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Pandemic = Kryptonite for comics?

13 Apr 2020 00:42 #67648 by TwiceOnThursdays
Replied by TwiceOnThursdays on topic Pandemic = Kryptonite for comics?

cbaby wrote: Isn't part of the problem that there are just so many different comics published every month?  Surely something more like the japanese manga magazines with several different comics in one volume per month be a better way to go?  I suspect the sheer volume puts off many people trying to get into it in the first place.


yes, this is part of the problem.   It’s great for fans ... lots of choices.  But it’s hard on new fans and store owners.

like I didn’t know I liked some crime comics — but Brubaker and Philips changed my mind.  And Fatale was a favorite of mine.  (And the old broadway one two lfan.  :-)). It’s a mix of crime comic and hp lovecraft.   I love all the modern variety.  It’s awesome to be a comic reader today.   But it does come with a price.

anthology books used to be more common.   Dc just experimented with giant size books thru Walmart.  Each book had several stories on the core character and some stories of other related characters.

I think in general these don’t sell well in the US — but that’s my impression and not backed by fact.

there has been a return to Holiday issues which are this exact format though, so maybe it’s making a comeback.   I do hope the industry innovates a bit.  And this is the kind of thinking the industry needs.

also I notice some people conflate a collector with a general comics reader and a.    fan.  Some are all there ... some are only one.

the old time comic market had zero collectors and only readers and fans (I’m using fan to denote someone focused on one particular subset as opposed to all comics in general).

I think the industry currently caters to collectors first ... and that’s part of the problem.

a reader and fan might not care at all about a physical copy and love digital. A collector wants a physical object. I’m all three — so I get it.  I think a strong industry needs all of these.

it doesn’t matter how shitty a supergirl comic is ... I have every comic w supergirl in the title and I’m not I am going to stop. I will eventually have every comic She-Hulk is in. She's in the comic? I buy it. So I willingly buy shit because I’m a collector ... and I’m part of the problem.  (I'm not unique in this regard)

but I never buy for investment (I’m weird). I do buy for my collection.   Most comics I buy because I want to read and enjoy them.

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13 Apr 2020 01:30 #67649 by TwiceOnThursdays
Replied by TwiceOnThursdays on topic Pandemic = Kryptonite for comics?
I'm going to make some quick comments on comic sales. 

www.comichron.com/yearlycomicssales.html

We can gleem some interesting facts from this:

Comics Market: $1B (total market)
Digital Market (seems to be an estimate, I can't find the methodology): $100M

So Digital is about 10%.  BUT, here's an interesting take.

Diamond sales, I have to use 2018 as the 2019 #'s are not in.

Total Market: $995M
Diamond sales (comic book stores): $516M
Digital: $100M

So Digital Sales are actually 20% of the comic book store market ($100M/$500M) and 10% of the overall market.  And the non-comic market (bookstores, schools, digital) was $479M.  $100M of that is digital.  So the non-comic book store physical market is $379M in 2018.  That's trades sold in bookstores and schools.  You can use those #'s and try to make some guesses at Ms. Marvel sales through other venues, if you want to use a number closer to her actual annual $$.

(Though I suspect from demographic reasons, MS. Marvel sells better through those outlets than comic book stores.)

I also wonder if Digital sales are a higher % compared to stores in 2019.  I would think they would be growing faster than sales to stores.

If comic book stores die, the industry loses almost points to sell monthly physical titles AND over half of their sales.  That's brutal.  Also I'm pretty sure TPB sales are partially due to the trendsetters buying the monthly titles telling people "oh man this Black Widow run is great!". So the residual effects are catastrophic.

I'm sure Marvel and DC could survive that way, but they'd cut waaaay back on titles and really focus on getting their back stock into TPB and sold through bookstores.  A bunch of the independents would just fold.  If fans accepted the move to TPB, they could just buy them at bookstores. But.. collectors won't like this at all.  I personally do not care what version a TPB is, but curiously, I want first edition comic books, not 2nd edition or reprints.  (Unless *sigh* a reprint is a differnt title and it's on my "appearences" list then I tell myself "It's just a reprint you don't... AND he's buying it again.." )

Its possible they could set up a subscription service for limited run physical copies.  Collectors would probably eat that shit up. Just like people still buy vinyl records.  Then ALL comics are LIMITED EDITION!!  (though to me if it's all special, nothing is special.)  You might be able to convert a good % of comic book store pull customers, esp if you used some good tech. I'd really miss my comic book store though.  And browsing.  It would probably make me switch to almost all digital.  It's great to read comics on a 27" monitor or a 12.9" iPad pro -- but I still love actual comic books. I've given up on normal books, I'm 100% kindle.

I just found the stats on the non-comic book market very interesting, as was the comparison of the digital estimate to the comic book store sales.

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13 Apr 2020 01:45 #67650 by shadar
Replied by shadar on topic Pandemic = Kryptonite for comics?

TwiceOnThursdays wrote:

cbaby wrote: Isn't part of the problem that there are just so many different comics published every month?  Surely something more like the japanese manga magazines with several different comics in one volume per month be a better way to go?  I suspect the sheer volume puts off many people trying to get into it in the first place.




it doesn’t matter how shitty a supergirl comic is ... I have every comic w supergirl in the title and I’m not I am going to stop. I will eventually have every comic She-Hulk is in. She's in the comic? I buy it. So I willingly buy shit because I’m a collector ... and I’m part of the problem.  (I'm not unique in this regard)

but I never buy for investment (I’m weird). I do buy for my collection.   Most comics I buy because I want to read and enjoy them.


Same here. Up until New 52 or whatever, at which point I went all digital. I still try to buy anything and everything with SG or PG. I used to love to browse at Mile High Comics main store in Denver. when I lived in Boulder, CO. I liked the bargain oldies rack (which had many thousands of issues) that had well-worn issues that weren't even bagged. That way I could scan the issue to check out the artwork before buying. Cheap too. 

Given I'm a reader and not a collector, that worked for me. I still get a great deal of enjoyment by picking up an old 60's or 70's SG or Adventure book from my cabinet, choosing one more or less at random, and then reading it slowly and getting into it the way I used to. I've never gotten tired of that. Doubt I ever will. 

Shadar
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13 Apr 2020 02:33 #67652 by Idylls
Replied by Idylls on topic Pandemic = Kryptonite for comics?
As much as I want to answer every post, every bullet point, to give hope or herald doomsday. Well I know I'm not convincing anybody. As much as I know those Comichron numbers are true, I also know about reboots and relaunches, variant covers and order tie-ins. And ships are not sales. So nope you are not convincing me either that the industry is healthy. 

Both "sides" know there is a problem. We're all still in dark for an answer. I could say "returnability", more reboots and #1's or less, more variant covers or less, more SJW or not, more events and tie-ins that milk the customers or not. More sexier art or not. Lower price point? 

I don't know. All I'm certain is something needs to change. Maybe this pandemic force their hand.

I liked that DC has tried though I don't know how successful they were. I was never a collector (my rpg friends are and I was so at awe at their collections) so I don't keep up with everything. I mostly go to shops for Magic and RPG. 

ps Twice, stop flip-flopping. 

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13 Apr 2020 04:20 #67654 by TwiceOnThursdays
Replied by TwiceOnThursdays on topic Pandemic = Kryptonite for comics?

Idylls wrote: ps Twice, stop flip-flopping. 


I would love to know what you mean by this.   I’m always open to critique on any part of what I say.

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13 Apr 2020 05:48 #67655 by Idylls
Replied by Idylls on topic Pandemic = Kryptonite for comics?

TwiceOnThursdays wrote:

Idylls wrote: ps Twice, stop flip-flopping. 


I would love to know what you mean by this.   I’m always open to critique on any part of what I say.


You admit that there is a problem then site numbers and therefore conclude everything is gonna be fine. You even site Marvel's rise from bankruptcy therefore conclude it'll be fine. I like the optimism.

Yet you know there is a problem. You know about the lack of new readers, of shrinking orders, of dollar bins and unsold books, flooding shelves, of bad business practices. You understand it's unsustainable. I could list more but doing so is exasperating. I left Twitter years ago because reading all about them was depressing. 

Shouldn't we have learned the lesson.

I'll just say this indifference is what lead to where we are. Acknowledging there is a problem is only the start.

Granted just talking about the problem isn't going to do anything either. But I don't even think whatever solution is found that there is anyone that cares to listen. Even until now. 

#pencils down

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13 Apr 2020 07:38 - 13 Apr 2020 07:40 #67657 by shevek
Replied by shevek on topic Pandemic = Kryptonite for comics?
Hey folks! Glad to see a sizeable number of people talking about the downfall of comics, as well as being hip to the crowdfunding
scene, which is happening both on Indiegogo and Kickstarter (just for clarification).

We have personally supported many crowdfunded books in the past three years. In order to limit the amount of projects we back, all of them have prominent superheroines in them who look like women. Some of these books are CG-related, and some are not. It doesn't matter, as long as the comic is entertaining and well-drawn, and the ladies are beautiful.

Here are some of the ones we've backed and received:
- Patriotika 1, 2 and 3
- Deborah Darling (tpb)
- Flying Sparks 
- Jawbreakers 1 and 2
- Blue Mamba  (tpbs)
- Battle Maiden Knuckle Bomb
- Like Father Like Daughter (tpb)

Here are the ones we have backed which we are still waiting for:
- Lady Alchemy
- Little Girl Lethal
- Brand
- Tarot Witch of the Black Rose (tpb)
- Firebitch (by the lovely Cara Nicole Trujillo and husband Alfred)

Now, back to the industry. As mentioned by many of the above posters - yes, the ultra-progressive takeover of the mainstream comic industry has turned off a bunch of longtime fans starting around 2014. That was part of the downturn. But only a little bit - 2015 was still a huge up year. So there's much more to it than that.

The comic industry isn't attracting any new fans. Nobody. Even the handful of newer young people who supposedly tweet about new comics?
They aren't buying any. I've seen a few kids picking up on DC Superhero Girls, for example, but most of them are just watching it online.
And this is despite the fact that there have been innumerable huge superhero movies. Millennials never picked up the habit of buying comics - they are now playing video games, watching Netflix and reading manga instead. There's still some digital purchasing of comics but that has stayed static at only about 10% of sales for the past decade. And for the Zoomers, it's even worse - they have no idea what comics are whatsoever.

Here's the main problem: when many of us were kids, we were still able to buy comics from the spinner racks in grocery stores or from the shelves of newsstands. That's how we discovered comics - it was so easy to walk down to the corner store and buy New Teen Titans and X-Men. Those days are long gone. As are the days when comic books had returnability like magazines.

Also long gone are the days when direct-market specialty comic shops were being mobbed in the 90s when Image Comics was huge, and all the Rob Liefeld and bad-girl comics were selling, and the X-Men cartoons were on TV. You still couldn't much on the Internet and you still had to go to the comics shop. The industry busted in the late 90s, and then later on The New 52 was a bad move for DC, many people didn't like it and walked away at that point.

What was left for DC was saved for a while by the popularity of the Rebirth titles, but that was really the last gasp for the comic shops.
In the meantime, Marvel tried endless special events, rebooting #1 titles over and over again, and lots of diversity flips on major characters to both gain notorious publicity and try to find a new younger and more diverse audience. Every attempt to try that failed - even the most popular characters they tried (Kamala Khan and Miles Morales) weren't that popular after all. That audience never showed up, and the only place that these books sold were to a couple thousand libraries. In some ways, librarians are helping to keep the comics industry afloat
right now. DC also tried to introduce a bunch of new heroes (such as Silencer) and none of them sold for squat. Comics are sitting in stores across the country, month after month, unable to be returned for store credit.

And you're right - crowdfunding is only a small percentage of customers, but it's a significant amount of money ripped away from the direct-market comic shops. Enter the MySharonaMileyCyrus from the city of Wuhan, and that closes the shops across the country, who have little or no cash reserves to stay open and are already paying their operational expenses month to month.

Probably what's going to come out of this is that a sizeable percentage of comics stores will have to close if they can't compensate by pumping
up their E-bay and online auction sales in the interim. Only the strongest stores will survive. Comics will never come back as strong as they once were in the 80s and 90s unless for some reason they start getting stocked in the supermarkets again. There are a handful of DC books in the WalMarts right now and that's it - if the managers of big box stores were smart, they'd open a comics section and corner the market. But they probably won't do that. The gigantic companies that own the Big 2 (AT&T and Disney) really don't care - they'd be happy just to live off
the movies, TV shows and merchandise generated from their long-established superhero properties.

So the comics industry will shrink down to a much smaller group of direct stores, and if Diamond doesn't survive then there'll be distributors who work with bookstores, and what's left beyond that will be crowdfunded.

Personally we are planning to launch an Indiegogo ourselves to introduce Heroineburgh Comics issues #1 and #2 at the same time to
crowdfunded audience. It's hashtag #PENCILSUP for us!

In the meantime, you can find us at least once a week helping to moderate the chats on a great Youtube channel called Crowdfunding Comics, hosted by Nile Scala and "teen sensation" Billy Tucci, the creator of the very sexy Japanese ninja heroine, Shi. The channel has interviews both with many up-and-coming indie creators and also with many mainstream industry pros, such as Jimmy Palmiotti (Harley Quinn), Brian Pulido (Lady Death), Erik Larsen (Savage Dragon), Matt Wagner (Grendel/Mage), Chuck Dixon (Birds of Prey/Batman), Marv Wolfman (Crisis on Infinite Earths), Larry Hama (GI Joe). Matt Hawkins (Witchblade) and Ethan Van Sciver (Cyberfrog/Green Lantern/Flash).

Here's a recent episode from March 25- with Palmiotti and Pulido to start you out!



 April 8 - Van Sciver and Dan Fraga

Last edit: 13 Apr 2020 07:40 by shevek.
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13 Apr 2020 13:14 #67659 by TwiceOnThursdays
Replied by TwiceOnThursdays on topic Pandemic = Kryptonite for comics?
Here is what some retailers are asking for change.

notice some is pretty easy and low hanging fruit.  Some deal w barcodes.

there is some targeted discussion on returns, and when it could happen.  

bleedingcool.com/comics/comic-book-retai...ket-when-it-returns/

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13 Apr 2020 13:14 #67660 by Sarge395
Replied by Sarge395 on topic Pandemic = Kryptonite for comics?
SJW Politics are a main reason I shut down supporting DC/Marvel.  I want unrealistically sexy characters at a minimum.  Not looking for another lecture about how horrible I am.

I've backed some comics but only for the digital formats as my long boxes are full and worthless for resale.  Some day 3D rendering will be super easy to use and we may have a backlash renaissance of swimsuit model fantasy figures fighting against actually evil forces instead of climate warming/cooling/change.

I vote with my wallet and my feet.  

That's just me.  
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13 Apr 2020 14:59 #67663 by TwiceOnThursdays
Replied by TwiceOnThursdays on topic Pandemic = Kryptonite for comics?

Idylls wrote:

TwiceOnThursdays wrote:

Idylls wrote: ps Twice, stop flip-flopping. 


I would love to know what you mean by this.   I’m always open to critique on any part of what I say.


You admit that there is a problem then site numbers and therefore conclude everything is gonna be fine. You even site Marvel's rise from bankruptcy therefore conclude it'll be fine. I like the optimism.

Yet you know there is a problem. You know about the lack of new readers, of shrinking orders, of dollar bins and unsold books, flooding shelves, of bad business practices. You understand it's unsustainable. I could list more but doing so is exasperating. I left Twitter years ago because reading all about them was depressing. 

Shouldn't we have learned the lesson.

I'll just say this indifference is what lead to where we are. Acknowledging there is a problem is only the start.

Granted just talking about the problem isn't going to do anything either. But I don't even think whatever solution is found that there is anyone that cares to listen. Even until now. 

#pencils down


If you think retailers, readers, and Marvel and DC are indifferent to all this you aren't paying attention and/or you are listening to the wrong people tell you things that are not true.

I do not conclude everything is going to be fine.  A LOT of businesses are going tits up do to Covid-19. That includes comic shops, and since they are over 50% of comic sales and the driver for new comic sales ... it won't take much to collapse the industry if enough stores fail.  IF stores can hang on and recover (IF), then the industry will return to being OK.   It'll actually be stronger if diamond, Marvel, and DC update their policies a bit to make it easier on stores.

I do maintain that this is NOT due to SJW crap.  : MULTIPLE industries are being hit right now.   And that's what I said from the start.

I suspect that ignoring the SJW problem is what you meant by "indifference".  Yes, most people are indifferent to this because IT IS NOT CORE PROBLEM.

Bad comics aren't new, and one kind of bad comic isn't the cause.  Re: sales, more comics are selling. The distinction of end sales vs what diamond ships doesn't matter ... stores ordered under the same conditions in 2009 and 2011 and 2020.

If anything stores are smarter now and have faster access to their sales data.  Almost every store today has electronic registers, 10 years ago I'd often go into stores and be manually rung up.  Stores had no direct idea what was selling, they'd have to go recount comics on the shelf to figure it out.  Now they get a nice report and can know instantly what isn't selling and start to make corrections.

(Retailers are asking for more flexibility in being able to adjust order totals,... it's sort discussed as "standardized printing" in one of their asks.)

Another thing said here, is that SJW stuff left the "industry on the ropes".  It was DYING.  IT was WORSE than it was, all due to SJW crap.

That's BULLSHIT.  That's what the numbers say.  Stores and publishers are in slightly better boats today than they were in 2009 or 2011.  They sell more comics and make more money.  Less likely to go tits up in 2020 than in 2011.   ANYONE (and I know this includes ya boi zack) that includes this as an element of their analysis is WRONG.  It's that simple, and this is the core of my responses. I also know no one (including you self admittedly) is going to change their mind due to this. It's all "But..." and denial of the numbers because it does not fit the narrative in your head.

I hope that was blunt enough.  Don't worry, no one changes their minds due to facts (It's been studied.)  That's how I knew it wouldn't change anyone's minds when I used them.  But... sometimes I like to tilt at windmills.  Also, it's because I WAS aware of the problems and I'd rather the focus be there instead of rants about SJWs.

The stores ARE having problems, it's just NOT new.  Do you know when the marvel policy on no returns started (for the direct market)?   The late 70's. It was part of what created the direct market.  They got steep discounts in return for "no returns".  (There's a lot of history there and direct market editions w/o barcodes, etc.)

Comics are not drawing in new readers.  This isn't something that suddenly happened, "omg young kids aren't reading comics".  It's been known for a LONG time.  SJW aren't the cause of no new readers.  New readers do not know about any of that crap, because they are new readers.

NONE of this is new, it's 20+ years old.  So to blame it on SJW crap is a bit silly to me.  Politics in comics aren't new.  Bad comics with trope characters aren't new.  Bad creators aren't new. People stopping reading comics due to EVENT or CONTENT is not new. (People stopped reading comics due to Crisis on Infinite Earths in the 80's. The 90's almost did me in.)  The no returns policy isn't new.  Yes there are problems, but "blame it on SJW" refrain is ... stupid.  It's blurring focus on the actual business problems at the retailers and turning into some fight that is distracting and polarizing.

We are LESS likely to solve the problems if our focus is on this shit, rather then numbers, business mechanics, and figuring out how to draw in young readers.

I posted a link to what retailers are asking for from publishers.  Notice not a single one of them is "stop the SJW comics!", and none of them  are about content.  Some are about formats (try a cheap anthology book!), but nothing on content. 

All this is good. IF the industry doesn't collapse, it should come back stronger due to this.
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13 Apr 2020 17:12 - 13 Apr 2020 17:14 #67667 by shadar
Replied by shadar on topic Pandemic = Kryptonite for comics?
Complaints about content and focus and culture and politics and sexuality in comics goes back a long ways, and in the mid-50's there were organized burnings of comics in some communities because of disagreements over content. The government was about to step in when the comic book industry came up with its own draconian code to control content. You gotta love (NOT!) the 1950's. 

This is what happens when politics invades the comic book industry, although as usual, in each time period, the cultural issues are different. Here's the COMICS CODE they came up with, and vigorously enforced until the wonderful 1960's when the beloved underground comics hit the scene to thumb its nose at everything in the CODE. I started reading comics in the latter part of the 50's, and it was dull wi this Code still in place. Which is why I love the liberalization of the 1960's SO MUCH!. 

COMICS CODE, circa 1954
  • Crimes shall never be presented in such a way as to create sympathy for the criminal, to promote distrust of the forces of law and justice, or to inspire others with a desire to imitate criminals.
  • If crime is depicted it shall be as a sordid and unpleasant activity.
  • Policemen, judges, government officials, and respected institutions shall never be presented in such a way as to create disrespect for established authority.
  • Criminals shall not be presented so as to be rendered glamorous or to occupy a position which creates a desire for emulation.
  • In every instance good shall triumph over evil and the criminal punished for his misdeeds.
  • Scenes of excessive violence shall be prohibited. Scenes of brutal torture, excessive and unnecessary knife and gunplay, physical agony, the gory and gruesome crime shall be eliminated.
  • No comic magazine shall use the words "horror" or "terror" in its title.
  • All scenes of horror, excessive bloodshed, gory or gruesome crimes, depravity, lust, sadism, masochism shall not be permitted.
  • All lurid, unsavory, gruesome illustrations shall be eliminated.
  • Inclusion of stories dealing with evil shall be used or shall be published only where the intent is to illustrate a moral issue and in no case shall evil be presented alluringly, nor so as to injure the sensibilities of the reader.
  • Scenes dealing with, or instruments associated with walking dead, torture, vampires and vampirism, ghouls, cannibalism, and werewolfism are prohibited.
  • Profanity, obscenity, smut, vulgarity, or words or symbols which have acquired undesirable meanings are forbidden.
  • Nudity in any form is prohibited, as is indecent or undue exposure.
  • Suggestive and salacious illustration or suggestive posture is unacceptable.
  • Females shall be drawn realistically without exaggeration of any physical qualities.
  • Illicit sex relations are neither to be hinted at nor portrayed. Rape scenes, as well as sexual abnormalities, are unacceptable.
  • Seduction and rape shall never be shown or suggested.
  • Sex perversion or any inference to same is strictly forbidden.
  • Nudity with meretricious purpose and salacious postures shall not be permitted in the advertising of any product; clothed figures shall never be presented in such a way as to be offensive or contrary to good taste or morals.

Anybody want to go back to these days?  Obviously, as Sarge suggests, people are entitled to vote with their feet. 

Shadar
Last edit: 13 Apr 2020 17:14 by shadar.
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13 Apr 2020 20:02 - 14 Apr 2020 01:23 #67672 by Sarge395
Replied by Sarge395 on topic Pandemic = Kryptonite for comics?
Love to hear all the opinions.  Just saying what was a big factor for me to bail on my local shop and switch to a few digital treasures.  For me and me only I can say what turned me off of printed comics.  By comics I don't mean the comic code was the killer.  That code doesn't mean squat to most people in my opinion since kids are not buying them.  Plus kids are allowed by their parents to surf the web unfiltered and watch whatever they want on cable.  I'm old enough to remember seeing my first R rated movie (Excalibur).  My mother took me after a lot of begging.  She actually covered my eyes a few times.  Embarrassing but a fond memory.  Now five year olds are watching shit like SAW or worse.

This sparked me to go back and look at some old 'comics' I have.  This is what I used to buy and didn't care about resale or speculating.  I also had a ton of Supergirl comics.  She went through some hot changes.  Check out Sinnamon.  I have the first 10 or so of those. Anyone want them?  Just pay me shipping within the USA.  Plenty on Ebay but none with bids.  lol

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13 Apr 2020 21:45 #67676 by shadar
Replied by shadar on topic Pandemic = Kryptonite for comics?

Sarge395 wrote: Love to hear all the opinions.  Just saying what was a big factor for me to bail on my local shop and switch to a few digital treasures.  For me and me only I can say what turned me off of printed comics.  By comics I don't mean the comic code was the killer.  That code doesn't mean squat to most people in my opinion since kids are buying them.  Plus kids are allowed by their parents to surf the web unfiltered and watch whatever they want on cable.  I'm old enough to remember seeing my first R rated movie (Excalibur).  My mother took me after a lot of begging.  She actually covered my eyes a few times.  Embarrassing but a fond memory.  Now five year olds are watching shit like SAW or worse.

This sparked me to go back and look at some old 'comics' I have.  This is what I used to buy and didn't care about resale or speculating.  I also had a ton of Supergirl comics.  She went through some hot changes.  Check out Sinnamon.  I have the first 10 or so of those. Anyone want them?  Just pay me shipping within the USA.  Plenty on Ebay but none with bids.  lol


I very fondly remember Sinnamon and also Penthouse Comics. Incredible art and some truly adult, if not excessive, nc17 to x-rated story lines. Exploitive, yes, and not great literary classics or plots, even by comicdom standards, but fun. Just pure sexy fun.

Those were much more to my liking than mainstream comics (other than my incurable attachment to SG/PG) and opened my mind to the possibilities.

Early underground comics had terrible artwork, but once some talented artists (like the one that drew this cover from Sarge) came onboard, it was awesome. 

Shadar
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13 Apr 2020 22:52 #67678 by anonxyzus
Replied by anonxyzus on topic Pandemic = Kryptonite for comics?
I read through the thread. A lot of different opinions here. I've got to say, though, that what makes the biggest impression on me is the price
of comics. The last time I bought a comic book, it cost 12 cents.

At that price, a kid (me) could go through the clothes in his parents
closets and find enough change for at least one, and maybe two or three
comic books.
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13 Apr 2020 23:46 - 14 Apr 2020 00:14 #67679 by Kamelmann
Replied by Kamelmann on topic Pandemic = Kryptonite for comics?
So many excellent comments and some really cracking discussion to read through.

One thing that struck me with all of this (and if I missed it I apologise), is how quickly Diamond folded (2ish weeks?) despite having a monopoly on physical distribution. I think that alone is quite telling.

Next, how quickly the pencils down came out.

I saw lots of excellent points all round on the culture side, and whats interesting for me on SJW stuff is that if they wrote good stories then I think most people wouldn't mind it so much. The only really good example I've seen was "Excellence" which whilst yes was full of SJW style culture, it was so well written you could actually emphasise with the characters, their actions, and their goals. 

Which the flip side of that? Well a lot of the more blatant SJW stuff is akin to Ignited. Which I'll spare a rant on, but they have the subtlety of she hulk ripping a bank door open, and the tact of staring at powergirls assets. They don't write the characters well, and they are often complete hypocrites (one of the more recent she hulks was... shocking).

If the characters look like potato, I can kinda deal with that if the story is good. But I do get the pleasure of escapism in seeing physically stunning characters.

As for the staff who are insulting people on twitter, and getting positions with questionably slim credentials.. *shrug* if they want to insult their customers then the free market will do what it does (as seen with the independent guys doing so well). There are notable examples of several current writers and artists conflating twitter retweets and likes as likely sales (which then don't pan out).. and if that's what they want to chase.. let 'em.

The industries self destructive or toxic behaviour doesn't erase the past that we can all revel in, and enjoy. And personally I look forward to the new, independent and crowd driven future ahead of us. :)

Edit: Just as an addendum on the sales, we should not forget that whilst yes many comics start and are cancelled relatively quickly, some of the classics do still sell well. But the key thing (which loops back to Diamond), is this question: Is the industry profitable enough? Twice did some really fantastic analysis (thank you for that!) on the industry as a whole growing $300 million over a 9 year span. But the question (which I don't know if we can even access the stats on) is what was their overheads? What was the profit margin made? I'd like to hope a $33 million per year growth would be enough for them to stay in line with inflation, lawsuits, building rent, etc but if I understood the post correctly then that $33 million is split across all the market players? 

So again: Diamond. In 2ish weeks they ran out of cash and will now only be paying 25% of their committed expenses for the next month (and not sure what after that). Maybe they had been investing it all to be lean and can extract it back to pay off their debts, but it's quite a disturbing sign. No idea about DC or Marvels financials from the comics side but if anyone knows anything specifically on their financials it'd be good to discuss.
Last edit: 14 Apr 2020 00:14 by Kamelmann.
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14 Apr 2020 00:22 - 14 Apr 2020 00:24 #67680 by kikass2014
Replied by kikass2014 on topic Pandemic = Kryptonite for comics?

One thing that struck me with all of this (and if I missed it I apologise), is how quickly Diamond folded (2ish weeks?) despite having a monopoly on physical distribution. I think that alone is quite telling.

Next, how quickly the pencils down came out.

I saw lots of excellent points all round on the culture side, and whats interesting for me on SJW stuff is that if they wrote good 
stories then I think most people wouldn't mind it so much. The only really good example I've seen was "Excellence" which whilst yes was full of SJW style culture, it was so well written you could actually emphasise with the characters, their actions, and their goals. 

Which the flip side of that? Well a lot of the more blatant SJW stuff is akin to Ignited. Which I'll spare a rant on, but they have the subtlety of she hulk ripping a bank door open, and the tact of staring at powergirls assets. They don't write the characters well, and they are often complete hypocrites (one of the more recent she hulks was... shocking).

If the characters look like potato, I can kinda deal with that if the story is good. But I do get the pleasure of escapism in seeing physically stunning characters.

As for the staff who are insulting people on twitter, and getting positions with questionably slim credentials.. *shrug* if they want to insult their customers then the free market will do what it does (as seen with the independent guys doing so well). There are notable examples of several current writers and artists conflating twitter retweets and likes as likely sales (which then don't pan out).. and if that's what they want to chase.. let 'em.



This is exactly right.  But the current crop of "creatives" have no ideas, no talent, no imagination.  Thus ALL they CAN write is SJW stuff.

Lets take a look at DC's recent GOTHAM HIGH.  Hmm.  Who is this book for?  Lets say I've been tasked with writing a Batman book.  Clearly I would be targeting Batman fans to buy my book.  As such, I would look at things that would interest these fans to weave into a story.  So, you have the icons of Batman  (obviously), Joker, Catwoman, Robin, etc.  All things Batman fans want to see in their heroes story.

What do we get with GOTHAM HIGH?  Bruce Wayne is now half-Chinese (WTF??), Alfred is his GAY UNCLE, Robin is a fat, useless black kid, Poison Ivy is half korean, and Catwoman is a nympho who wants a threesome with Bruce and Joker.  Oh, and guess who the bad guys are?  Yup, JOKER and TWO FACE, two straight white males.

Now if I'm a Batman fan, why would I buy this?  In fact, who would buy this EXCEPT this phantom SJW audience that they keep pandering too.  Yet time and again, it has been shown that this audience DOES NOT SPEND MONEY on this stuff.  You only need to look at the cinema market to see that.  How many woke films have flopped in the last year?

And this is why the comic book stores are closing.  Yes, the pandemic is a factor, but this is something that has been coming for a long while.

ToT i admire your research, but i think the conclusion drawn is wrong.  LFan I believe mentioned it, comic stores would stock the latest comics.  However, they would have to eat the costs of those not sold.  Sure, you would have "pulls" as you call them (Standing Orders here in the UK :) ) but the rest, well tough.  And there is most certainly a minimum order when dealing with Diamond.

Now, if things we going well and these comics were selling, wouldn't the shops have funds to help them whether through?  Since they are folding left and right, I would surmise that this is not the case.

In regards to looking into this, I would suggest listening to what people who have left the industry have said/are saying.  You sounded a little disparaging when I mentioned Ethan, but as someone who has worked in the industry I am sure he knows something about it.  Also, you asked who my sources were. There are a bunch of comentators on youtube you can look for.  Ya Boi Zach for example.  Also, one of them is an ex-comic shop owner, who is friends with Brian Hibbs (he sold his comic book store to him when he got out the business).  Who as you know is the author of the "manifesto" you linked.  BTW, Rich Johnston is a piece of ... well thats for another discussion.

Anyway, good discussion.  You clearly like the way the industry is as you are still buying comics.  I'm not going to change your mind, and I wouldn't want to.  However, I will completely disagree that politics had nothing to do with the decline of this industry, maybe even go so far as to say it was the main (not sole) factor.

.....Anybody want to go back to these days?



Shadar, you are better then this.  This is the worst argument ever.  "At least things are better now"  is a terrible argument for a debate.  Its like someone constantly punching you in the nuts, then switching to kicking you in the shin.  Sure, its better then being punched in the nuts, but I'd rather not be kicked in the shin either.

The industries self destructive or toxic behaviour doesn't erase the past that we can all revel in, and enjoy. And personally I look forward to the new, independent and crowd driven future ahead of us. 

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Totally agree :) 

Peace.

/K
Last edit: 14 Apr 2020 00:24 by kikass2014.
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14 Apr 2020 00:45 #67682 by TwiceOnThursdays
Replied by TwiceOnThursdays on topic Pandemic = Kryptonite for comics?

shadar wrote:

I very fondly remember Sinnamon and also Penthouse Comics. Incredible art and some truly adult, if not excessive, nc17 to x-rated story lines. Exploitive, yes, and not great literary classics or plots, even by comicdom standards, but fun. Just pure sexy fun.

Those were much more to my liking than mainstream comics (other than my incurable attachment to SG/PG) and opened my mind to the possibilities.

Early underground comics had terrible artwork, but once some talented artists (like the one that drew this cover from Sarge) came onboard, it was awesome. 

Shadar


I’m not normally for things that geared mainly towards nudity (I don’t mind nudity but if nudity is the driving point it tends to not interest me), but those Penthouse Comix were awesome.  Adam Hughes is one of my favorites, so I loved the Hurricane stories.  But, all the others were awesome too.

One of the other comics in that vein that I got was Bill Willingham’s Ironwood.  Just raunchy fun.   (He’s more famous for Fables and Elementals. OTH, no nudity but he’s Pantheon series is pretty good too.)  There somewhere in a box that I will have to eventually sort through and when I do I’m going to stop and read them.

Probably the closest to that in the mainstream was John Byrne’s She-Hulk Graphic Novel (though it had artful blocking panels).  Or him drawing She-Hulk jump roping “naked” (then making a joke that it was a tiny bikini because “comics code”).

 iblogalot.com/2014/06/25/the-sensational...vel18-by-john-byrne/

If Marvel published something like that today I think heads would explode.
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14 Apr 2020 02:22 #67684 by shadar
Replied by shadar on topic Pandemic = Kryptonite for comics?

kikass2014 wrote:

One thing that struck me with all of this (and if I missed it I apologise), is how quickly Diamond folded (2ish weeks?) despite having a monopoly on physical distribution. I think that alone is quite telling.

Next, how quickly the pencils down came out.

I saw lots of excellent points all round on the culture side, and whats interesting for me on SJW stuff is that if they wrote good 
stories then I think most people wouldn't mind it so much. The only really good example I've seen was "Excellence" which whilst yes was full of SJW style culture, it was so well written you could actually emphasise with the characters, their actions, and their goals. 

Which the flip side of that? Well a lot of the more blatant SJW stuff is akin to Ignited. Which I'll spare a rant on, but they have the subtlety of she hulk ripping a bank door open, and the tact of staring at powergirls assets. They don't write the characters well, and they are often complete hypocrites (one of the more recent she hulks was... shocking).

If the characters look like potato, I can kinda deal with that if the story is good. But I do get the pleasure of escapism in seeing physically stunning characters.

As for the staff who are insulting people on twitter, and getting positions with questionably slim credentials.. *shrug* if they want to insult their customers then the free market will do what it does (as seen with the independent guys doing so well). There are notable examples of several current writers and artists conflating twitter retweets and likes as likely sales (which then don't pan out).. and if that's what they want to chase.. let 'em.



.....Anybody want to go back to these days?



Shadar, you are better then this.  This is the worst argument ever.  "At least things are better now"  is a terrible argument for a debate.  Its like someone constantly punching you in the nuts, then switching to kicking you in the shin.  Sure, its better then being punched in the nuts, but I'd rather not be kicked in the shin either.



Peace.

/K

  

I think you are confusing my argument. My point is that comics have often been dripping in social statements and politics over the last 50+ years. And in the past, they were sharply limited in the kinds of portrayals they could put in a comic.

The politics and culture of comics was the straight, white world, with very little exploration of different racial groups, sexual persuasions, and leftish politics. A few black and asian faces now and again, but usually in secondary roles and often villains.

Now the comics can explore the full range of the human condition. I think Social Justice is a wonderful thing, and exploring all the various perturbations in modern society is terrific progress. I certainly don't ever want to go back a world that's only white and straight (even though I am both). 

Unfortunately, some writers error on the side of making the villains white and straight, and the heroes either people of color or queer or whatever. That's excessive and uncalled for, I agree, but that's not the only thing that's going on. And one doesn't need to be so sensitive about it. It's an exploration. 

Anyway, I celebrate as much diversity as can be driven onto the page or the screen, even if it means redefining historical comic characters, which is being done constantly anyway. 

I will agree that storytelling has declined precipitously at the same time, and that's my gripe. There does not need to be any connection between SJW portrayals and bad storytelling. But both are happening together, so I understand why you may think they are related. As I see it, they are simply hiring bad writers. For my money, keep the SJW focus and hire good writers and great artists and explore all the myriad ways in great stories. I'd be happy. 

Shadar
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14 Apr 2020 05:26 #67686 by TwiceOnThursdays
Replied by TwiceOnThursdays on topic Pandemic = Kryptonite for comics?
Shit, It looks like I messed up quoting, and I lost the second ref to editing so I'm not fixing it. I'm sorry (please look at the other posts to determine who said what).


One thing that struck me with all of this (and if I missed it I apologise), is how quickly Diamond folded (2ish weeks?) despite having a monopoly on physical distribution. I think that alone is quite telling.




You paint this shutdown from Diamond as something economic.  They could not afford to stay open as they didn't have the money to keep running.  That's not the impression i get from Press Releases and everything else.  Is that what you are claiming?  And if so, what's your source for this?  (That's also the impression I got from Ya Boi Zack.)

My take is simple: a majority of stores they ship to were shut down.  (And by the majority of stores, it's probably numerical too, but I took it as a clear majority of product to be shipped.)

Furthermore, three of their distribution centers were shut down (NY, CA, PA).  That means they were already hampered by law on what they COULD ship, and they would face logistical problems getting books out.

https://www.diamondcomics.com/Home/1/1/3/597?articleID=241552

This action was lauded by the comic store owners in my area who were shut down by Governor DeWine. If Diamond did not shut down, they would have kept shipping them a product they ordered and would have to pay for it, but would not be able to sell it.

And, at the time, idiots might have thought the shutdown would end as initially planned in my sate (April 6), but everyone with half a brain cell knew it was going to be 1-4 months, not weeks.  Why try to operate when you can't ship most of your product, a good chunk of your distribution network is shuttered, AND trying to ship stuff is only going to strain a transportation network that has better things to do anyway.(because it's partially shut down and it's now shifting to emergency ship a lot of medical supplies)?

I know the truth might be more, so if you have some source for that, I'd welcome to hear it. 



Next, how quickly the pencils down came out.



Again, you make this seem like "they didn't have any money so had to shut down!"  All the things I said above applies to this too.  If you make 12 issues of Superman a year.  And two of those you can't ship, you don't want to make 12 issues of Superman. You want to make 10.  And only an idiot would have thought we were going to shut down for two weeks, it's going to be two+ months. It's already been a month, and it'll go more before we are done.  ANY rational business planner would have looked at that and said "we have to stop making some things".

Now, if something like Hickman's X-Men revamp was in the pipeline, then they'd cancel the filler issues that were taking up space until the new deal arrives .... but keep Hickman's revamp in motion.  As they want that to come out and be ready ASAP.  Not making the filler issues would be a bonus.  And if you look, some projects are continuing (as the original article that sparked this thread attests to.)  Also if a book is behind, it's a great time to catch back up.

So at some point, you have to go "there isn't any reason to make another superman comic right now".   And stop.

Why are you reading more into that?  That's the simplest explanation.   you went with a more complicated one, indicating that the industry is like two weeks from collapse and that's why everything shut down and they are now broke and closed forever.

So, any source for why you think this?

Again, Ethan doesn't work for a comic book company. Neigther does Ya Boi Zack.  Your ex-comic book store owner ... well, I might listen to him but ... notably, he doesn't work for them either so.

Now Ethan and co probably talk to some working creators .. .becuse Ethan worked with them and they are friends. So they might talk to him "off the record" and they don't want to say anything in public.  But, the little I've read and listened to them they ARE NOT claiming this.  In particular, I listed to Ya Boi Zack peddle this theory on absolute HOT AIR.  He merely said it like it was a fact.  And then said this stunning piece of idiocy "Magazines are not having problems. Newspapers aren't having problems... Just comics. This PROVEs the industry was about to collapse (blah blah)."  ( I mentioned this in another thread about Amazing Mary Jane awhile ago)

It's stunning in it's idiocy.  Because it's so obviously wrong.  For instance, just look at the headings of these articles:  https://www.publishersweekly.com/pw/by-topic/industry-news/trade-shows-events/article/82672-covid-19-ongoing-list-of-cancellations.html

Yes, lots of "how will bookstores get by", people opening Go Fund Me's to save their local bookstores from shutdown, etc etc

you don't have to look hard for articles   Oh, look, here's one about newspapers:  https://www.theguardian.com/media/2020/mar/20/local-newspapers-coronavirus-economic-impact

There was a popular post by an author on how (literary, not comic) books are being delayed or canceled due to Covid-19 and it affects their income/livelyhood.  some of them are 'pencilsdown" too.

So, Zack's statement is stunning in that it's ABSOLUTELY TOTALLY WRONG.  Those industries are HEAVILY AFFECTED.  And they are affected JUST LIKE  THE COMIC BOOK INDUSTRY. So, I guess all their problems are SJW problems too?  Or wait, maybe it's something more basic and economic?  Like not being able to make money because a store is closed yet still have to pay bills might lead stores to go bankrupt?

But he talked about it and used it as  prop for shoring up that "pencils down" was something more, darker, about how it proved the industry was always in imminent collapse and proof that meant the industry would never ever reopen.

So.. no I am totally NOT impressed by Ya Boi Zacks' analytical skills.  He's telling a story he wants to tell, looking at only what he wants to look at, and then making shit up. (re: like just about any analyst in existence so it's not terribly unusual). You have to WORK to be that stupid.

But he built part of his prof on an absolutely easily proven fallacy. If he were building it on ACTUAL INSIDE KNOWLEDGE he wouldn't have needed to do.  He'd just have said "I was told by someone I can't name that..."

Also, he said it with this sort of .. proudness.  Like he was making a genius point.  He thought he was being smart, when he was saying something moronic. 

So..if he's your source: Please stop. Get another one.  On this issue, in particular, I don't trust anything he says.

Note, i'm merely talking about his skills and analysis of this in particular.  I've not listened to him talk about reviewing comics (much), or read his comic, and i'm sure he's a pretty good CyberSecurity guy.  And my guess is he's likely smarter than I am. But that doesn't stop him from being an idiot at times.  And this is demonstratively one of them. I am categorically saying that on this he's an anti-source since everything he says will have to be parsed and vetted through other sources -- just use those first. If you have them.


I saw lots of excellent points all round on the culture side, and whats interesting for me on SJW stuff is that if they wrote good 
stories then I think most people wouldn't mind it so much. The only really good example I've seen was "Excellence" which whilst yes was full of SJW style culture, it was so well written you could actually emphasise with the characters, their actions, and their goals. 

Which the flip side of that? Well a lot of the more blatant SJW stuff is akin to Ignited. Which I'll spare a rant on, but they have the subtlety of she hulk ripping a bank door open, and the tact of staring at powergirls assets. They don't write the characters well, and they are often complete hypocrites (one of the more recent she hulks was... shocking).




See, I don't care.  Because of the example, you used (Gotham High) I had only BARELY heard of. I didn't even check it's sales.  This is a problem that takes care of itself.  Produce crap?  It doesn't sell.  Eventually, they stop making crap like that.  

OTH, you seemed to miss the point.   It's not written to EXISTING BATMAN fans. It's an experiment to see if it can reach NEW Fans.

Now I happen to think it's a stunning failure at that...because those new fans you bring in, you want to eventually sell them your other comics and they'll be like "Why isn't Bruce Wayne Asian?"

It's ok to be different ..... but there is a point in which even if you succeed you aren't going to succeed.   This seems stupid all the way around.

But I do give DC points for trying various things (Super Hero Girls, the failed Wallmart Giant Size Comics, Holiday Anthology comics, their young adult and middle school titles

Gotham High IS one of these. But I find it interesting that I thought it was Gotham Acadamy and wondered what the hell you were talking about at first.  I had to look it up.

I knew of Wonder Woman: Warbringer, the Oracle Code (own), Shadow of the Batgirl, Zatanna and the House of Secrets (which I own but have not read.... because Zee), Batman: Overdrive, Green Lanter: Legacy (and some of the others too).  That is I knew (and could actually name) several of these.   But NOT Gothan High.  And since Catwoman is a major character it would have dinged my radar as I like Catwoman and look at everything she is in. I don't have to buy Catwoman. I do have to buy Zee things.

But even after looking at it I barely remembered seeing it somewhere.  So again, I think you are focusing on a minor thing, one that failed, that has almost no significance at all... and are acting as if it does.

And, if you can't find more relevant examples .. maybe they do not exist?

And this is precisely why I'm skeptical of making this all a SJW/politics in comics problem. (Especially when politics have ALWAYS been in comics.)

]

kikass2014 wrote: Now, if things we going well and these comics were selling, wouldn't the shops have funds to help them whether through?  Since they are folding left and right, I would surmise that this is not the case.



So this is funny coming from me. But you talked a LOT about your theory and explaining why it was true.  Its complex, and you rant a bit about a totally non-essential book that I, a super comic nerd that buys 20+ comics a week, did not recognize and had to google. (Despite knowing almost every other book in the initiative.)

As I mentioned above, LOTS of businesses in many industries are struggling to have two months of almost no income.  NOT just comic book stores.  There are a bunch of links above, go look at them.  I think I have conclusively proven this point.

Occam's razor. If there is a simple explanation, it's probably the one.

Simple explanation: most small businesses can't run for 2-4 months of no income so are having problems during this shutdown and might go bankrupt. Comic Book stores are small businesses, and thus are having this problem.

Why do you think it's more complex than that?   In the face of ALL THE OTHER BUSINESSES having the EXACT SAME PROBLEM, maybe it's a generic problem and not a comic book industry-specific problem?

Or at least, can you grok why I might be buying this line of reasoning instead of blaming SJW and politics in comics?  And doubling down on the comment "Especially when your examples are minor comics of no import".

kikass2014 wrote: In regards to looking into this, I would suggest listening to what people who have left the industry have said/are saying.  You sounded a little disparaging when I mentioned Ethan, but as someone who has worked in the industry I am sure he knows something about it.  Also, you asked who my sources were. There are a bunch of comentators on youtube you can look for.  Ya Boi Zach for example.  Also, one of them is an ex-comic shop owner, who is friends with Brian Hibbs (he sold his comic book store to him when he got out the business).  Who as you know is the author of the "manifesto" you linked.  BTW, Rich Johnston is a piece of ... well thats for another discussion.



Ok first let's totally agree that Rich Johnson is a piece of shit. I _almost_ did not publish the link, but figured he was quoting something else so hopefully, he didn't cock that up too much.  Also, I think the store owners are too paranoid about digital comics but I get why they are.  And I think they fail to capitalize on "Trade Waiting" as you can make some serious money on GN sales too... but.. they run stores and should know their businesses better than I do, so I'm probably wrong about the trades. (It just smells like "it's a new way of thinking and I don't like it. Let's do the old way."  And THE OLD WAY IS NOT WORKING.  And that's a topic I'll hit again later, but the feeling was here too.

Ethan's a complex case for me.  For one, he's a known asshole. I've SEEN him be an asshole on twitter to Darwyn Cook's widow. (I did use to follow Ethan on twitter, and I stopped then. He did apologize later.)  OTH, I've also read a bunch of things from him that I agree with, some I disagree with but accept his viewpoint as interesting and thought-provoking, and some stuff that I go "??" But I have a similar relationship with Mark Waid.   Sometimes Mark does some asshole things (calling a publisher to say "do you know who you are doing business with?" is 100% an asshole move.) Sometimes Mark says some boneheaded things. But mostly... he's worth listening too, sometimes especially when I disagree with him. Ethan is worth listening too.  But...I also treat both as biased sources.  Ethan has an economic interest in championing his world view. It doesn't make what he says WRONG, it means I listen carefully as there is probably something he is seeing the way he does because he NEEDS to. His new kickstarter-centric world view is very good to him.  Also he feels pretty badly done by the pro comics world and is bitter.  So sometimes he's speaking from hurt and anger.

I covered what I think of Ya Boi Zack's opinion on this.  He's said things that to me were absolutely idiotic.  I listened a bit more to see if it recovered and he doubled down so ... Nope.  (Also, too much noise not enough signal, AND the signal was bad.)  You will actually have to work to get me to accept him as a source. And, in fact, listing him as YOUR source does no help for me believing what you say.  (But my opposition is based on what i said, not simply "I do not like someone you listen to."  Ideas are not wrong based on who said them.)

As an aside, I didn't know Ya Boi Zack was Richard Meyer, and thus was the guy Waid pulled his dick move on.  Not really relevant, but I can see why he doesn't like people in the comic book industry and takes glee in their misery.  Which he did, and this doesn't really go over well for me either.  Notice, that I have given Zack props for making a comic, and while I'm harsh on his analysis here, I'm also open to temper that opinion and keep it in bounds (he might be fine in other contexts). I also wish him no ill will (as I don't wish anyone ill will).  I don't take joy in the misery of others, or when I do, I feel I have failed somehow.  Zack is pretty happy these people are having a bad time.  That's just not the kind of person I want to spend time with or listen to ... or at least not unless they have something really interesting/insightful/artful to say.  Which I don't think he does.  Now, none of that makes him WRONG, what makes him wrong is that idiotic argument he used.

This, of course, is my opinion and value judgment. You are quite free to make your own, as you have.  I'm just going to emphatically refuse to go listen to anything else, I don't have that time to waste. I might go find what Ethan is saying.



kikass2014 wrote: Anyway, good discussion.  You clearly like the way the industry is as you are still buying comics.  I'm not going to change your mind, and I wouldn't want to.  However, I will completely disagree that politics had nothing to do with the decline of this industry, maybe even go so far as to say it was the main (not sole) factor.



I do agree it's a great discussion.

Increasing sales != decline.   I know this might be a rough thing to grasp, but I think if we work at it maybe it'll get through to you.  I'd say sorry for the sarcasm ... but I know that nothing will get through anyway.  (Facts do not change people's minds. It's been studied. Sometimes I use sarcasm.)

And since the first part of your premise is faulty, then  ... I think the second one fails at the base.  Also, while I agree the industry has problems (too much is being shouldered by independent comic book stores), they are NOT new, and are mostly business issues as well as the existential threat to comics: no new readers.

The core problem is one of simple math.  If you aren't bringing in NEW customers, and customers naturally leave over time, your base is going to shrink to nothing eventually.  THAT is the core problem.   I haven't proved anything, but.. I think as the comics population ages up, their income increases, so fewer people are buying more comics.  But this is a short term boost. It'll fail.  Both Marvel and DC are aware of this.

Part of what you see as "a SJW Problem" or "too much politics in books" is part of the publishers searching around for an answer to this existential question, as the one thing they know 100% is that THE OLD ANSWER DOESN"T WORK, because it didn't work.  So "Making comics like they used to" is the one thing we know does not work long term.  From what I gather, part of comicsgate mantra seems to be saying that's what should be done.   This is exactly the wrong thing to do.

Instead of harping on Gotham High, look at the other books in the series.  Do any work?  Is one of them better?  Praise it, and maybe get a copy for a kid might like to read it.  THAT is path forward.  Focusing on an inconsequential failure and saying "see! this one sucks" and ignoring all the other efforts to bring in good readers is slapping the publishers for their attempts to bring in new readers.

You ain't helping, you are hurting.  (I'm hurting by buying trash books, so there is plenty to go around.) And you are echo chambering this belief and amplifying this "common wisdom". It's very possible I'm wrong ... but I'm not making very complicated leaps or inferences here.  I'm not peddling conspiracy theories or laying down anecdotes.

Companies were making comics as they used to.. .and noticed they weren't getting any new readers. So they started to try different things to get new readers.  Some of these changes make current readers mad and they throw rants on the internet and try to stop that small part and hyperfocus on it.   The overreaction confuses everyone else and gets in the way of people looking for a workable solution. End Story.  (In the meantime, like always there were some good comics made, and some bad comics made, and life went on.)

(I have two of these books, and plan to read them to see if i can gift copies of them to friend's daughters this xmas.  Oracle and the Zee ones.)

What I think you (and your sources) are overlooking is that readers leaving is natural and has always happened.  I said in another post: readers left due to crisis on infinite Earths in the 80's.  I almost left due to shitty comics in the 90's (actually I DID drastically reduce for awhile). So you see things like 52, or some people being angry over politics in comics stop buying comics.  And maybe YOU stopped buying comics due to it, so it's PERSONAL.  Since the internet allows everyone to be heard, they're now much more visible than in the past.  Humans are REALLY bad at estimating danger in the modern world (our danger sense is geared towards "is that movement in the grass wind or a Lion" and if you guess wrong, you are Lion food). So you see these people leaving, and it seems MUCH LARGER than in the past (w/ no internet) and thus A BIG THING.  So you overestimate it's importance.  And once you believe that, the fact that sales are increasing, well, you ignore that fact as you are wedded to your belief and what you feel to be true.

Also, I know that absolutely NONE of his will ever get through to you.  Again, facts do not change people's minds. (Well that last paragraph isn't fact, it's conjecture.  And sorry for putting words into your mouth... really I'm speaking of people who say what you are saying in general (a general You not a specific You), I don't know you in specific enough to judge why you think what you think.

What I hope you'll do is stop, and maybe try to look at the world from my viewpoint for a bit and see what it looks like. ;-)  Trust me, I've spent time listening to comicsgate people to devil's advocate what I think. (It's why I was following Ethan for a while, because a bunch of people told me not to, and well, I have to go find out for myself.)

And good comment about my opinions on what I like.  Because one thing i've always been clear on, is that your opinion on what you like/don't like is ALWAYS 100% valid.  No one can tell you what you should think about a piece of art.  Like/dislike what you want, no one needs anyone's blessing or permission about that.  And your money and attention is 100% yours to spend.

You don't like "SJW Comics' (however you define them)... do not buy them.  If enough people agree with you, no one will buy it, it will fail, and something better will come along.

Yes, I STILL like a lot of modern comics. OTH, I also buy some because I'm a collector and "I HAVE TO" (illogical obsession).

so while I wasn't happy with Supergirl, I was buying it.  And as I said before, "I'm part of the problem". The current comic NEEDED to fail so DC would find a new creative team and relaunch it.  Not buying it is how it fails.

But this is probably 5 comics out of the 20 or so i buy a week.  I buy a LOT of independents, and some end up being crap.  I'm skeptical of a new Marvel/DC title, but if I am mildly interested in an indie comic, I buy it. I like to encourage them.

so here is a smattering of my comics buying and a comment. Someone mentioned the first one, so I do too. Curiously it was mentioned as "good" and I gave it up.;-)


I ended up not liking "EXCELLENCE". I thought the premise was interesting, and it started strong.. but it just lost my attention.   I never really figured out what was wrong with it, I just found myself distracted and bored when I was reading it.  Strong first issue.

OTH, Space Bandits was just stupid fun. It tried too hard sometimes, but fun gets through to me.

Lazarus by Rucka is FANTASTIC and has a main character I think many here would like (but it's DENSE with politics, in the way that Game of Thrones is.  It's central to the story.  But it's dystopian Sci Fi  not fantasy.)

Brubaker and Philips make me like crime comics .Fatale and Criminal are good. So is the Long Weekend.

I LOVE Terry Moore so am enjoying Five Years.  (My daughter's license plate is KATCHOO.)

Jimmy Olson just reminds me of the old Jimmy Olson comics (except better written) and is much more fun than it has the right to be.  (Lois Lane is also good but isn't as fun.)  Seriously it's stupid in a good way.  Try it.  And I wonder if Shadar would enjoy this for it's feel even w/o Supergirl ;-) 

I'm .. still trying to decide if I like Bendis on Superman.  (I do hope he got Supergirl canceled to make it better).I am enjoying Young Justice though it doesn't seem to go anywhere. Props for a bit in Skartaris!

I hate Metal and the recent Justice League arc.  It all needs to end ASAP.  One of the few things that I will actively go "I do not like this".

From Marvel i am enjoying the New Spider-woman and Star.  The Ben Grimm wedding issue warmed my heart (I'm a huge Thing fan). Also the issue where he fought the Immortal Hulk.  GREAT Ben Grim issue.   There was a good arc in Conan, but I think i might be done with it now. I want to stop buying Savage Avengers but .. each month I manage to find some reason to buy another month.  I have hopes for Strange Academy, but it's too soon to tell yet.

The jury is still out for me on Hickman's X-Men revamp.  I fear he's not going to stick the landing and it's going to make the entire thing stupid .. but it's interesting. I like it when people "swing for the fence" and try something.  There are a LOT of X-Men comics, so trying something
NEW is worthwhile.  I don't think it's actually Xavier but he's C-R-E-E-P-Y.  Also, while I thought it was out of character (and maybe there is a reason for it), I really like Drunk Pirate Kate (not Kitty) Pryde in Mauraduers..  She's spending some time dead now.  I hope she gets better.

FF has been... tolerable with a few gems  (it's another "I have to buy it", I have every FF comic from 129+  And I would hope people here know EXACTLY why my FF collection run starts at 129.)

But for marvel I suggest just getting Marvel Unlimited and reading comics electronically six months later.  That's the best way to test out the new X-men (there are too many titles).

I also can't seem to pass up Vampironica.  Ronnie as a vampire?  Oh, just take my money.   It's sort of floundering now, the first arc was new and fun.  I also bought Sabrina dating Archie because I like her too.  For some reason I buy a lot of comics with women as the star....

After Nancy Drew and Mr. and Mrs. X, I buy anything Kelly Thompson writes, as I found those worthwhile. (So far she's doing pretty well. Also I like Jeff the landshark. Sue me.)

Far from complete, but that's maybe some stuff people might want to look at? ALL modern comics are not shite.

Anyway, that's my "obseessed comics geek what he can remember" short list of things to look at.

And I support a lot of creators on Kickstarter too.  I could list those but someone already did a much better job at it (it was a great list, flip back a page and read it).

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14 Apr 2020 06:06 #67687 by TwiceOnThursdays
Replied by TwiceOnThursdays on topic Pandemic = Kryptonite for comics?

shadar wrote:
I think you are confusing my argument. My point is that comics have often been dripping in social statements and politics over the last 50+ years. And in the past, they were sharply limited in the kinds of portrayals they could put in a comic.

The politics and culture of comics was the straight, white world, with very little exploration of different racial groups, sexual persuasions, and leftish politics. A few black and asian faces now and again, but usually in secondary roles and often villains.

Now the comics can explore the full range of the human condition. I think Social Justice is a wonderful thing, and exploring all the various perturbations in modern society is terrific progress. I certainly don't ever want to go back a world that's only white and straight (even though I am both). 

Unfortunately, some writers error on the side of making the villains white and straight, and the heroes either people of color or queer or whatever. That's excessive and uncalled for, I agree, but that's not the only thing that's going on. And one doesn't need to be so sensitive about it. It's an exploration. 

Anyway, I celebrate as much diversity as can be driven onto the page or the screen, even if it means redefining historical comic characters, which is being done constantly anyway. 

I will agree that storytelling has declined precipitously at the same time, and that's my gripe. There does not need to be any connection between SJW portrayals and bad storytelling. But both are happening together, so I understand why you may think they are related. As I see it, they are simply hiring bad writers. For my money, keep the SJW focus and hire good writers and great artists and explore all the myriad ways in great stories. I'd be happy. 

Shadar


I think this is all spot on.   Especially that last paragraph.

And yes, making the villain a white guy is so trope now. OTH, so is making him an Arab Terrorist in a movie, or always casting a brit to be the bad guy.  It does seem to be that people are a _bit_ oversensitive to this issue.

OTH if the writing is good people don't care.

And I do enjoy seeing new fresh characters or new takes on old ones. I have 20k comics. I have plenty of comics about white guys in costume. I like buying new ones of those, but some fresh stories and perspectives is great. (I also have a lot of comics about super-strong women for some reason, it's almost like I'm doing it on purpose.)

I bought April Daniels Book Dreadnought precisely because she was trans writing about a trans hero transformation.  I figured I'd see and experience a viewpoint that was different that mine, and her writing sample seemed like it was worth a try.  Plus she'd commissioned and posted some cool art on DA so I figured I owed her the cost of the book to check it out.  I really really liked it, bought the sequel and want the next one.

Also, in another comment, I listed books I happen to like, One of which is the new Jimmy Olson series by Matt Fraction. It's a bit retro with some modern writing mix. It references a lot of the old school Superman's Pal Jimmy Olson stories.  I'm not a huge fan of those but have liked and read many,   I find the entire series much more fun than it should be.  It seemed like something you might want to look at if you haven't. ;-)

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14 Apr 2020 13:36 #67695 by kikass2014
Replied by kikass2014 on topic Pandemic = Kryptonite for comics?

Ok first let's totally agree that Rich Johnson is a piece of shit. I _almost_ did not publish the link, but figured he was quoting something else so hopefully, he didn't cock that up too much.


Well at least we can agree on one thing in this discussion :D 

The rest, we will have to agree to disagree on :)

Peace.

/K

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14 Apr 2020 17:05 #67701 by TwiceOnThursdays
Replied by TwiceOnThursdays on topic Pandemic = Kryptonite for comics?

kikass2014 wrote:

Ok first let's totally agree that Rich Johnson is a piece of shit. I _almost_ did not publish the link, but figured he was quoting something else so hopefully, he didn't cock that up too much.


Well at least we can agree on one thing in this discussion :D 

The rest, we will have to agree to disagree on :)

Peace.

/K


Indeed.  We can easily agree on this part.

And I was going to say, absent you presenting anything new, I ain't got anything else to say.

At this point, it's better to just let Reality show us what's what. It doesn't matter what we theorize will happen ...  Reality doesn't care what we think.
The following user(s) said Thank You: lfan, kikass2014

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