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IMPORTANT TOPIC - AI Gnenerated stories - All members must view

26 Dec 2022 08:04 #76178 by fats
Hi all,

I've had someone ask what the site's view on AI-assisted/generated stories is.  I've asked for the opinions of admins and mods on discord and have their views, but I think that this topic is of such importance that I need the opinions of the wider membership as it will affect how this site goes forward.

What I'm needing from members is this.  Should we allow AI generated/assisted stories on the site, and if so in what way should they be presented?

This thread is for people to present their arguments for/against and for people to give me their views on the issue overall, this is one of these topics where I want to hear from you all, nothing is off the table here the topic is too important.

I have not made up my mind as to how should this go, I do have an opinion on this but I feel that on this my view should not be the only one to take the site as it will affect the site gong forward.

Please reply to this thread.

Fats

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26 Dec 2022 09:34 #76179 by anonxyzus
This past week I tried ChatGPT for the first time, and the resulting story was short, but good. But I wouldn't use it to write my stories, because the stories I write come from me. Using an AI wouldn't scratch the itch I have to create a story.

That said, I think if AI generated stories are allowed here, they must be labeled as such. I don't see any difference between trying to pass off the work of an AI as mine, and plagiarizing a human author.

Something I'm thinking about doing is starting with a premise and seeing how I can make the story change by tweaking that premise. It might be fun to have a competition where we all start with the same premise and details that we are allowed to add to, but not subtract from, and see how the AI (we'd all use the same AI) changes the story.
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26 Dec 2022 12:57 #76180 by Woody
If I were to post anything I'd be upfront saying that its an ai story plus bots like chat GPT um. How do I say this...... write pg at best.

If you're looking a broader policy I'd mirror the picture policy with full disclosure

The stories aren't going to replace the authors, but it's another avenue for idea brainstorming

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26 Dec 2022 13:02 #76181 by shadar
While my curiosity was initially piqued by these AI generated stories, after reading a half dozen of them, I'm over that. 

Yes, they are properly constructed little stories and yes they can feature the kind of genre characters that we celebrate here, but they seem formulaic and saccharin. 

I see ourselves in the tradition of the minstrel, the storyteller, a type of person who has existed since verbal languages were first invented and even more since written languages existed. Tales of gods and monsters that go back uncounted millennium. Telling human stories about beings that are not always completely human, but which speak to the human feelings we have inside. 

Besides, the true joy of the storyteller is in creating the characters and story and bringing it to life. 

No AI can feel that and do that. And while ChatGPT is a big step forward from Siri or Alexa or their ilk, and is intriguing, the resulting stories are not intriguing after reading a few. 

I have no issue having them posted to this forum, but would prefer them to be identified as such so I don't waste my time reading them. I don't care how good they get, I like my stories to come from a living person's imagination and passion, to be a statement of their creativity, and to have some 'genre kink' that is so much fun to read. 

Let the machines write technical papers and advertisements and related things. This website is about humans sharing their passions and imaginations. Or at least, that's how I see it. 

Shadar
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26 Dec 2022 13:48 #76182 by Sarge395
I'd be fine with an AI generated story section instead of intermingling with the regular human generated stories.  The AI stories are going to get better and better just like the art is.  
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26 Dec 2022 16:22 #76183 by Swe
My opinion is that AI-generated content should be seperated from the "human" contributions.
This i find could be don by having a seperated library space, like ther is for "Multi-chapter Stories".
At least i think there must be a obligatory tag associated with this kind of work.

The reason being; there is a disspute if AI generated is creative or "stealing" works of others and combinding them.
I do not know how I feel about that, but having it clearly labled makes it safer for possible future conflicts.
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26 Dec 2022 16:34 #76184 by Gincognifo
Having seen lookalike AI-art flood Deviantart with no end in sight, I have no desire to see the same happen with stories on this site.

My vote is hell no they should not be allowed.
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26 Dec 2022 16:45 #76185 by ace191
I am with Shadar on this. Of course, we are old guys, so we are going to want to stay with what we know. Let me know when the bots can beat DKC!
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26 Dec 2022 16:50 #76186 by Starfurys483
I'm going to sound stupid when I ask this, but I think I might not be the only general member with this question. What is a AI generated Story? How does it work?  And 'Fats' if you could give a Pro/Con list of it. 
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26 Dec 2022 16:59 #76187 by Monty

I'm going to sound stupid when I ask this, but I think I might not be the only general member with this question. What is a AI generated Story? How does it work?  And 'Fats' if you could give a Pro/Con list of it. 
I agree. Is it some computer generated tale where you type in a few characters with their own certain individual characteristics and let the software produce a story?
If so, I would think it best for A.I. output to have it's own category in the library, so interested members could maybe glance in to see what the finished product actually reads as in a finished format.
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26 Dec 2022 17:14 - 26 Dec 2022 17:14 #76188 by Gincognifo
What's the point in sharing an AI=generated story? To demonstrate that you can use a computer and know at least enough words to generate a prompt?

Just generate the story and read it. There's no need to clog the library up with that crap.

At the very least, they should be isolated to their own area with no possibility of cross-contamination. But honestly, I'd prefer AI-generated stuff to be treated as the toxic sludge it is.
Last edit: 26 Dec 2022 17:14 by Gincognifo.
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26 Dec 2022 17:35 #76189 by Monty
The above message?, fair enough, it won't be the same as proper input from writer's thoughts, ideas and original work.
Maybe run it for a month like a workshop (except of course, it won't be a workshop) and put the results in their own folder away from the real creative input from writers.

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26 Dec 2022 21:52 #76191 by anonxyzus
An AI generated story is a story generated by an Artificial Intelligence program. The AI I've been playing with is ChatGPT from OpenAI. Google it.

With ChatGPT, you ask the AI to write a story and you supply the characteristics. Below I'm going to paste one that illustrates some of the points Shadar made:

Write a story about a young super powered woman whose sole desire is to perform as a clown in the circus, entertaining children.

Once upon a time, in a small town nestled in the rolling hills of the countryside, there lived a young woman named Lily. She was a bright and bubbly person with a big heart and a contagious smile that could light up a room. Despite her many talents and her kind and gentle nature, Lily had always felt drawn to the circus. She loved the vibrant colors, the music, and the laughter that filled the tent whenever the circus came to town.

But there was something about the circus that Lily loved more than anything else: the clowns. She was captivated by their silly antics and the way they could make even the grumpiest of people laugh. As a child, Lily had always dreamed of becoming a clown herself, but she had never had the courage to pursue her dream.

That is, until one day, when something truly magical happened. Lily discovered that she had been blessed with super powers. She could move objects with her mind, run faster than the speed of light, and even fly. It was a miraculous gift, and Lily knew exactly what she wanted to do with it: become the best clown the circus had ever seen.

She practiced and practiced, honing her skills and perfecting her routines until she was ready to audition for the circus. And when the time came, she donned her oversized red nose and rainbow-colored wig and took to the stage, ready to show the world her talents.

The audience was spellbound as Lily performed her tricks, laughing and clapping along as she flew through the air and moved objects with her mind. When the show was over, the circus owner approached Lily with a contract in hand, offering her a spot in the circus as their lead clown.

Lily was overjoyed, and she eagerly signed the contract, ready to embark on the adventure of a lifetime. She spent the next few years traveling the world with the circus, entertaining children and making people laugh with her silly antics and her heart of gold.

And even though she had super powers, Lily knew that it was the joy and happiness that she brought to others that truly made her special. She was living her dream, and she knew that she would always be grateful for the opportunity to bring a smile to the faces of those around her.
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26 Dec 2022 23:21 #76192 by kshoo
My personal take on this is that the AI-generated trend will continue to grow, and the stories generated will get better with time (it is AI after all, it learns).

GIven that the SWM Forum has always been a user-creation content-focused page, this should continue to be the main focus; however that doesn't mean that we can't have a section just for the AI-generated content stuff on the side. It might be interesting to see how it will evolve over time.
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27 Dec 2022 00:21 - 27 Dec 2022 00:23 #76193 by marcoasalazarm2
My vote is allow but label. Same with art. I am okay with seeing an AI drawing and get inspiration from it, bust my rear end writing the tale (especially action scenes, I honestly suck at those) and not get the evil eye over posting the picture alongside the story.
Last edit: 27 Dec 2022 00:23 by marcoasalazarm2.
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27 Dec 2022 00:25 #76194 by shadar

My personal take on this is that the AI-generated trend will continue to grow, and the stories generated will get better with time (it is AI after all, it learns).

GIven that the SWM Forum has always been a user-creation content-focused page, this should continue to be the main focus; however that doesn't mean that we can't have a section just for the AI-generated content stuff on the side. It might be interesting to see how it will evolve over time.
Good point... it will keep getting better and it will be interesting to sample what it can do with our kind of themes over time. 

That said, I suspect I'll always have philosophical hangups about it. I'm a Humanist, and in that regard, I'm very interested in what we humans create and how those things change us. 

But then, AI is created by humans, at least at first. It is already writing some of its own code though. Eventually maybe all of it. It's always weird to think of a world where AI becomes another sentient, creative 'species' along with humans. But that's an entirely different topic, and so far one that fiction envisions as going to very dark ends. Thank James Cameron's Terminator for starting such thoughts. Or Battlestar Galactica. So many shows and movies.

 But maybe it doesn't go that way. Maybe AI learns (among other things) to write wildly creative, entertaining stories. Doubtful, but who knows. 

Just don't want to see it confused with or displacing human-written stories. 

Shadar

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27 Dec 2022 01:49 #76195 by RD
If the mission of the site is to entertain and AI content is sufficiently entertaining, I'd appreciate seeing it.

In a way, it's somewhat like seeing a new author come along. We get a sense of their style and approach and watch their storytelling develop over time. The concern I have is if AI content is low effort (cheap in this way) it could impact the creative/artistic reputation of the site with AI stories outpacing those written by human authors (trading quantity for quality, as I view AI currently).

For someone new to writing stories, AI might be good at giving them a basic story (template) they could embellish from. I'd be interested in this manner of story. I enjoy reading an author's embellishments... details about moods, expressions, or some special dialog. I wouldn't mind seeing a story that was developed in this way.

My suggestion is to allow... label/tag as AI (even if just AI-assisted)... and perhaps meter the number of AI submissions in some way... 1 or 2 per week per user perhaps... possibly only as a policy that can be referenced if someone submits too many.

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27 Dec 2022 02:02 #76196 by SVillainess
I don't think AI stories should be prohibided, but they could be a specific section in the Library. I really don't expect much out AI for writing stories for our genre, some plagiarims perhaps.
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27 Dec 2022 02:03 #76197 by jay_manus
I read the stories on this forum for enjoyment.  I definitely care who writes them, because I appreciate (and am sometimes in awe of) their work and I get to know an author's style and general fit with my interests.  That said, I think I can enjoy a good AI-generated story, but I won't be getting to know the author's style and fit.  I haven't seen a good AI-generated on-topic story yet, but I have no doubt that they will improve over time, and I don't want to miss them because we've made a decision to bar them.  So I think they should be permitted, but clearly labeled as AI-generated, perhaps right in the title, or even in a distinct library. 

Another thing: unless and until the AI's generating these stories begin to have feelings of their own, I think it would be interesting and not off-limits to introduce a crowd-sourced rating scheme.  (Yeah, more work for the site developers...).
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27 Dec 2022 02:30 #76198 by shadar

If the mission of the site is to entertain and AI content is sufficiently entertaining, I'd appreciate seeing it.

In a way, it's somewhat like seeing a new author come along. We get a sense of their style and approach and watch their storytelling develop over time. The concern I have is if AI content is low effort (cheap in this way) it could impact the creative/artistic reputation of the site with AI stories outpacing those written by human authors (trading quantity for quality, as I view AI currently).

For someone new to writing stories, AI might be good at giving them a basic story (template) they could embellish from. I'd be interested in this manner of story. I enjoy reading an author's embellishments... details about moods, expressions, or some special dialog. I wouldn't mind seeing a story that was developed in this way.

My suggestion is to allow... label/tag as AI (even if just AI-assisted)... and perhaps meter the number of AI submissions in some way... 1 or 2 per week per user perhaps... possibly only as a policy that can be referenced if someone submits too many.
This made me think. AI features are working their way into many software tools, and there are all kinds of such tools that are designed to assist fiction writing. For a long time before AI there have been 'plot generators' that throw a lot of ideas on the table to stimulate the author's thinking. I read about one where you select your genre.

Now, with AI development, that plot generation assist might get a lot more interesting and involved. But in the end, the author would look through or adapt some of those ideas for their own. But they'd write every word and create and develop every character.

In my mind, an AI-assisted story would be one where the AI wrote the words, even if those words were further enhanced by the author.  

And a fully AI story would be one where everything after the initial inputs was done by the AI. 

But using the AI to help initially developed the plot would just be an improvement on tools that already exist, and the resulting story should be considered to be authored by a meat head. 

Shadar
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27 Dec 2022 07:20 #76199 by anonxyzus
Alternatively, an AI assisted story could be one where the text of the story was submitted to the AI for proof reading. I tried this with ChatGPT, and it works. Would I use it for that? I don't know, I'm mad at the AI right now for thinking that it could improve on what I wrote :)

In the short piece of text I asked it to proof, it came back looking like something from Cmd. Data on Star Trek The Next Generation: It took out all the contractions. "We'd" became "We had."  There were other changes. "... but the DoD had an expectation ..." became " ... but the Department of Defense (DoD) expected ..." 

Would I use it to proof my stories? Probably not. I already use ProWritingAid and the Micro$oft Word editor, and I ignore of lot of their recommendations :) But I could see where someone more concsientious about putting out a good product would use it for that. How is using an AI for proofing different from using other commercially available tools?
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27 Dec 2022 09:13 - 27 Dec 2022 09:19 #76200 by Monty

An AI generated story is a story generated by an Artificial Intelligence program. The AI I've been playing with is ChatGPT from OpenAI. Google it.

With ChatGPT, you ask the AI to write a story and you supply the characteristics. Below I'm going to paste one that illustrates some of the points Shadar made:

Write a story about a young super powered woman whose sole desire is to perform as a clown in the circus, 


 
I won't quote the whole A.I. generated verse.
The prose became tedious very quickly when realising this was just computer-generated with no real graft from the writer.
I started skimming one-third of the way in to the circus idea and gave up reading before I reached two-thirds of the way through.
If there is no real graft and emotion from the writer involved, there is no real connection to the complete story.
With A.I. it is just an article.
Last edit: 27 Dec 2022 09:19 by Monty.
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27 Dec 2022 15:10 #76201 by Starfurys483
My vote would be to allow it, in its own seperate catagory only. However, submissions to Workshops or contests should be disallowed. Those stories should always be written by a flawed human and not a super computer.

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27 Dec 2022 16:04 #76202 by lfan
I wouldn't hesitate to read an AI-generated story, but in terms of posting them to SWM, I would be inclined to say no.  I'm biased but one of the goals of SWM was to showcase and encourage writers to join in and create content.  AI does the exact opposite in my opinion.  Like Gin said, all it does is showcase the computer's ability to write one.  Besides, I don't wanna be complicit in helping computers get that much closer to SkyNet :P

My $.02
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27 Dec 2022 16:10 #76203 by shadar

I wouldn't hesitate to read an AI-generated story, but in terms of posting them to SWM, I would be inclined to say no.  I'm biased but one of the goals of SWM was to showcase and encourage writers to join in and create content.  AI does the exact opposite in my opinion.  Like Gin said, all it does is showcase the computer's ability to write one.  Besides, I don't wanna be complicit in helping computers get that much closer to SkyNet :P

My $.02
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To your point, ELF, if an AI wrote a story that about Skynet that was sympathetic to the the cybernetic side of the equation, that would be worth a read. But we'd have to classify it as Horror...

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