Genre Productions: Idea Sandbox

I started this thread separately in response to R5's recent thread on another topic (SSH), talking about genre productions and seeing if anything can be done collectively as a group. His original post is as follows:


All of the JonX related sites, supersexyheroines, ultrasexyheroines, superheroinehq, etc. are all either way overdue for updates, or MIA. It might be tempting to explain this as recent personal problems -- we all know (and I hope are respectful) of cases when members of the community have been hit by unexpected health or family problems that have seen them take time out from online activities -- yet these sites started to run into problems a long while back. I think it's just a case of trying to do too many things all at once. Too much enthusiasm!

I don't want to criticise JonX, because I'm sure he didn't go into any of these ventures with the intention of getting rich. It looks like he has merely fallen foul of the catch 22 which plagues communities like our own: we can't have professional quality content unless somebody pays, but there aren't enough paying souls to fund someone to make professional content full time. So we end up with hobbyists (as JonX describes himself) trying to find ways of funding the hobby. In a way I applaud these people: they get off their backsides, book the models, hire the studios, and create the web sites which really give a boost to our community. The problems is real life has a habit of getting in the way, and hobbies are always the first casualty of any hiccup in someone's personal life. This wouldn't be a problem, if it wasn't for the paying customers. People will only cut you so much slack, particularly if several updates are missed without even so much as a 140 character tweet of explanation.

I've thought for a long time we (as a community) need to get a little inventive with the way we fund these professional productions. Random's idea of charging per content package works well for the paying punter, but I'm sure there's a large element of risk for Random personally(?), which I think is unfair.

I have some ideas on how we, as a community, might work together to create better ways of funding professional quality content, but none of them are perfect, so I'll save them for a future message perhaps. But I would like to hear what others have to say. Do you think the pay site model is a good one, given the size of our community? Is Random's per-package model better, is it fair for both consumer and producer? Are there even better ways we could share the burden of funding professional content in a sustainable way?

Please feel free to voice your opinions and/or ideas...it might not get us anywhere, but at least it's a sounding board for our community and maybe fodder for some of the pay-site producers out there.

five_red wrote:

All of the JonX related sites, supersexyheroines, ultrasexyheroines, superheroinehq, etc. are all either way overdue for updates, or MIA. It might be tempting to explain this as recent personal problems -- we all know (and I hope are respectful) of cases when members of the community have been hit by unexpected health or family problems that have seen them take time out from online activities -- yet these sites started to run into problems a long while back. I think it's just a case of trying to do too many things all at once. Too much enthusiasm!

I don't want to criticise JonX, because I'm sure he didn't go into any of these ventures with the intention of getting rich. It looks like he has merely fallen foul of the catch 22 which plagues communities like our own: we can't have professional quality content unless somebody pays, but there aren't enough paying souls to fund someone to make professional content full time. So we end up with hobbyists (as JonX describes himself) trying to find ways of funding the hobby. In a way I applaud these people: they get off their backsides, book the models, hire the studios, and create the web sites which really give a boost to our community. The problems is real life has a habit of getting in the way, and hobbies are always the first casualty of any hiccup in someone's personal life. This wouldn't be a problem, if it wasn't for the paying customers. People will only cut you so much slack, particularly if several updates are missed without even so much as a 140 character tweet of explanation.

Everyone has personal issues to deal with, and we have not a clue if anything (family/work/health) is going on with JonX, and if something is at play, I truly hope it gets better soon. That said, if he cannot live up to expectations that are set via his marketing (the site repeatedly mentions weekly updates), it should be temporarily shuttered until things can be worked out, or -- at a minimum post that updates are suspended. When I was working with SierraSteele.com a while ago, a similar situation arose, and I like to think she did the noble thing by closing the site until things could be worked out (unfortunately they never did). This is a similar situation. The updates are rare and certainly not timely (not to mention post-dated), and there is NO COMMUNICATION whatsoever, despite 4 websites, a twitter account, a facebook account, etc. And the hobbyist excuse is just lame, I'm sorry. It's understood that none of the fulltime genre producers (JonX, CDR, Random, Bully) do this for a living as their only source of income, but I would call them a hobbyist as much as I would call LeBron an amateur athlete. JonX's love of the genre (and the others') is genuine (like Lebron's love of basketball), and I do not doubt that for a second. However, when you start charging -- especially with subscription based services -- the hobbyist label doesn't carry much weight, at least with me. A hobby to me is a passionate endeavour that you typically spend money on with nothing more than the satisfaction of enjoyment or sharing with other of similar likes. Dusty and Sarge (and there are others) -- to me -- are great examples of hobbyists in this genre, as they repeatedly share their hard works and/or commissions freely. Sorry for the rant....I'm kinda droning on here...

five_red wrote:

I've thought for a long time we (as a community) need to get a little inventive with the way we fund these professional productions. Random's idea of charging per content package works well for the paying punter, but I'm sure there's a large element of risk for Random personally(?), which I think is unfair.

Based on the point above as none of these producers being FT "supergirl video pros", we can assume that regular updates are sketchy or at a minimum, difficult for the producers. If you look at the sites' update dates, most are pretty erratic. In my mind, that is very difficult for the consumer to tolerate without beginning to bitch if they are paying monthly and expecting "regular" updates. Because of this, I think "pay for download" content is definitely the way to go and puts far les stress on the producers. As recent as 3-4 years ago, that wasn't really an option without a lot of coding knowledge but now there are MULTIPLE vendors that can handle "purchased downloads" very easily.

five_red wrote:
I have some ideas on how we, as a community, might work together to create better ways of funding professional quality content, but none of them are perfect, so I'll save them for a future message perhaps. But I would like to hear what others have to say. Do you think the pay site model is a good one, given the size of our community? Is Random's per-package model better, is it fair for both consumer and producer? Are there even better ways we could share the burden of funding professional content in a sustainable way?

To me, this is a slippery slope....I would love nothing more than to do a "community-produced" video/movie, but there are so many logistics at play. I've thought about how to make that work, but sadly, I cannot think of a good way, based on the following "issues":

1. It's pricey
For a genre-produced film, you've have at least costume costs, model costs, and general production costs. Knowing what I know from The Awakening and working with Steeles and Sierra. You're looking at a MINIMUM of $250 for the costume and then probably $250 a DAY for a hot model/actress. Assuming a 7-day shoot for a 30 min film, that's $2000 and you haven't shot one second of film yet. Add on location costs, permits, extras, props, editting costs, etc. It adds up quick!

2. Who would pay?
So for discussion purposes, say we got the cost finalized....how would we pay for it? In an ideal world (or socialist world?), each member of SWM would contribute X dollars toward the production of a film but this will happen when pigs fly. SWM has 1000 visitors a day, and I would say prob no more than 50 contribute to the forum (which is free). Maybe some more would open up the purse strings, but my experience is people most likely would not. This is a route like KickStarter or Crowdfunding and you might solicit some help outside the genre, but I would think if you cannot raise the money from die-hards like us, it'll be difficult to outsiders.

3. Who would do it?
This is another sticky one in that we probably have enough "talent" (writers, people with costumes, producers, directors, FX people) that could do it, but there lies the problem in that how do we coordinate those people if we split up the project. Alternatively, we could "hire" within the genre to someone like Bully or Random that could conceivably do it, but do they have the time? And how would we compensate them? And how do we choose who gets the bid?

I would think another alternative would be to "go outside" and have some independent producer do it. But do we trust him with the money we've raised. Will they "get" what we are looking for?

4. Who would benefit?
OK, once done, who would see it? Do we simply release it to the SWM Community for everyone -- including the 90% who contributed not a dime? Not that it would bother me, but it might make contributors jaded for "next time".

Sorry, if I seem like a gloomy gus over here. I LOVE the idea, and one of the fantasies I had when starting SGI was an ubergirl think-tank and production house like this, so I'm in if we could get something off the ground and people buying in....

My $.03
ElF

I have to say that I don't like what I'm about to write.
I have to agree with LFan about the possibility of a joint community project. It's not impossible but there are tons of tricky detail, each one with the potential of stalling the entire thing for a long while. Ideas are probably the only thing we have in spades, the triccky part is figuring out the how rather than the what.

Also I want to point out one little infamous detail, each author of this community has his/hers own style and preferences. Some went for established characters, others prefer to use originals or creator owned etc. Mixing together all these ideas will be incredibly complicated and will most likely cause a lot of disappointment.

I've been thinking about this issue off and on for years now, and I still can't come up with a perfect way to fund superheroine productions. I do agree, however, the subscription model seems to be very problematic, and should be avoided unless the site has a strong team of people who can cover for each other when personal issues arise. I also agree, communication is the key to keeping paying customers happy. Also, I might add, not getting too enthusiastic and starting half a dozen sites at once does help.

Let me throw out a few ideas I've had -- imperfect as they are -- to see if someone might be inspired. It must be noted, I do this in TOTAL IGNORANCE of the production costs, difficulties, etc. of actually producing videos/photos. Hopefully those members on this forum who have first hand knowledge of such things will be tactful enough to correct my mistakes without making me look too foolish

There was a site a while back, can't remember its name, where people could come together to buy stuff online at really low prices through the power of bulk buying. No product was bought and nobody got charged until enough people had signed up to buy at the reduced bulk price. So, my idea is producers put up scripts or plot outlines along with a cost, and punters pledge their $10 or whatever. Only when enough people have pledged their cash, does the money get collected and the given movie/photos goes into production.

Edit: Crowdfunder I wasn't aware of. Could this be used by Random et al to fund their movies up front?

GOOD POINTS: Punters know what they are getting (they're voting with their wallets on scripts they like!) and might actually campaign on forums for scripts they want made. Producers get the money up front.

BAD POINT: Logistically, is it possible to not actually charge someone's credit card until enough pledges have been made? Can we make use of some existing online site to do this? Or would producers have to rely on the honesty of punters to cough up the cash once the total had been met? If so, what do you do about people who pledge but don't actually pay? Isn't this all just too much messing about?

Adapting the idea: what if we have only a limited number of punters, who shared in the takings of the movie? (Investors not punters, I guess). So the producer says "How does everyone feel about a bionic woman video, say 10 minutes long. I think I'll need $750". So lindsey_wagner_fan_1981 responds "I'll pay $200 of the production costs, if you put in a scene where she lifts the guy off the floor with one arm, and at least two slow-mo running scenes!" The video is made, using the suggestions of the 'investors', and as the sales come in each investor is given back their cash.

GOOD POINTS: Again, producer is paid up front. The 'investors' get to have a say in the content of the movie, and they stand a chance of getting all their money back if it recovers its costs. (Any profit could be split between investors, or simply kept by the producer to help fund future projects.) Might be an useful way for people with minority interests (eg. matchsticks between toes) to get in on the action if the right story idea came along.

BAD POINTS: Producers no longer in total control of the script. This might work if a lot of fans of a particular genre came together to fund a given type of script, but what if people had conflicting demands? Would inventors become TOO demanding? Wouldn't the bondage/humiliation fans dominate (excuse the pun) because their particular 'thing' is so 'bankable'? Again, more trouble than it's worth?

One final idea, not entirely related: it has come to my attention a lot of fans actually clip just the best bits from videos -- eg. Fonzie recently posted a load of movies to Yahoo groups which are just the Wonder Woman transformation bits, and just the Bionic Woman action scenes from each episode. Rather than do full on plot driven stories, might it be more profitable to produce short 'sketch' based videos packed with lots of bionic action (but no plot), or lots of She-Hulk-outs in varying situations, or lots of "Oh no Kryptonite, you fiend!!!" action, etc. These can pander directly to specific groups (although not TOO specific), giving them a big bang-for-the buck. (Presumably a given video can be turned out quickly, as it would be just variations on the same thing in different sketches?)

The profit from these sketch based videos could then be used to help fund full plot based videos, ensuring less of the financial risk for the producer. Kind of like the way book publishers churn out lots of deliberately popular novels to help fund their more prestigious/substantial works? (Of course, I am aware of the fact this idea means producers may be churning out a lot of stuff they aren't too interested in, to fund the stuff they are -- is that really fair, given they are 'hobbyists'?)

So those are my ideas. None of them is perfect. I throw them out there only to invite debate -- and in the hope someone might be able to salvage a shred of a decent idea from my ramblings

I'll trump your "interesting quote" with another "interesting quote" comment!

Agree with your assessment of costs and production, as well as their profits. Like you said, they wouldn't be around for 4+ years if they weren't making money from it. While they don't don't make money hand-over-fist, there are profits being taking home, I'm sure. That said, they deserve profits, as THEY are the ones sticking their necks out and actually DOING it -- assuming the risks of production costs with no "guarantee" they'll recoup their money back, though I think they have a good gauge of our "market" and can forecast sales fairly well after all this time.

Speaking of our market, I personally thought your quote regarding bitterness was interesting. Personally speaking, I harbor no bitterness towards other fetish sites. To each his own and while that stuff is not my cup of tea, I harbor no bitterness towards them or wish their sites to be taken down. As for the girl winning all the time, it does become trite after a while, but I think a good majority of the genre producers produce bits where the supergirl has to overcome some challenge. While I think that 95% of the faithful readers prefer the (uber)girl to win in the end, I think there are ALOT of people like you that prefer for the girl to be challenged -- if not beaten in combat -- before rising up to win. When I write, I'll admit my protagonists aren't challenged that often but sometimes they are -- hell, I even killed the main superfem character in one of them!

Not having "peril or bondage stuff" on the site is just a content decision and isn't meant to publicly deride that fetish (eventhough it's not for me). If I gave that impression, I apologize.

In terms of a production, if it's a longer feature (>30mins or so), I agree and think a more traditional "conflict/resolution" storyline would be wiser than just a ubergirl "smashfest" -- though I think there are opportunities to showcase plenty of feats. I like to think THE AWAKENING was a good representation of a more traditional story that featured a great amount of uberness "eyecandy" for everyone.

zebra5 wrote: Interesting stuff. Here's my opinion:

Firstly this side of the genre is not as small as some of you think. If somebody can run a subscription site for 5 years then they are at least getting their money back and probably making some form of profit. In the case of SSH I think there must have been an expectation of continual growth which did not materialise, and by the time it was clear it wouldn't materialise 4 sites had been set up. It would have been more profitable to stick to the one site and deliver more content there, but a lot of people expand too quickly in business.

Production is expensive, I think some of the estimations are way low. I suppose once you've paid for the costume you can go on using it but I costs depend upon how good you want it to be. The best thing you could do is approach a known producer with a custom idea, he might charge $1000 or whatever so if 10 of you can agree then it's a goer. He will probably then look to sell it on his site because what you have paid probably only covers costs, and I suppose he has to decide if there are enough people in this community that he can earn a few hundred or so over time... probably.

I love all the Steele stuff and enjoy a lot of PSW, I've also been a member of SSH for a long time (not recently), I've thrown a couple of grand at this part of the genre in the last 5 years, but I don't feel I'm exactly 'one of you' I am a moderate. You see I always get the feeling when I come here that you think people either agree with you or they hate women and only enjoy vids where they are raped etc... I sense a lot of bitterness about that and I can tell you that those people don't even think about you guys at all. I'm not suggesting you have anything to do with that stuff, there are in fact hundreds of people who do buy from sources here and others who don't mind you wins, want to see a good story and good action. If you wrote something which wasn't merely ubergirl relentlessly steamrollering guys, but perhaps bent a little to her having the upper hand 70% of the time, a period of difficulty, but still emerging victorious, then it would be something a producer would feel far more confident of selling once any custom was paid for.

Something to consider if you are looking to get something high quality off the ground, I can think of people who would produce that.

zebra5 wrote: All good points. To qualify the 'bitterness' comment: Firstly it wasn't directed at anyone in particular, I've just occasionally got the vibe that people feel as though the hardline peril fetish was in some way holding back or negatively effecting what you'd want to see here. Possibly that's because no doubt you've run into an email or three from someone who wants to see your favourite ubergirl badly defeated, so I can see why it might be annoying, but honestly, they can do their thing and you can do yours. I was just suggesting from a producers point of view he would be looking to sell on the product and it would be more attractive to be able to sell to a wider market, even lowering the costs on your side if it were a good idea.

I can't speak for the others, but what bugs me about peril is that it look to me as a very cheap way to reaffirm male ego. Pretty much you take the most powerful (and therefore authoritative) girl around and pretty much humiliate her over and over. Maybe it's because I never had issues with authoritative women, but I really can't see the attractiveness of this. Women had (and some times still are) been threated as second class people for a long time, I really can't see the need to perpetauate this behaviour.

zebra5 wrote: Equally you guys don't want to make something so diluted you lose interest in it. I enjoyed The Awakening a lot, can't believe what they managed to do with the money they had. However, it took a long time to make (hairstyle continuity was a particular issue ) and my gripe from the perspective I came at it was no physical showdown between the two main females. Maybe people here wouldn't have been interested in that though.

A good way not to diluite the content might be to use a limited number of authors, even only one. Perhaps a way might be to held a contest, like a workshop, where concepts are evaluated before giving them to the writers team.
But,as I said before, this is the easy part, thanks to the Net we can coordinate even between different continents. With the following steps it won't be that easy.

Perhaps an interesting "feeler" would be to do a workshop consisting of a "10 minute screenplay" (rule of thumb is one minute per screenplay page). THEN.... instead of voting for your favorite, you bid $X on how much you'd chip in to see that script filmed. You could vote more than once, so for example, I'd pledge $10 to see Story A but I'd pledge $100 to see Story F.

The pitfalls I see would be the possiblity of filming something that might be undoable (for most directors) production-wise. Meaning Script XYZ has a train crashing into Supergirl or something that is kinda "complex" to pull off.

I dunno...just spit-balling here....

ElF

one thing that i have noticed that we are all talking about live production stuff, what are the views on animation either 3d or 2d stuff, i would be in a better position to fund something like a 20 min animation in our genre rather than a 3 or 5 min live video, the other advantage with animation is that there is no limit to what can be done by the mighty pen.

fats

fats wrote: one thing that i have noticed that we are all talking about live production stuff, what are the views on animation either 3d or 2d stuff, i would be in a better position to fund something like a 20 min animation in our genre rather than a 3 or 5 min live video, the other advantage with animation is that there is no limit to what can be done by the mighty pen.

fats

The animation route might be a good idea if we can get our hands on someone skilled enough. The only one I can think about are Dusty and Shin (from the Power Girls japanese site), but Dusty left a few months ago and I don't know anything about Shin.

From an animation standpoint, CDR is the best IMO. He is doing some amazing stuff and is on the cusp of another release called Galactic Guardians. I've seen it and it is incredible! More to come here....and I'll see if I can get him to post here..

ElF