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Supervillains versus superheroines

06 Nov 2019 19:16 #65511 by smoki07
Replied by smoki07 on topic Supervillains versus superheroines
I agree with ace191

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07 Nov 2019 00:50 #65514 by Klaus
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I like Velorians because they're bad girls when it comes to having sex and good girls when it comes to almost everything else.
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07 Nov 2019 02:17 #65515 by Mynn
Replied by Mynn on topic Supervillains versus superheroines
Having been a Supervillain-- correction, an "evil goddess" character before, I can say from experience that's it's far more liberating to not have to play by the moral rules to get what I want. I imagine that it's for writers, it's easier to write about characters who aren't as inhibited as someone who is more "pure." Though "good" characters who are just flat our "pure" I'm not so sure they're interesting... 

That said, have any of you ever thought of seeking externally for female superhero stories that dive deeper on both sides? There are quite a few novels out there featuring more good, evil and neutral superwomen in novel length among other things and explore those moral dilemmas. 

Some examples I can think of with female superhero / supervillain leads: 

Wearing the Cape Series
Just Cause Series
So Not A Hero 
Forging Hephaestus
EVO Universe Novels, (The MC gets becomes very, very OP by ways of Saiyan-like Zenkai boosts but way more potent)
Super World (another woman who gets very OP via a virus that makes everyone on the entire planet gain powers.)
Villains don't date Heroes. 
Worm (this is actually a web serial -  parahumans.wordpress.com/ )

I try to keep tabs on the powerfully empowered women out there. Part of my political interests. Let me know if you seek something in particular, my darlings. 

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07 Nov 2019 16:39 #65518 by Ta
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Personally, I prefer reading about a good girl that is however confident and is willing to use her powers for her own benefit as long as it doesn't involve doing something very amoral. So basically I'd prefer a chaotic good ubergirl.

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10 Nov 2019 20:13 #65551 by The Highlander
Replied by The Highlander on topic Supervillains versus superheroines
I'm afraid I'm one of those people responsible for someof these problems. I'm definitely more of a good girl fan but while I read a
lot of stories I rarely ever get round to adding them as favourites or  leaving a comment (mostly due to inertia)which helps to contribute to the impression that no-one likes them. I also have
to confess that I often forget or don't notice who the author is while I'm
reading the story, and sometimes I only find out when someone removes all their
stories and I suddenly discover I can't read one of my favourites any more. With regard to the main discussion I'd perhaps like toadd another small distinction between 'bad' girls (those who enjoy using their
powers to steal and break things for fun) and 'evil' (who kill and torture just
because they can). While I can sometimes enjoy bad girl stories (especially for
displays of power) I am generally revolted by evil girls, which is why I have
ignored the most recent workshop. To me 'Blind Date' was an excellent example of the difference.While Becky caused a lot of death and destruction none of it was motivated by any
great malice. She'd had a bad start to her life and never had anyone to guide
her, but when the opportunity presented herself she showed how good she could
be.
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10 Nov 2019 21:36 #65553 by njae
Replied by njae on topic Supervillains versus superheroines

The Highlander wrote: I'm afraid I'm one of those people responsible for someof these problems. I'm definitely more of a good girl fan but while I read a
lot of stories I rarely ever get round to adding them as favourites or  leaving a comment (mostly due to inertia)which helps to contribute to the impression that no-one likes them. I also have
to confess that I often forget or don't notice who the author is while I'm
reading the story, and sometimes I only find out when someone removes all their
stories and I suddenly discover I can't read one of my favourites any more. With regard to the main discussion I'd perhaps like toadd another small distinction between 'bad' girls (those who enjoy using their
powers to steal and break things for fun) and 'evil' (who kill and torture just
because they can). While I can sometimes enjoy bad girl stories (especially for
displays of power) I am generally revolted by evil girls, which is why I have
ignored the most recent workshop. To me 'Blind Date' was an excellent example of the difference.While Becky caused a lot of death and destruction none of it was motivated by any
great malice. She'd had a bad start to her life and never had anyone to guide
her, but when the opportunity presented herself she showed how good she could
be.


I actually didn't want to post here again as I feel like my presence drove the topic into a wrong direction, but Blind Date is a perfect example for Bad Girls being preferred. None of my one-shots featured a character as evil as Becky but it's by far the most popular of those stories.
Another interesting bit: It was written in the "Recycle an old workshop theme"-Workshop and I used the theme "A ubergirl changes sides". The topic allowed for either: good to bad or bad to good changes. None of the original stories had a bad to good change. It says something about the popularity of bad ubergirls if all the stories have a good girl go bad.

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11 Nov 2019 00:28 #65561 by Idylls
Replied by Idylls on topic Supervillains versus superheroines
I liked Blind Date because it touches upon the themes of redemption. I also love the reformed villain trope since I was 13 and would play it whenever I can. 

Back then I read her actions as something the author did just to contrast the change she'll go through. Something drastic to emphasize a point. It never occurred to me someone liked Bad Becky just because she was bad. If someone did shouldn't he be angry the author ruined a perfectly evil character. 

What really defines a good or evil character? For me it is the underlying motivation one does one's actions, each could encompass a very wide spectrum. And I want to see that. When someone doesn't make that effort it shows and it leads to a direction less story that leads to nowhere.

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11 Nov 2019 00:42 #65562 by Idylls
Replied by Idylls on topic Supervillains versus superheroines

njae wrote:
I actually didn't want to post here again as I feel like my presence drove the topic into a wrong direction


Why? Isn't it fun to rile up some feathers, rock the boat or shake up that pedestal. 

Seriously though, what wrong direction? Shadar made a valid query. There is nothing wrong in finding the pulse of the audience (or if you do belong with the particular community). To find out if you wish to cater to that audience or walk away. 

So I say post away. 

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11 Nov 2019 07:08 #65570 by ChaozCloud
Replied by ChaozCloud on topic Supervillains versus superheroines
I feel there is more good to bad than bad to good, because there are IMO less reasons for an evil character to turn good. There are hundreds of things that can happen in a persons life that can take them into dark places. But what is going to make an unstoppable machine of destruction see the light?

Don't get me wrong, I love a good Heel to Face turn, like for example most characters from the original Thunderbolts team (hopefully Moonstone gets a proper turn someday too).

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11 Nov 2019 07:56 #65571 by njae
Replied by njae on topic Supervillains versus superheroines

Idylls wrote: I liked Blind Date because it touches upon the themes of redemption. I also love the reformed villain trope since I was 13 and would play it whenever I can. 

Back then I read her actions as something the author did just to contrast the change she'll go through. Something drastic to emphasize a point. It never occurred to me someone liked Bad Becky just because she was bad. If someone did shouldn't he be angry the author ruined a perfectly evil character. 

What really defines a good or evil character? For me it is the underlying motivation one does one's actions, each could encompass a very wide spectrum. And I want to see that. When someone doesn't make that effort it shows and it leads to a direction less story that leads to nowhere.


Becky is only the most evil of my one-shot-characters which doesn't mean she can compare to other characters of the bad girl genre. She's essentially what happens when one of these characters have been around for several years. Everybody is scared of her and hates her while she's lonely at the top. She doesn't actively cause destruction but if you attack her, she will retaliate. By the end of the story she did one small heroic thing - but that doesn't clear her reputation. And a love interest only leaves her vulnerable. Now imagine something happening to him...

I think most "bad girl" fans got hooked by the initial confrontation with the police which was up their alley. "Come for the bloodbath, stay for the story".

Idylls wrote: Seriously though, what wrong direction? Shadar made a valid query. There is nothing wrong in finding the pulse of the audience (or if you do
belong with the particular community). To find out if you wish to cater
to that audience or walk away. 


I was mostly referring to the focus on my stories in a few posts as it gets close to being off-topic.

But I just remembered yet another hint of the site being skewed towards the bad ubergirl genre: Legends of SWM. That was a title that was given to a select few people several years ago that as far as I remember never saw any addition beyond that. But lets look at the members, shall we?
  • Conceptfan
  • Marknew742
  • Shadar
  • Dru1076
  • GeekSeven
  • Julievelor aka AK
Ignoring the fact that some of them have been inactive for a while, those authors are mostly known for their "bad girl" stories. Looking back at the old thread the first person that was suggested to be added was d_k_c - who tends to win pretty much every workshop with a selfish/evil ubergirl story.
Shadar really seems to be the odd man out in that list...

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11 Nov 2019 10:38 #65572 by Idylls
Replied by Idylls on topic Supervillains versus superheroines

ChaozCloud wrote: I feel there is more good to bad than bad to good, because there are IMO less reasons for an evil character to turn good. There are hundreds of things that can happen in a persons life that can take them into dark places. But what is going to make an unstoppable machine of destruction see the light?


This is something to think about. I don't really agree with the general assessment then again I could see arguments for both sides. People in general aren't and can't be pegged in absolutes. 

And while you are hard pressed to find heel faced turns in comics, I suggest you look to anime and manga. 

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11 Nov 2019 10:59 #65574 by Idylls
Replied by Idylls on topic Supervillains versus superheroines

njae wrote:
But I just remembered yet another hint of the site being skewed towards the bad ubergirl genre: Legends of SWM. That was a title that was given to a select few people several years ago that as far as I remember never saw any addition beyond that. But lets look at the members, shall we?

  • Conceptfan
  • Marknew742
  • Shadar
  • Dru1076
  • GeekSeven
  • Julievelor aka AK
Ignoring the fact that some of them have been inactive for a while, those authors are mostly known for their "bad girl" stories. Looking back at the old thread the first person that was suggested to be added was d_k_c - who tends to win pretty much every workshop with a selfish/evil ubergirl story.
Shadar really seems to be the odd man out in that list...


There is a thread like that? I can't even ... Wow! I wish I can use emojis to reply to this. And I don't even like using emojis.

I would like to hear the reason.for the appeal of their stories especially from those who put them in this high stature. Honestly, seriously, with no judgement or sarcasm.

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11 Nov 2019 11:05 #65575 by ChaozCloud
Replied by ChaozCloud on topic Supervillains versus superheroines
There are indeed plenty of heel to face turns in manga and anime. However, the majority of them is an earlier villain teaming up with the hero to defeat a bigger threat and then mellowing out.
Don't think I've ever seen an anime where you follow a villainous character that then turns good.

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11 Nov 2019 12:13 #65576 by Woodclaw
Replied by Woodclaw on topic Supervillains versus superheroines

Idylls wrote:

njae wrote:
But I just remembered yet another hint of the site being skewed towards the bad ubergirl genre: Legends of SWM. That was a title that was given to a select few people several years ago that as far as I remember never saw any addition beyond that. But lets look at the members, shall we?

  • Conceptfan
  • Marknew742
  • Shadar
  • Dru1076
  • GeekSeven
  • Julievelor aka AK
Ignoring the fact that some of them have been inactive for a while, those authors are mostly known for their "bad girl" stories. Looking back at the old thread the first person that was suggested to be added was d_k_c - who tends to win pretty much every workshop with a selfish/evil ubergirl story.
Shadar really seems to be the odd man out in that list...


There is a thread like that? I can't even ... Wow! I wish I can use emojis to reply to this. And I don't even like using emojis.

I would like to hear the reason.for the appeal of their stories especially from those who put them in this high stature. Honestly, seriously, with no judgement or sarcasm.


The Legend status (which is no longer active) was awarded to people who either provided large amounts of content in the early days of SWM or were considered skilled enough to self-edit their own stories without any intervention from the moderators. Aside from that I would like to point out that only half of these writers are primarily "bad girls writers" (Conceptfasn, Dru and GeekSeven). Shadar's work span the entirety of the genre but has a prevalence of good girls, AK has stuff from both but had more good girl series as far as I can remember, Marknew tend to go for a very neutral ground with characters that can swing both ways easily.

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11 Nov 2019 12:51 - 11 Nov 2019 16:31 #65577 by njae
Replied by njae on topic Supervillains versus superheroines

Idylls wrote: There is a thread like that? I can't even ... Wow! I wish I can use emojis to reply to this. And I don't even like using emojis.

I would like to hear the reason.for the appeal of their stories especially from those who put them in this high stature. Honestly, seriously, with no judgement or sarcasm.


Well I linked it in my post, there's an explanation and a discussion even.

ChaozCloud wrote: There are indeed plenty of heel to face turns in manga and anime. However, the majority of them is an earlier villain teaming up with the
hero to defeat a bigger threat and then mellowing out.
Don't think I've ever seen an anime where you follow a villainous character that then turns good.


That's less heel-face-turn and more "Defeat means Friendship", a trope that's very frequent in Anime and Manga, not so much in western comics. One of the reasons for that would be that western comics run for a much longer time and go through reboots and retcons so that reusing the same villains is even possible and the idea of the villain coming back from prison for another round is still possible since killing them is a moral event horizon aren't supposed to cross. Anime heroes don't have that problem so a villain may actually get killed off. Even more likely if it's not the main character doing the fighting,

woodclaw wrote: Marknew tend to go for a very neutral ground with characters that can swing both ways easily.


It's been a while since I read his stories, but most of the ones I have in mind is about women stealing the powers from guys and flaunting their new status. While it can be discussed how evil those are I can't remember a single instance where the girl could be considered good in the end. Would like to see an example for that one.

Also: The status still exists. The people still have this special title, so it's a bit weird to call the status "no longer active".
Last edit: 11 Nov 2019 16:31 by njae. Reason: Reacting to Woodclaws post

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11 Nov 2019 16:43 #65579 by d_k_c
Replied by d_k_c on topic Supervillains versus superheroines
Njae, good girl, vs bad girl bad girl doesn’t matter as much as good story vs bad story. 

There’s a lot of work that goes into a story - and writing a coherent story takes some time, and most importantly practice. For me personally, because I like writing other non superheroine fiction, writing a story from beginning to end is good practice. Everytime I post a story, I read it while it’s in the que - and I’m like that’s, misspelled ,I need to elaborate on that or would this character really say this?  Even after all that, I roll my eyes at my own finished product.

My point is, while people might tend to vote for bad girls -  it might be because the best authors write about bad girls. Not being able realize that, might be one of your biggest hurdles.

If a story doesn’t gain traction you have a choice, you can blame the universe, or you can blame yourself.

My next story should be an 8 part story - I’ll post it sometime in the new year, it’s going to be about a good girl. If it’s not well received, I’m not going to blame preferences, or other people......it’ll be on me.
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11 Nov 2019 17:44 #65581 by shadar
Replied by shadar on topic Supervillains versus superheroines

d_k_c wrote:
There’s a lot of work that goes into a story - and writing a coherent story takes some time, and most importantly practice. For me personally, because I like writing other non superheroine fiction, writing a story from beginning to end is good practice. Everytime I post a story, I read it while it’s in the que - and I’m like that’s, misspelled ,I need to elaborate on that or would this character really say this?  Even after all that, I roll my eyes at my own finished product.

.


Oh, OH... that sounds just like me. No matter how much I proofread a story, when I've submitted it to SWM and before it's published, I find all kinds of things that drive me crazy, but it's too late to fix without creating more work for Woodclaw. 

I have reduced this a lot by exporting to a different file format and then reading it on a different device than I wrote it on, and with much larger fonts. For instance, I write on a Mac but I do a final proofread on my iPad. That helps a lot, but it still isn't a 100%. 

Amazing how blind we become to our own prose by the time we've wrestled a story into shape. In the ideal world, I should get it as done as its going to be, and then let it sit for a month or two before going back to read it anew. That would work, probably, but who has extra months to let finished stories sit around?

Which is why traditional publishing as Editors, who take control of the final text. They are a special breed who can massage a thousand details in a manuscript while not pissing the author off too much or changing his or her voice. There is a world of difference between a proofreader and an Editor. 

Shadar

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11 Nov 2019 18:13 #65582 by Woodclaw
Replied by Woodclaw on topic Supervillains versus superheroines

shadar wrote:

d_k_c wrote:
There’s a lot of work that goes into a story - and writing a coherent story takes some time, and most importantly practice. For me personally, because I like writing other non superheroine fiction, writing a story from beginning to end is good practice. Everytime I post a story, I read it while it’s in the que - and I’m like that’s, misspelled ,I need to elaborate on that or would this character really say this?  Even after all that, I roll my eyes at my own finished product.

.


Oh, OH... that sounds just like me. No matter how much I proofread a story, when I've submitted it to SWM and before it's published, I find all kinds of things that drive me crazy, but it's too late to fix without creating more work for Woodclaw. 

I have reduced this a lot by exporting to a different file format and then reading it on a different device than I wrote it on, and with much larger fonts. For instance, I write on a Mac but I do a final proofread on my iPad. That helps a lot, but it still isn't a 100%. 

Amazing how blind we become to our own prose by the time we've wrestled a story into shape. In the ideal world, I should get it as done as its going to be, and then let it sit for a month or two before going back to read it anew. That would work, probably, but who has extra months to let finished stories sit around?

Which is why traditional publishing as Editors, who take control of the final text. They are a special breed who can massage a thousand details in a manuscript while not pissing the author off too much or changing his or her voice. There is a world of difference between a proofreader and an Editor. 

Shadar


In my day job I often try to catch as many spelling errors as possible before handling the text over to an editor... and I'm astonished by how often publishers seem to think that editing is an optional step!

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11 Nov 2019 19:57 #65585 by njae
Replied by njae on topic Supervillains versus superheroines

d_k_c wrote: Njae, good girl, vs bad girl bad girl doesn’t matter as much as good story vs bad story. 


Where did I make the impression I thought otherwise?

d_k_c wrote: There’s a lot of work that goes into a story - and writing a coherent story takes some time, and most importantly practice. For me personally, because I like writing other non superheroine fiction, writing a story from beginning to end is good practice. Everytime I post a story, I read it while it’s in the que - and I’m like that’s, misspelled ,I need to elaborate on that or would this character really say this?  Even after all that, I roll my eyes at my own finished product.


Yeah, been there. I know how much time and effort went into my own writing. No matter how good the word processor was, the proofreaders still found stuff to change, I mean English is still a foreign language to me, so I needed all the help I could get to try and cover the gap to native speakers. And in the end I am still my own worst critic.

d_k_c wrote: My point is, while people might tend to vote for bad girls -  it might be because the best authors write about bad girls. Not being able realize that, might be one of your biggest hurdles.


Sure, that's a possible explanation, and when it comes to the Legends it's the most obvious explanation. But the way you put it, with your own track record of winning workshops with these types of stories, it comes off as arrogant.

One other thing, though: When I first look at a new story here, I quickly look at the bottom to see the tags for that story. Certain tags like "Origin: Alien" or anything hinting at fanfiction have a very high chance of making me skip the story entirely. It's a dick move because I am not giving the author a chance. On the other hand I know what I like and what I don't so even the best-written story will not be my favorite when I already hate the premise. An author whose style I know and like from other stories may get that chance, however. What I want to say is other people may have a similar system in place when deciding whether or not to read a story.

d_k_c wrote: If a story doesn’t gain traction you have a choice, you can blame the universe, or you can blame yourself.


You seem to be under the impression that I'd blame the community for not liking my stories. Trust me when I say that this is not the case. Sure I am not happy about it since I did invest a lot of time writing them, but some of my stories were out of my own comfort zone due to the workshop themes in place. So I am not kidding when I say I don't like them. How could I blame others for not liking them? And just to be perfectly clear about it: Lack of recognition (for my stories) is not why I removed my stories here. I removed them because shit happened. I removed them from other places because they just didn't belong there.
Nowadays I don't have the time to actually write the way I did years ago, Back then I had so much spare time at work to write on the side, but that's over. When I actually do dibble into genre writing, I may produce an outline to make sure I don't write myself into a corner and then lose steam a few thousand words in the real thing. I have accepted that I probably never finish one of these half-projects.

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12 Nov 2019 00:12 #65594 by Idylls
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Maybe the story doesn't get traction because you are with the wrong audience. If you're looking for pizza you don't go to a Chinese restaurant. This is what this thread about. Do writers like Shadar and Njae even belong here. 

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12 Nov 2019 00:52 #65595 by d_k_c
Replied by d_k_c on topic Supervillains versus superheroines
Njae – you made the impression when you suggested that SWM has a preference toward bad girls and that your stories weren’t not as well received because they primarily dealt with good girls. While I don’t think that’s the case…At all. I would say maybe, Slut vs Non-slut…..but who are we kidding, does any one really want to read a story about a super empowered prude? =)

As far as my record Is concerned, perhaps you’ve forgotten the times where I routinely came in last place. When I went up against the Titans and I routinely lost – So I tried harder. Eventually forced me to write Milani in DC and then Supanji. Which were meant to take on the Titans – and Supanji is one of the few stories I’ve written that I’m happy with.  

I will say though on a side note – even when I came in last, I found that voting back then was so much more rewarding. One vote per person,and you needed to log in to vote,. I sometimes wonder if that was removed due to ….”Feelings” And feelings might be responsible for a lot of
things….but they don’t make you a better writer, or a better person.

Njae – out of curiosity what’s your measure for your story not being well received? If we were to compare comments – your stories had far more comments than mine
did. Yes I did win some workshops, but I recall you did as well. Other than
that, I have no idea how say, a story like Involuntarily Djinn was received.
The primary reason why I only write complete stories now, is that I know I’ll be
more discouraged than encouraged if I write individual parts.

Bottom line is – The story has to have a good set up, pacing and characters. Dialogue could end your story before it begins, ask yourself would this character really say this?

And, uh, a Nice pair of tits never killed anyone….Well except in the SWM universe……But what good girl would ever do that???

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12 Nov 2019 11:48 #65597 by Woodclaw
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Idylls wrote: Maybe the story doesn't get traction because you are with the wrong audience. If you're looking for pizza you don't go to a Chinese restaurant. This is what this thread about. Do writers like Shadar and Njae even belong here. 


Yes, they do. SWM isn't meant to tackle one specific aspect of the superheroine genre, but to act as a repository for anyone who wants to contribute to this form of fiction. By looking at the numbers in the back end I can tell you that there's not a massive difference between good girls and bad girls stories overall, but there's a difference in terms of time: bad girl stories tend to get more views in the short run, but die down very quickly (with a few exceptions), whereas good girl stories tend to get traction in the mid to long run (again with some exceptions).
There's also the issue of diminishing returns over time. Just like comic books or any other kind of serial narrative, multi-chapter stories tend to follow a rather predictable pattern: the first chapter (of chapters in some cases) is usually the one that gets more interests because of the novelty, the second one is often the weakest -- because lots of readers have dropped the story -- from three onward the interest starts to rise again, but it's an uphill battle to keep it at a steady level.

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12 Nov 2019 16:46 #65599 by lfan
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12 Nov 2019 19:11 #65603 by Gincognifo
Replied by Gincognifo on topic Supervillains versus superheroines
The only way to settle this is to put all of our resources into developing two doses of a super-soldier serum.  We give one dose to a beautiful psychopath and the other to a beautiful humanitarian.  Then, we set up fan pages for them on social media and tally how many likes each of them gets.

The losing side is banished to an isolated island without internet so they can never be fans of their preferred flavor of superwomen ever again.

The winning side gets... I don't know... T-shirts or something.
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12 Nov 2019 21:51 #65605 by Gincognifo
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The following user(s) said Thank You: lfan, lojack, rivet, Sarge395, freeLancer, Woodclaw, Random321, ChaozCloud, Markiehoe, Klaus, TwiceOnThursdays, TheOne25, guimachajo1

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