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Conversation on adding stories from AK archive

14 Jan 2017 19:03 #52068 by willow
Has anyone actually spoken to AK recently or know how to contact them? The last I recall seeing even on this forum was that AK disappeared years ago, and no one has anyway to contact the person.
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14 Jan 2017 19:41 #52069 by shadar

willow wrote: Has anyone actually spoken to AK recently or know how to contact them? The last I recall seeing even on this forum was that AK disappeared years ago, and no one has anyway to contact the person.


Per my last contact with him (years ago), he didn't want to be found. By anyone.
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14 Jan 2017 20:10 #52070 by Woodclaw
Replied by Woodclaw on topic Conversation on adding stories from AK archive

shadar wrote:

willow wrote: Has anyone actually spoken to AK recently or know how to contact them? The last I recall seeing even on this forum was that AK disappeared years ago, and no one has anyway to contact the person.


Per my last contact with him (years ago), he didn't want to be found. By anyone.


That's kind of the point. The general rule on SWM is that the author retains the right to publish, unpublish and change his work as he see fits (although I have the habit of meddling in this process, sorry). Hence unless there's the explicit permission I'm kind of hesitant to republish a series that was never part of the SWM or SGInc library. It's true that AK published two extract of Superior Girl on SGInc under the title "The Non-Adventures of Superwoman", but that's hardly a precedent.
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15 Jan 2017 01:36 #52073 by shadar

Woodclaw wrote:

shadar wrote:

willow wrote: Has anyone actually spoken to AK recently or know how to contact them? The last I recall seeing even on this forum was that AK disappeared years ago, and no one has anyway to contact the person.


Per my last contact with him (years ago), he didn't want to be found. By anyone.


That's kind of the point. The general rule on SWM is that the author retains the right to publish, unpublish and change his work as he see fits (although I have the habit of meddling in this process, sorry). Hence unless there's the explicit permission I'm kind of hesitant to republish a series that was never part of the SWM or SGInc library. It's true that AK published two extract of Superior Girl on SGInc under the title "The Non-Adventures of Superwoman", but that's hardly a precedent.


AK and I sometimes plotted our stories together over beer and bad Mexican food, so I know him better than most people. I don't think he'd want his work published here or anywhere else. I think when he was done writing, he would have preferred that all his stories went away with him.

This is my guess based on what I know about him personally from the late 90's.

Odds are you could get away with doing whatever you wanted with his stories. I'm not sure anyone other than myself knows who AK really is. But you are (very properly) trying to judge the author's intent, thus my opinion.
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15 Jan 2017 01:38 #52074 by willow
Have to say that I would be fascinated to know why he felt this way. I can understand a desire for privacy, but am curious what led him to disappear so completely from the "community," so to speak.
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15 Jan 2017 01:48 #52076 by fats
I take a slightly different view as a reader rather than a writer, I would love to see the old stuff, being available.

One of the biggest conversations we should have is should we host old/dead stuff here or not.

Fats
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15 Jan 2017 02:11 #52077 by shadar

willow wrote: Have to say that I would be fascinated to know why he felt this way. I can understand a desire for privacy, but am curious what led him to disappear so completely from the "community," so to speak.


AK, like many of us who grew up long before social media, lives in a world where one is not obligated to reveal their true identity to anyone. Where privacy can be one of the most important aspects of life.

Also, people often craft and recraft their lives over a long life. Multiple careers and changing areas of interest. I think he just decided to do something else.

There aren't many dinosaurs like me who hang on the fringes long after their productive period of writing is over.

That said, I believe I'm going to have a new story/old story to publish soon, either here or on Brantley's site or both. It's something of mine Brantley dug out of the Wayback from 13 years ago. Originally written as an homage to a very vital contributor to the AU who will forever remain anonymous, it caught my fancy again.

The new version still serves as an homage, but is written more to my current sensibilities and skills, and contains recent tweaks to the lore of the AU2-vintage Aurora Universe.
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15 Jan 2017 21:35 #52090 by brantley
Replied by brantley on topic Conversation on adding stories from AK archive
Looking forward to it.

--Brantley
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16 Jan 2017 09:32 #52102 by njae

fats wrote: I take a slightly different view as a reader rather than a writer, I would love to see the old stuff, being available.

One of the biggest conversations we should have is should we host old/dead stuff here or not.

Fats


This seems to be a tricky question. While it is understandable from the point that the site wants to show the biggest selection of genre-stories so that any reader could find them here.

The problem arises the moment the author sees it differently. If an author removes his work from the internet, he sends the message that he doesn't want it to be seen anymore. Reposting it without his consent because the author is no longer active seems like the wrong way to go here as it goes against the authors wishes.

And it's a slippery slope from there. Where's the difference between posting some old classics where the author has faded out and a normal story that was simply taken offline by the author. And from which site was it taken offline? Because if the story was removed by the author from SWM itself, this would be the precedence to simply reposting it once someone asks for it. Might as well flat-out deny the deletion then.

Or as a different comparison: One of the best ways to get in trouble on this site is to post or ask for pirated ubergirl content, especially the smaller productions. Is it really that big a difference with stories that their authors removed from the net? Sure, the stories are usually for free but they are still the authors' property. Therefore his consent is needed.


I can understand if the reader likes to see their favorite story online at all times. But the truth is that it's not their decision to make. The readers and the site staff(s) can only try and encourage the author to keep their work online and possibly publish more. If an author removes his work anybody can ask him/herself whether he/she really did that. In almost every case the answer will be no.
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16 Jan 2017 14:20 #52105 by Dru1076
This is proving to be an interesting conversation. I was very pleased to hear Fats was going to put the AK collection here. Those stories led to mine appearing online. I first starting writing this kind of stuff I was very young. And I mean VERY young. If I had not discovered the AU, the Other Voices bookshelf there, and AK's stories... There's no way I would have shared what at one point I thought was an inexplicable and totally unique fantasy.

I just have one question on whether or not these stories should be here. When AK left the scene, he could have removed his website. Did he wipe the site when he departed? Or did he just stop feeding it money?
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16 Jan 2017 14:53 #52106 by Dru1076
Well...anyway...the reason I ask is cuz if he didn't take direct deliberate steps to remove the content, then I say we should no doubt and no question at all have the stories here in the library.

However, if he did try to erase his site we should respect that.

If we don't know the answer to this question for sure, I say we go ahead and put them up. Those stories are pure classics and future SWManiacs deserve to read them. If AK does get in touch and ask us to remove them we can take them down then quick smart and in a hurry. As Jimmy Carr once said, it's easier to apologise than to get permission. This is especially true if the person whose permission you require isn't actually around to ask.

Whatever happens, I shall continue to guide any newbies I come across to the Wayback Machine so they can see the original site. It isn't like we would be publishing anything that is not still readily available. And it isn't like anyone will be making money off his stuff.
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16 Jan 2017 15:11 - 16 Jan 2017 15:16 #52107 by brantley
Replied by brantley on topic Conversation on adding stories from AK archive
AK apparently had a tripod site at one time, and an ubergirls site until 2005, when Ubergirls went down, and he let Lisa Binkley take his site over as a subdomain under Infinity Bridge. But she didn't want to keep that going, so Tarot Barnes took it over, and Tarot wished it off on me a year or two after that, only without Julie. Yet AK still had the Tripod site, and posted a story there a few years ago:

julievelor.tripod.com/GFK/artscent.html

There don't seem to be any other stories there, and there isn't any home page, just an announcement that JulieVelor had moved to Infinity Bridge. That may go back to before 1999, when S.T. Mac was still living, and had a sublink to AK's stories. Not sure just when he went with Ubergirls.

--Brantley
Last edit: 16 Jan 2017 15:16 by brantley.
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16 Jan 2017 15:39 #52108 by Woodclaw
Replied by Woodclaw on topic Conversation on adding stories from AK archive

Dru1076 wrote: Well...anyway...the reason I ask is cuz if he didn't take direct deliberate steps to remove the content, then I say we should no doubt and no question at all have the stories here in the library.

However, if he did try to erase his site we should respect that.

If we don't know the answer to this question for sure, I say we go ahead and put them up. Those stories are pure classics and future SWManiacs deserve to read them. If AK does get in touch and ask us to remove them we can take them down then quick smart and in a hurry. As Jimmy Carr once said, it's easier to apologise than to get permission. This is especially true if the person whose permission you require isn't actually around to ask.

Whatever happens, I shall continue to guide any newbies I come across to the Wayback Machine so they can see the original site. It isn't like we would be publishing anything that is not still readily available. And it isn't like anyone will be making money off his stuff.


I have no idea if the deletion was deleberate or not, but I have to disagree with the sentiment in the second half of your post, Dru. Even if it's easier to apologize it's not fair and often it's the worst thing to do because at that point any possible damage has already been done. I know that I might be too cautious, but I've seen many people getting very upset about art theft or republishing of their own material without explict permission.

brantley wrote: AK apparently had a tripod site at one time, and an ubergirls site until 2005, when Ubergirls went down, and he let Lisa Binkley take his site over as a subdomain under Infinity Bridge. But she didn't want to keep that going, so Tarot Barnes took it over, and Tarot wished it off on me a year or two after that, only without Julie. Yet AK still had the Tripod site, and posted a story there a few years ago:

julievelor.tripod.com/GFK/artscent.html

There don't seem to be any other stories there, and there isn't any home page, just an announcement that JulieVelor had moved to Infinity Bridge. That may go back to before 1999, when S.T. Mac was still living, and had a sublink to AK's stories. Not sure just when he went with Ubergirls.

--Brantley


As far as I know the tripod site was just a repository for a number of stories that never got to AK's original site (Ubermadchen and a couple of others) the pages that can be currently track down are ghost of that site since it too went offline a long time ago.
The only thing I can think of is that if those stories were part of the Infinity Bridge library, whoever handled it for a while might know a little more about AK's intentions.
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16 Jan 2017 16:05 #52109 by brantley
Replied by brantley on topic Conversation on adding stories from AK archive
I know he'd approved Lisa taking it over in 2005. I heard from him in 2010, when Tarot was rescuing Infinity Bridge, and referred him to Tarot. I'm not sure what came of that; I don't think there was any further communication pro or con.

--Brantley
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16 Jan 2017 16:09 - 16 Jan 2017 16:29 #52110 by Dru1076

Woodclaw wrote:

Dru1076 wrote: Well...anyway...the reason I ask is cuz if he didn't take direct deliberate steps to remove the content, then I say we should no doubt and no question at all have the stories here in the library.

However, if he did try to erase his site we should respect that.

If we don't know the answer to this question for sure, I say we go ahead and put them up. Those stories are pure classics and future SWManiacs deserve to read them. If AK does get in touch and ask us to remove them we can take them down then quick smart and in a hurry. As Jimmy Carr once said, it's easier to apologise than to get permission. This is especially true if the person whose permission you require isn't actually around to ask.

Whatever happens, I shall continue to guide any newbies I come across to the Wayback Machine so they can see the original site. It isn't like we would be publishing anything that is not still readily available. And it isn't like anyone will be making money off his stuff.


I have no idea if the deletion was deleberate or not, but I have to disagree with the sentiment in the second half of your post, Dru. Even if it's easier to apologize it's not fair and often it's the worst thing to do because at that point any possible damage has already been done. I know that I might be too cautious, but I've seen many people getting very upset about art theft or republishing of their own material without explict permission.

brantley wrote: AK apparently had a tripod site at one time, and an ubergirls site until 2005, when Ubergirls went down, and he let Lisa Binkley take his site over as a subdomain under Infinity Bridge. But she didn't want to keep that going, so Tarot Barnes took it over, and Tarot wished it off on me a year or two after that, only without Julie. Yet AK still had the Tripod site, and posted a story there a few years ago:

julievelor.tripod.com/GFK/artscent.html

There don't seem to be any other stories there, and there isn't any home page, just an announcement that JulieVelor had moved to Infinity Bridge. That may go back to before 1999, when S.T. Mac was still living, and had a sublink to AK's stories. Not sure just when he went with Ubergirls.

--Brantley


As far as I know the tripod site was just a repository for a number of stories that never got to AK's original site (Ubermadchen and a couple of others) the pages that can be currently track down are ghost of that site since it too went offline a long time ago.
The only thing I can think of is that if those stories were part of the Infinity Bridge library, whoever handled it for a while might know a little more about AK's intentions.


I was kinda joking about the "it's easier to apologise" thing. That's why I was sure to put Jimmy Carr's name there. But like most jokes it DOES have truth behind it. (And all those reasons you state are actually why it's funny ;)

It isn't up to me, and you have been librarian for a very long time and have my utmost respect. But I think you are overthinking this one, mate. And I think you are very wrong about this. If it was a case like when authors here deliberately deleted their stories here then we would not be having this discussion at all. AK never actually posted the stories here, but he had them published and available on his own site then. He HAS got other stories here, which he did NOT ask you to remove. If he was so determined to not have people read these stories, then surely he would have been in touch about this.

This is not about make money. This is not about SWM being the best most complete site for this material (SWM is already there on that score, and by a comfortable margin IMO. Deviantart host plenty of stuff...but they remove any material in this genre the SECOND someone complains and Diana's site is all over the place genre-wise where SWM is focused) This is about great stories that deserve to be read, and re-read. It's about the distant future when none of us are here. We CAN'T ask permission. We would very much like to, but nobody...even a man who knew him as an actual man with a face and a meal in front him...knows how.

There's no financial gain. There is total respect for the material. Honestly Woodclaw...what is the worst that could happen? You or Fats might MIGHT get an angry email? C'mon man...this is all gonna be public domain stuff in a hundred years and your library is already missing chunks. Let's take a chance on this. If there was snowflakes chance in hell of getting a hold of AK I would say you're right. But there's none and Buckley's mate. Hell...worst case scenario is we find out AK is still alive.
Last edit: 16 Jan 2017 16:29 by Dru1076.
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16 Jan 2017 17:53 #52112 by Woodclaw
Replied by Woodclaw on topic Conversation on adding stories from AK archive

brantley wrote: I know he'd approved Lisa taking it over in 2005. I heard from him in 2010, when Tarot was rescuing Infinity Bridge, and referred him to Tarot. I'm not sure what came of that; I don't think there was any further communication pro or con.

--Brantley


At this point I have to ask if either you or Shadar still keep in touch with Tarot, he might be able to shed some light on the subject.
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16 Jan 2017 17:57 #52113 by Woodclaw
Replied by Woodclaw on topic Conversation on adding stories from AK archive

Dru1076 wrote: I was kinda joking about the "it's easier to apologise" thing. That's why I was sure to put Jimmy Carr's name there. But like most jokes it DOES have truth behind it. (And all those reasons you state are actually why it's funny ;)


The easier to apologize thing is a trigger of mine because I had to deal with some people that lived by that, which almost caused me to be subject to massive fine because of it.

Dru1076 wrote: It isn't up to me, and you have been librarian for a very long time and have my utmost respect. But I think you are overthinking this one, mate. And I think you are very wrong about this. If it was a case like when authors here deliberately deleted their stories here then we would not be having this discussion at all. AK never actually posted the stories here, but he had them published and available on his own site then. He HAS got other stories here, which he did NOT ask you to remove. If he was so determined to not have people read these stories, then surely he would have been in touch about this.

This is not about make money. This is not about SWM being the best most complete site for this material (SWM is already there on that score, and by a comfortable margin IMO. Deviantart host plenty of stuff...but they remove any material in this genre the SECOND someone complains and Diana's site is all over the place genre-wise where SWM is focused) This is about great stories that deserve to be read, and re-read. It's about the distant future when none of us are here. We CAN'T ask permission. We would very much like to, but nobody...even a man who knew him as an actual man with a face and a meal in front him...knows how.

There's no financial gain. There is total respect for the material. Honestly Woodclaw...what is the worst that could happen? You or Fats might MIGHT get an angry email? C'mon man...this is all gonna be public domain stuff in a hundred years and your library is already missing chunks. Let's take a chance on this. If there was snowflakes chance in hell of getting a hold of AK I would say you're right. But there's none and Buckley's mate. Hell...worst case scenario is we find out AK is still alive.


The fact that AK never explicitly asked to remove his stories from here is actually a pretty good point in favor of the repost. I'll what can be done in that regard.
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16 Jan 2017 18:46 #52115 by njae

Dru1076 wrote: It isn't up to me, and you have been librarian for a very long time and have my utmost respect. But I think you are overthinking this one, mate. And I think you are very wrong about this. If it was a case like when authors here deliberately deleted their stories here then we would not be having this discussion at all. AK never actually posted the stories here, but he had them published and available on his own site then. He HAS got other stories here, which he did NOT ask you to remove. If he was so determined to not have people read these stories, then surely he would have been in touch about this.

This is not about make money. This is not about SWM being the best most complete site for this material (SWM is already there on that score, and by a comfortable margin IMO. Deviantart host plenty of stuff...but they remove any material in this genre the SECOND someone complains and Diana's site is all over the place genre-wise where SWM is focused) This is about great stories that deserve to be read, and re-read. It's about the distant future when none of us are here. We CAN'T ask permission. We would very much like to, but nobody...even a man who knew him as an actual man with a face and a meal in front him...knows how.

There's no financial gain. There is total respect for the material. Honestly Woodclaw...what is the worst that could happen? You or Fats might MIGHT get an angry email? C'mon man...this is all gonna be public domain stuff in a hundred years and your library is already missing chunks. Let's take a chance on this. If there was snowflakes chance in hell of getting a hold of AK I would say you're right. But there's none and Buckley's mate. Hell...worst case scenario is we find out AK is still alive.


Is AK even aware of the stories he has there? Did he put them there himself or were these a reseed of some sorts?

Anyway I find this "If you can't ask permission then just do it anyway" way of thinking a bit disturbing. By that definition ignorance would be bliss. You excluded the idea of simply reposting stuff that was removed from SWM, but this doesn't fit with your argument about the distant future. Who's to say that in ten years another story gets reseeded because the people running SWM didn't know the author didn't want it gone? When in doubt, I'd asume the worst there.

In my time as a librarian (or rather before that, actually) I was part of the reseeding myself. This included the very story that got me writing, similar to how you said AK's stories did for you. Without the authors permission I wouldn't have done so. I even ran any change I made by him to really make sure he aggreed, which fortunately for us, he did.
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16 Jan 2017 20:48 - 16 Jan 2017 21:27 #52119 by Dru1076

njae wrote:

Dru1076 wrote: It isn't up to me, and you have been librarian for a very long time and have my utmost respect. But I think you are overthinking this one, mate. And I think you are very wrong about this. If it was a case like when authors here deliberately deleted their stories here then we would not be having this discussion at all. AK never actually posted the stories here, but he had them published and available on his own site then. He HAS got other stories here, which he did NOT ask you to remove. If he was so determined to not have people read these stories, then surely he would have been in touch about this.

This is not about make money. This is not about SWM being the best most complete site for this material (SWM is already there on that score, and by a comfortable margin IMO. Deviantart host plenty of stuff...but they remove any material in this genre the SECOND someone complains and Diana's site is all over the place genre-wise where SWM is focused) This is about great stories that deserve to be read, and re-read. It's about the distant future when none of us are here. We CAN'T ask permission. We would very much like to, but nobody...even a man who knew him as an actual man with a face and a meal in front him...knows how.

There's no financial gain. There is total respect for the material. Honestly Woodclaw...what is the worst that could happen? You or Fats might MIGHT get an angry email? C'mon man...this is all gonna be public domain stuff in a hundred years and your library is already missing chunks. Let's take a chance on this. If there was snowflakes chance in hell of getting a hold of AK I would say you're right. But there's none and Buckley's mate. Hell...worst case scenario is we find out AK is still alive.


Is AK even aware of the stories he has there? Did he put them there himself or were these a reseed of some sorts?

Anyway I find this "If you can't ask permission then just do it anyway" way of thinking a bit disturbing. By that definition ignorance would be bliss. You excluded the idea of simply reposting stuff that was removed from SWM, but this doesn't fit with your argument about the distant future. Who's to say that in ten years another story gets reseeded because the people running SWM didn't know the author didn't want it gone? When in doubt, I'd asume the worst there.

In my time as a librarian (or rather before that, actually) I was part of the reseeding myself. This included the very story that got me writing, similar to how you said AK's stories did for you. Without the authors permission I wouldn't have done so. I even ran any change I made by him to really make sure he aggreed, which fortunately for us, he did.


Mate...I wish I could be entirely sure of your motives. I think I was quite clear on your point about authors who had removed their stuff. We wouldn't be discussing this at all if AK had done that. But he didn't. Who is to say AK, who has stories here in the library, would NOT be absolutely fine with reposting the rest?

This is an extremely rare case. And when it comes to posterity, do you really think one should "assume the worst"? I strongly disagree. I doubt you need worry about authors who have deliberately removed their stuff. This is a very special case, and would most likely never ever happen again. I don't think the chances of what you are describing happening are so great it should derail this idea.
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17 Jan 2017 00:25 #52123 by SCOTT R
Perfect Posts Dru!
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17 Jan 2017 01:26 #52124 by argonaut
Replied by argonaut on topic Conversation on adding stories from AK archive
This is one of those times when I can see merit in both sides of a debate.

One of Dru's comments implied that the stories can still be found via Wayback. If that's the case, perhaps AK's stories could be listed in the Library, alongside a link sending the reader to wherever the story is archived?

AK's were some of the first "ubergirl" stories I discovered on-line, before I knew there were others who shared my odd fascination with super-powerful women. They are classics of the genre, and it would be a shame if newcomers to SWM had no way to read them.
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17 Jan 2017 01:30 #52125 by brantley
Replied by brantley on topic Conversation on adding stories from AK archive
What I have at The Bright Empire is an archive link. But then, I wouldn't know how to recreate the site, as Tarot did with Infinity Bridge.

--Brantley
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17 Jan 2017 07:19 #52129 by njae

Dru1076 wrote: Mate...I wish I could be entirely sure of your motives. I think I was quite clear on your point about authors who had removed their stuff. We wouldn't be discussing this at all if AK had done that. But he didn't. Who is to say AK, who has stories here in the library, would NOT be absolutely fine with reposting the rest?


What part of me trying to be the voice of reason makes you doubt my motives? Its not like I would gain anything here. So you'll have to excuse me if I won't make such a big case as you do right here. I just see this as AKs intellectual property that shouldn't be decided on by anybody other than him. Assuming he'd be ok witj it wouldn't be ok for me. But them I am not aware of the laws applying so I can't say whether this mail you see as a worst case could come from a lawyer rather than AK himself. Then again it would go to neither one of us anyway.
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17 Jan 2017 09:01 #52130 by AuGoose
Seems like we're trying to determine if the text has been neglected or negated.

I'm not a "better to beg forgiveness" sort (because its always easier to *%&#ing RUIN the fool that thought they should try that reasoning than to forgive...) but if the chain of events being described is accurate, it seems like the text was not willfully buried or suppressed, just lost to the vagaries of the internet.

Publishing is a fairly powerful statement. A bell not easily unrung. The text is out there and ultimately its fairly available to anyone who looks for it. So its not like we can help keep some shameful secret. Which it's seemingly not. Its just a question of how few keystrokes are going to be required to access it.

Would be lovely if someone could make contact with the author though.
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17 Jan 2017 09:40 #52131 by Woodclaw
Replied by Woodclaw on topic Conversation on adding stories from AK archive

brantley wrote: What I have at The Bright Empire is an archive link. But then, I wouldn't know how to recreate the site, as Tarot did with Infinity Bridge.

--Brantley


If those versions are the same that were hosted on Infinity Bridge before it sounds to me that you are the actual curator of those stories.
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