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Shirt rips return to Supergirl in 5x13 (episode 100)
08 Dec 2019 14:57 - 08 Dec 2019 14:59 #65816
by five_red
Shirt rips return to Supergirl in 5x13 (episode 100) was created by five_red
Last edit: 08 Dec 2019 14:59 by five_red.
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19 Dec 2019 16:56 - 19 Dec 2019 16:56 #65959
by Random321
Replied by Random321 on topic Shirt rips return to Supergirl in 5x13 (episode 100)
I don't know... ...don't you get the feeling they are just killing off the alter ego secret going forward? [sniffle - sob]
Last edit: 19 Dec 2019 16:56 by Random321.
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19 Dec 2019 17:06 #65960
by murdough
It's starting to look that way. Hell, Superman recently outed himself as Clark Kent in the comics.
Replied by murdough on topic Shirt rips return to Supergirl in 5x13 (episode 100)
Random321 wrote: I don't know... ...don't you get the feeling they are just killing off the alter ego secret going forward? [sniffle - sob]
It's starting to look that way. Hell, Superman recently outed himself as Clark Kent in the comics.
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19 Dec 2019 18:09 #65962
by shadar
Time moves forward... I remember when entire episodes of comics were focused on just maintaining their secret identities, which were portrayed as essential to help Kryptonians to think like, act like and feel like humans. It was always critical in the comics that Kryptonians not become egotistical, narcissistic, self-centered monsters with no regard for human culture and tradition. That was correctly portrayed as the worst-case outcome, and having to live and act and love like a human was the antidote. From the 50's through the turn-of-the-century, that was what people cared about, for reasons that we could debate.
But what is clear is that kind of behavior is now celebrated among celebrities and politicians. The culture has changed, even reversed, as it does over time.
So it's no surprise that our fantasy characters, ala current TV shows, movies and comics, have changed to reflect the change in culture.
Superman was kept humble because of the following truism about power:
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Replied by shadar on topic Shirt rips return to Supergirl in 5x13 (episode 100)
murdough wrote:
Random321 wrote: I don't know... ...don't you get the feeling they are just killing off the alter ego secret going forward? [sniffle - sob]
It's starting to look that way. Hell, Superman recently outed himself as Clark Kent in the comics.
Time moves forward... I remember when entire episodes of comics were focused on just maintaining their secret identities, which were portrayed as essential to help Kryptonians to think like, act like and feel like humans. It was always critical in the comics that Kryptonians not become egotistical, narcissistic, self-centered monsters with no regard for human culture and tradition. That was correctly portrayed as the worst-case outcome, and having to live and act and love like a human was the antidote. From the 50's through the turn-of-the-century, that was what people cared about, for reasons that we could debate.
But what is clear is that kind of behavior is now celebrated among celebrities and politicians. The culture has changed, even reversed, as it does over time.
So it's no surprise that our fantasy characters, ala current TV shows, movies and comics, have changed to reflect the change in culture.
Superman was kept humble because of the following truism about power:
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19 Dec 2019 19:19 #65966
by Random321
Replied by Random321 on topic Shirt rips return to Supergirl in 5x13 (episode 100)
I'm reminded of "Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely." with Superman being the fictional exception to prove the rule or the example of a hope that someone who can move beyond the human condition of ego could handle absolute power.
If we are talking about Kryptonian migration I hear what you are saying about adapting to the norms of human cultures and expectations changing (or not). Then again "The more things change the more they stay the same."
However, I've always seen the alter ego as a personal need to the superpower endowed person. On public radio yesterday they were interviewing the daughter of Julie Andrews (Mary Poppins) and she commented how she hid who her mother was to people she would meet as long as she could because she wanted to have a relationship based on her not, her mom or, the chance to come to her house and see her mom. You can imagine I went, "Hmm, there is an often used story line there." I can imagine an alien/hero wanting to be liked/loved/befriended for their nature not just because they are different or could do relatively fantastic things. There are plenty of humans that hide their special skills or connections because they want to choose how they are judged so I still see the alter ego as relevant to all of us today. I would also argue Kryptonian culture, spirits, souls, and needs as written are not that distant from human ones.
I for one wouldn't mind a return to a little more humility among the heroes otherwise all you get is dark supergirl, reverse supergirl, evil supergirl, batman who laughs supergirl, berserker supergirl, and dead civilians as superman blasts down the crystal canyons of major cities.
If we are talking about Kryptonian migration I hear what you are saying about adapting to the norms of human cultures and expectations changing (or not). Then again "The more things change the more they stay the same."
However, I've always seen the alter ego as a personal need to the superpower endowed person. On public radio yesterday they were interviewing the daughter of Julie Andrews (Mary Poppins) and she commented how she hid who her mother was to people she would meet as long as she could because she wanted to have a relationship based on her not, her mom or, the chance to come to her house and see her mom. You can imagine I went, "Hmm, there is an often used story line there." I can imagine an alien/hero wanting to be liked/loved/befriended for their nature not just because they are different or could do relatively fantastic things. There are plenty of humans that hide their special skills or connections because they want to choose how they are judged so I still see the alter ego as relevant to all of us today. I would also argue Kryptonian culture, spirits, souls, and needs as written are not that distant from human ones.
I for one wouldn't mind a return to a little more humility among the heroes otherwise all you get is dark supergirl, reverse supergirl, evil supergirl, batman who laughs supergirl, berserker supergirl, and dead civilians as superman blasts down the crystal canyons of major cities.
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19 Dec 2019 20:41 - 19 Dec 2019 20:51 #65968
by Monty
It's a hard one to call on this.
It may be just an injection of a new idea into Melissa's storyline, but with a twist .... or it could just be be a media stunt in the open air in Vancouver simply to enliven publicity in the show. It's garnering conversation here already (which is to be expected and respected!)
ETA I said more about the possible 'twist' in the original post, but edited it out.
Replied by Monty on topic Shirt rips return to Supergirl in 5x13 (episode 100)
Random321 wrote: I don't know... ...don't you get the feeling they are just killing off the alter ego secret going forward? [sniffle - sob]
It's a hard one to call on this.
It may be just an injection of a new idea into Melissa's storyline, but with a twist .... or it could just be be a media stunt in the open air in Vancouver simply to enliven publicity in the show. It's garnering conversation here already (which is to be expected and respected!)
ETA I said more about the possible 'twist' in the original post, but edited it out.
Last edit: 19 Dec 2019 20:51 by Monty.
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19 Dec 2019 23:41 #65971
by Agent00Soul
Replied by Agent00Soul on topic Shirt rips return to Supergirl in 5x13 (episode 100)
It started going out of style I think since Chris Claremont's run on the X-Men I think. Fewer and fewer superheroes since then have had a secret ID. Ones that kept them are more like a legacy to an earlier era. Don't people know that Peter Parker is Spiderman these days too in the comics?
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19 Dec 2019 23:53 #65972
by Raa
Replied by Raa on topic Shirt rips return to Supergirl in 5x13 (episode 100)
Peter Parker, in the comics, ID is secret again. If I recall right, he had to make a deal with the devil for it to happen. At the same time, his marriage to MJ was undone.
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20 Dec 2019 00:04 #65973
by Agent00Soul
Wow - that's a pretty awful plotline!
Replied by Agent00Soul on topic Shirt rips return to Supergirl in 5x13 (episode 100)
Raa wrote: Peter Parker, in the comics, ID is secret again. If I recall right, he had to make a deal with the devil for it to happen. At the same time, his marriage to MJ was undone.
Wow - that's a pretty awful plotline!
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20 Dec 2019 03:54 #65976
by murdough
Yeah it was in the aftermath of the Civil War event in 2007. Peter's ID was in the open and he was on the run after deciding to side against registration. a sniper shot Aunt May on the Kingpin's orders critically wounded her and there was no way to save her. so Peter made a deal with Mephisto, though there was a price, namely Peter's marriage. after hours of agonizing over the decision, he and Mary Jane agree on the condition that the public knowledge of his identity is also erased. right before the changes take effect, Mephisto takes another shot at them, revealing that they would've had a daughter, though now she'll never exist due to the choice they made. flash of light and Peter wakes up in his bed with no memory of what had just happened. it's later explained that in the new reality, he and Mary Jane had been engaged for a time, but they had broken up before the wedding. on top of that, while he had revealed his identity to the world during the Civil War, after he changed sides, he convinced Doctor Strange to do a spell erasing that knowledge. another consequence of the deal was that Harry Osborn, who'd been dead since '93 was alive and well again.
needless to say it was a controversial move, driven largely by Marvel's Editor-in-Chief at the time, Joe Quesada's dislike of the marriage. Quesada co-wrote the storyline with J. Michael Straczynski, who was one of the Spider-Man writers at the time. Straczynski disagreed strongly with the direction of the story and very nearly considered requesting his name not be credited for the final two issues, though Quesada convinced him not to. it was just an overall mess that they're still working to recover from, even 12 years later
Replied by murdough on topic Shirt rips return to Supergirl in 5x13 (episode 100)
Agent00Soul wrote:
Raa wrote: Peter Parker, in the comics, ID is secret again. If I recall right, he had to make a deal with the devil for it to happen. At the same time, his marriage to MJ was undone.
Wow - that's a pretty awful plotline!
Yeah it was in the aftermath of the Civil War event in 2007. Peter's ID was in the open and he was on the run after deciding to side against registration. a sniper shot Aunt May on the Kingpin's orders critically wounded her and there was no way to save her. so Peter made a deal with Mephisto, though there was a price, namely Peter's marriage. after hours of agonizing over the decision, he and Mary Jane agree on the condition that the public knowledge of his identity is also erased. right before the changes take effect, Mephisto takes another shot at them, revealing that they would've had a daughter, though now she'll never exist due to the choice they made. flash of light and Peter wakes up in his bed with no memory of what had just happened. it's later explained that in the new reality, he and Mary Jane had been engaged for a time, but they had broken up before the wedding. on top of that, while he had revealed his identity to the world during the Civil War, after he changed sides, he convinced Doctor Strange to do a spell erasing that knowledge. another consequence of the deal was that Harry Osborn, who'd been dead since '93 was alive and well again.
needless to say it was a controversial move, driven largely by Marvel's Editor-in-Chief at the time, Joe Quesada's dislike of the marriage. Quesada co-wrote the storyline with J. Michael Straczynski, who was one of the Spider-Man writers at the time. Straczynski disagreed strongly with the direction of the story and very nearly considered requesting his name not be credited for the final two issues, though Quesada convinced him not to. it was just an overall mess that they're still working to recover from, even 12 years later
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20 Dec 2019 04:39 #65977
by five_red
Replied by five_red on topic Shirt rips return to Supergirl in 5x13 (episode 100)
For me the analogy that fits the modern comicbook world most accurately is that of ancient god mythology.
Legends of ancient Norse, Egyptian, and other gods are based around casts of fantastical characters who share the same world as us mere mortal humans, but don't really have any connection to us. Instead they carry on like characters in a celestial soap opera, falling in love, bickering, cheating, waging war against each other... all while us mortals watch from the side-lines, either with bemusement or fear of becoming collateral damage in their conflicts.
If you took the myths of the Roman gods, Greek gods, Norse gods, Egyptian gods (or whoever), and you changed all the gods to mutants or aliens, you'd pretty much have exactly what you see in the modern Marvel and DC universes. Since comics moved towards direct sales in the 1980s, and cultivated a more mature audience (rather than 9 year-olds), the situation has gotten worse, The giant cross-over events that now dominate the genre are just like the huge battles that defined ancient god myths, where huge casts of super-beings repeatedly battled it out across the heavens as humans looked on powerless.
The secret identity is a relic of the age before superheroes became gods -- an age when superheroes were still largely defined as just humans with extraordinary abilities, when they still had a connection to us mere mortals. But in the modern age, where superhero stories are like ancient god myths, there's little need for a character to maintain a mere mortal identity. I mean, Zeus didn't secretly maintain a job as a mild mannered reporter, and Venus never donned a wig and moonlighted as a mousy student in a local high school.
R5
Legends of ancient Norse, Egyptian, and other gods are based around casts of fantastical characters who share the same world as us mere mortal humans, but don't really have any connection to us. Instead they carry on like characters in a celestial soap opera, falling in love, bickering, cheating, waging war against each other... all while us mortals watch from the side-lines, either with bemusement or fear of becoming collateral damage in their conflicts.
If you took the myths of the Roman gods, Greek gods, Norse gods, Egyptian gods (or whoever), and you changed all the gods to mutants or aliens, you'd pretty much have exactly what you see in the modern Marvel and DC universes. Since comics moved towards direct sales in the 1980s, and cultivated a more mature audience (rather than 9 year-olds), the situation has gotten worse, The giant cross-over events that now dominate the genre are just like the huge battles that defined ancient god myths, where huge casts of super-beings repeatedly battled it out across the heavens as humans looked on powerless.
The secret identity is a relic of the age before superheroes became gods -- an age when superheroes were still largely defined as just humans with extraordinary abilities, when they still had a connection to us mere mortals. But in the modern age, where superhero stories are like ancient god myths, there's little need for a character to maintain a mere mortal identity. I mean, Zeus didn't secretly maintain a job as a mild mannered reporter, and Venus never donned a wig and moonlighted as a mousy student in a local high school.
R5
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20 Dec 2019 05:40 - 20 Dec 2019 05:42 #65978
by shadar
I think this is what hooked me early on, and still has its appeal to me, although it's clear that tastes have changed. I've always emphasized that my characters still think exactly like humans, and are subspecies of humans, even if they come from space.
They are us except for being genetically engineered for special abilities and coming from different cultures.
The only connection to "gods" that I enjoy is to maybe take a loose spin off old Norse (ala Valkyries) or perhaps the Amazons being created by Zeus. But the gods are gone leaving these offspring of human and god that have powers, but otherwise are living a thoroughly modern, human-like existence -- most of the time.
Which makes their use of their powers more interesting, IMHO.
Shadar
Replied by shadar on topic Shirt rips return to Supergirl in 5x13 (episode 100)
five_red wrote: For me the analogy that fits the modern comicbook world most accurately is that of ancient god mythology.
.
.
.
The secret identity is a relic of the age before superheroes became gods -- an age when superheroes were still largely defined as just humans with extraordinary abilities, when they still had a connection to us mere mortals.
.
.
.
R5
I think this is what hooked me early on, and still has its appeal to me, although it's clear that tastes have changed. I've always emphasized that my characters still think exactly like humans, and are subspecies of humans, even if they come from space.
They are us except for being genetically engineered for special abilities and coming from different cultures.
The only connection to "gods" that I enjoy is to maybe take a loose spin off old Norse (ala Valkyries) or perhaps the Amazons being created by Zeus. But the gods are gone leaving these offspring of human and god that have powers, but otherwise are living a thoroughly modern, human-like existence -- most of the time.
Which makes their use of their powers more interesting, IMHO.
Shadar
Last edit: 20 Dec 2019 05:42 by shadar.
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20 Dec 2019 12:00 #65983
by Markiehoe
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Replied by Markiehoe on topic Shirt rips return to Supergirl in 5x13 (episode 100)
I am glad you guys brought up the ancient Myths that modern comics are based on.
One of my all time favorite movies is The Golden Voyage of Sinbad.
The part that always stuck with me was when the Oracle states that "Weak and mortal men can tip the scales."
And of course later the Black Prince wounds the good Griffin when he is fighting the evil Centaur.
Tipping the scales towards evil.
Then Sinbad and his men defeat the Centaur at great cost restoring the balance.
Weak and Mortal men tipping the scales.
All of my favorite stories about Superheroes and even in Sci Fy and Fantasy have a Human element which is very important to me.
The "Goddess Domination" sub genre of Superheroines has little to no interest for me.
And to touch on the other thread about costumes.
You find the right actors and they can fill out the costumes.
One of my all time favorite movies is The Golden Voyage of Sinbad.
The part that always stuck with me was when the Oracle states that "Weak and mortal men can tip the scales."
And of course later the Black Prince wounds the good Griffin when he is fighting the evil Centaur.
Tipping the scales towards evil.
Then Sinbad and his men defeat the Centaur at great cost restoring the balance.
Weak and Mortal men tipping the scales.
All of my favorite stories about Superheroes and even in Sci Fy and Fantasy have a Human element which is very important to me.
The "Goddess Domination" sub genre of Superheroines has little to no interest for me.
And to touch on the other thread about costumes.
You find the right actors and they can fill out the costumes.
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