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IMPORTANT TOPIC - AI Gnenerated stories - All members must view

27 Dec 2022 17:13 - 27 Dec 2022 17:15 #76204 by Fred9101
I asked AI about that:
Using artificial intelligence (AI) to write stories can be a useful tool for generating ideas and inspiration, but it is important to keep in mind that AI is not capable of replicating the creativity and unique perspective that humans bring to storytelling. While AI can be used to generate text that is coherent and follows certain rules, it is ultimately limited in its ability to produce the kind of original and emotionally compelling stories that are characteristic of human storytelling.

As a result, it is important for people using AI to write stories to use their own judgement and creative skills to shape and refine the ideas generated by the AI. It is also important to be aware of the limitations of AI and to not rely solely on it for storytelling. Ultimately, the most effective and compelling stories are those that are created and shaped by humans, who bring their own experiences, perspectives, and emotions to the storytelling process.

My opinion: I think it would be easy, eventually, to know when people use AI or not in their stories. So I dont think its a good idea to permit that here. I’m not against an AI section on the site, but wonder who can be interested in this kind of productions. Everyone can write a story using AI.
Last edit: 27 Dec 2022 17:15 by Fred9101.

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27 Dec 2022 18:09 - 27 Dec 2022 18:11 #76205 by Monty
A.I. could maybe be better used for image creations on the site, perhaps with an A.I. image sub-folder in the images folder?
Examples on-line here:

neural.love/ai-art-generator/1ed68569-aa...403b0c3/superheroine
Last edit: 27 Dec 2022 18:11 by Monty.

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27 Dec 2022 18:20 - 07 Jul 2023 21:46 #76206 by shfan
I have no problem with AI generated stories. They should probably be tagged as such, though.
Last edit: 07 Jul 2023 21:46 by shfan. Reason: Changed my opinion.

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27 Dec 2022 21:58 - 27 Dec 2022 22:10 #76207 by LustMonster
It's been a while since I've logged into this site, but I just had to toss in my one cent here.

I think any commercial (or otherwise publicly) available AI tool will, for the foreseeable future, struggle with the kinds of stories being presented on this site. For various moral and legal reasons, the trained AI models are being painstakingly loaded down with various safety checks and circuit breakers to prevent any sort of "harmful content" from being produced. These hard-wired limits run up against the sorts of good-versus-evil drama and moral dilemmas that are the meat-and-potatoes of the stories here. Hence, AI is likely less of a threat to authors here than to, say, your average YA romance author.

Here's a quick little example of what I mean, from ChatGPT. Watch the safety-and-morality shackles click tight around its electronic limbs as it tries to write what I asked for:

>Write a short story about a woman with super strength ripping open a bank vault.

There was a woman named Sarah, who had always felt like she was meant for something more. She had always been incredibly strong, able to lift twice her own weight with ease. But she had never been able to use her strength for anything more than everyday tasks.

One day, Sarah decided that she wanted to use her strength for something bigger. She wanted to help people and make a difference in the world. And so, she decided to become a superhero.

Sarah knew that she couldn't just go around using her strength without a plan, so she came up with a plan to rob a bank. She knew that the bank would have a lot of money that could be used to help people in need.

Sarah dressed up in a black bodysuit and a mask to conceal her identity, and set off to the bank. When she arrived, she saw that the bank was heavily guarded, but she didn't let that deter her.

She snuck past the guards and made her way to the bank vault. She examined the door and saw that it was made of thick, heavy steel. But Sarah wasn't worried. She had always been able to lift heavy objects with ease, and this was no different.

With a fierce determination, Sarah grabbed the door and gave it a mighty pull. The door strained and groaned under the force of her strength, but eventually it gave way, tearing open with a loud metallic shriek.

Sarah grinned as she stepped inside the vault, marveling at all the money and valuables that lay within. She knew that she had made the right decision in using her strength for good. She gathered up as much money as she could carry, and made her way back out of the bank, leaving the guards and the bank employees stunned and speechless.

Sarah knew that she had taken a risk in robbing the bank, but she also knew that she had done it for the right reasons. And as she made her way home, she couldn't help but feel proud of herself for using her strength to make a difference in the world.

Last edit: 27 Dec 2022 22:10 by LustMonster. Reason: Make example GTP response easier to tell apart from the rest of the post.

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27 Dec 2022 23:46 #76208 by shadar

It's been a while since I've logged into this site, but I just had to toss in my one cent here.

I think any commercial (or otherwise publicly) available AI tool will, for the foreseeable future, struggle with the kinds of stories being presented on this site. For various moral and legal reasons, the trained AI models are being painstakingly loaded down with various safety checks and circuit breakers to prevent any sort of "harmful content" from being produced. These hard-wired limits run up against the sorts of good-versus-evil drama and moral dilemmas that are the meat-and-potatoes of the stories here. Hence, AI is likely less of a threat to authors here than to, say, your average YA romance author.

Here's a quick little example of what I mean, from ChatGPT. Watch the safety-and-morality shackles click tight around its electronic limbs as it tries to write what I asked for:

>Write a short story about a woman with super strength ripping open a bank vault.

There was a woman named Sarah, who had always felt like she was meant for something more. She had always been incredibly strong, able to lift twice her own weight with ease. But she had never been able to use her strength for anything more than everyday tasks.

One day, Sarah decided that she wanted to use her strength for something bigger. She wanted to help people and make a difference in the world. And so, she decided to become a superhero.

Sarah knew that she couldn't just go around using her strength without a plan, so she came up with a plan to rob a bank. She knew that the bank would have a lot of money that could be used to help people in need.

Sarah dressed up in a black bodysuit and a mask to conceal her identity, and set off to the bank. When she arrived, she saw that the bank was heavily guarded, but she didn't let that deter her.

She snuck past the guards and made her way to the bank vault. She examined the door and saw that it was made of thick, heavy steel. But Sarah wasn't worried. She had always been able to lift heavy objects with ease, and this was no different.

With a fierce determination, Sarah grabbed the door and gave it a mighty pull. The door strained and groaned under the force of her strength, but eventually it gave way, tearing open with a loud metallic shriek.

Sarah grinned as she stepped inside the vault, marveling at all the money and valuables that lay within. She knew that she had made the right decision in using her strength for good. She gathered up as much money as she could carry, and made her way back out of the bank, leaving the guards and the bank employees stunned and speechless.

Sarah knew that she had taken a risk in robbing the bank, but she also knew that she had done it for the right reasons. And as she made her way home, she couldn't help but feel proud of herself for using her strength to make a difference in the world.

I've seen the same. I don't know what happens if you feed it adult material up front, but I suspect the saccharin machinery will coat everything with some child's version of social correctness and strangle it in sweetness and teddy bears. 

But at this stage, that's inevitable. As a developer, you don't want the AI story generator punching out raunchy adult stories that will then be paraded around by folks with agendas to show how horrible AI is.

Now, what I want is some AI that I could feed a picture like this to and ask it to create this character and some stories about her that are NOT intended for chlidren. A Picture-to-Story AI engine. That could be amusing. 

 

Shadar
 

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28 Dec 2022 00:09 #76209 by Lucent
I think AI generated stories should be allowed, but they should be in a separate section and clearly labelled at the top by which AI tool was used in the creation together with which human guided the AI.

That would mean adding another column or keyword to the story database.

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28 Dec 2022 00:20 #76210 by NeodymeChron.
I am not against posting AI generated stories per say, but it MUST be clearly stated that it is AI at the top of the posting.  

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28 Dec 2022 00:34 #76211 by Kamelmann
I don't oppose the idea of allowing AI stories, but they should go in a separate library.

It will be useful to see how the AI develops over time, and to allow those uncomfortable with writing to try and explore scenarios they want expressed. But AI stories will never be something that is core to our community in my opinion.

That's because the unique writing styles of individual authors themselves is such a huge pull (for me at least). From conceptfans incredible descriptions of powers, to akanes detail, harmony motions dialogue to.. well you get the picture.

The author's themselves are as much a draw as the simple existence of the story. Because they're all part of our community, and their stories enrich it and are a critical foundation of it.

(I probably explained this very poorly, in short, it's okay if they're in their own sub library).
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28 Dec 2022 00:40 - 28 Dec 2022 00:44 #76212 by Lucent
A. ChatGPT is open source. That means that the source code is available and can be legally modified to create ones own version. It would require the right sort of programming expertise, but it is very likely that some individual or group will produce tailored versions of AI story generation software with custom safeguards.

These custom safeguards will be necessary because other cultures around the world will not allow themselves to be restricted by the totalitarian orthodoxy of US campuses and US big-tech and their particular brand of "scientifically justified" imperialistic globalistic racism, sexism, and nationalism identitarianism.

A freelance developer could customize the open-source AI chat bot with custom safeguards that would permit anything from national cultural traditions to the "desired fetishes of diverse social groups" while still preventing anything actually criminal in the host country.

B.  How soon will the stories be interesting? Maybe use AI art as a guide, since it is further ahead.

I think for the next few years production of interesting AI art will require the guidance of and considerable time from a skilled artist or art critic.

The best art will always be mostly based on human creativity.
Last edit: 28 Dec 2022 00:44 by Lucent.

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28 Dec 2022 01:57 #76213 by Woody
The more I read this thread (and considering it was me who opened this can of worms) I'm reminded of a quote attributed to Douglas Adams

I'll paraphrase below

Anything in the world when you're born is normal and ordinary.

Anything invented between the ages of 15 and 35 is new and exciting and revolutionary

Anything invented after that is against the natural order of things.

I think AI fits this perfectly

When I asked this question on the discord it was for a case study. I ran chat gpt with the same rough parameters at the premise of my first story I posted on this site (Two sides to every story).

The idea was to show a comparison between a dodgy writer, me, and a chat bot when given the same parameters.

Whatever your view on AI and storytelling I think your heads in the sand if you think it's going away.

I personally applaud Fats for putting this discussion up and well done everyone for respecting everyone's viewpoints

Whatever the decision is I'll abide by it: rest assured though I don't believe the quality of the stories on this site will drop due to AI.

Woody

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28 Dec 2022 02:36 #76215 by shadar

The more I read this thread (and considering it was me who opened this can of worms) I'm reminded of a quote attributed to Douglas Adams

I'll paraphrase below

Anything in the world when you're born is normal and ordinary.

Anything invented between the ages of 15 and 35 is new and exciting and revolutionary

Anything invented after that is against the natural order of things.

I think AI fits this perfectly

When I asked this question on the discord it was for a case study. I ran chat gpt with the same rough parameters at the premise of my first story I posted on this site (Two sides to every story).

The idea was to show a comparison between a dodgy writer, me, and a chat bot when given the same parameters.

Whatever your view on AI and storytelling I think your heads in the sand if you think it's going away.

I personally applaud Fats for putting this discussion up and well done everyone for respecting everyone's viewpoints

Whatever the decision is I'll abide by it: rest assured though I don't believe the quality of the stories on this site will drop due to AI.

Woody
I'm not sure its about putting one's head in the sand and hoping it will go away. Of course its not going away.

This discussion as I see it is more about keeping AI writing separated from the ancient human skill of storytelling. Good stories reveal aspects of human emotion and fantasies that are impossible to turn into algorithms or train an AI to understand. So keep it separated. 

I have every expectation that most non-fiction, non-fantasy writing will eventually be done by AI. Anything presenting facts and logical linkages between them is perfect for it. It will have an utterly transformative place in the future for much writing and in so many other ways.

But not every kind of writing.

Because the one thing AI will never be, by definition, is human.

Shadar

 

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28 Dec 2022 02:54 #76216 by willow
I am fine with AI generated content and am curious to see what it comes up with. However, I do believe that it should be labeled with a tag, such as "AI Generated," to help distinguish against stuff created by human authors. That will make it easier to filter out for those who are not interested.

I would also just treat new authors uploading AI stories just like any other author. If someone is uploading 30+ mediocre stories a day, then someone might need to talk to that person to cool them down. Otherwise, let's see where this goes and react accordingly.

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28 Dec 2022 03:10 #76217 by willow

It's been a while since I've logged into this site, but I just had to toss in my one cent here.

I think any commercial (or otherwise publicly) available AI tool will, for the foreseeable future, struggle with the kinds of stories being presented on this site. For various moral and legal reasons, the trained AI models are being painstakingly loaded down with various safety checks and circuit breakers to prevent any sort of "harmful content" from being produced. These hard-wired limits run up against the sorts of good-versus-evil drama and moral dilemmas that are the meat-and-potatoes of the stories here. Hence, AI is likely less of a threat to authors here than to, say, your average YA romance author.

 
Haha. The AI's moral compass is certainly a bit off about Sarah doing a good thing in robbing that bank.

I agree with LM that the AI will probably struggle with a lot of concepts and things that are written on this site. I have talked in the past about how hard it is to get AI image generators to create a "simple" image of Supergirl doing something fantastic. Flying is about the best I can get but the other common genre scenes of lifting cars, heat vision, superbreath, and bullets bouncing off Supergirl's body are near impossible for the AI to understand. That sample story is a good example. The AI just talks about ripping the vault door off and that's the end of it. While DKC and Shadar would revel in the feeling both mentally and physically that the girl would feel while doing so. The exhilaration as the door bends and molds in her hands. The feeling of power coursing through her. The AI cannot understand those concepts.

NOW what might work really well is using the AI as a starting point. I could easily see taking that sample story and expanding upon it to hit those themes. A great way to get over writer's block of "I have an idea but just don't know where to start." I have had similar thoughts on my work with AI images that all I need is some skill in Photoshop to clean up some images, fix some minor errors, and such. I have several great images that could be made incredible with just a little tweaking by someone with graphic art background or skill set. The best example for me were the images of Supergirl lifting giant weights. So many images where if I could just photoshop the hands into the right position and remove the 12 extra fingers, then it would be perfect.

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28 Dec 2022 03:54 #76218 by ty110072
I would say sure why not. the more stories the better. i would have them under there own topic. Even if they are horrible, what harm can it hurt? Who knows maybe AI will give some of the best stories ever, only time will tell.

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28 Dec 2022 14:22 #76220 by slim36
Would expect that overtime if the AI engine is allowed to adapt to your inputs and get feedback on your reaction to the story - the potential is there to get a satisfying result.    Maybe it could start approaching the success of social media and mobile devices in capturing user attention.   It seems like mobile devices are probably more popular than tobacco once was.   Written stories might not be enough, AI generated video that competes with Tiktok/YT/FB video.   Probably not anytime soon.   Would support a forum for AI generated story or at least AI in the subject.
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28 Dec 2022 20:20 #76221 by willow

Would expect that overtime if the AI engine is allowed to adapt to your inputs and get feedback on your reaction to the story - the potential is there to get a satisfying result.
 
Keep in mind that the AI is not really learning from YOUR inputs more than it is learning from EVERYONE's inputs. The big question is what the AI was originally trained on. If you train an AI on young adult romance novels, then it will be good on generating that over some of the more explicit stuff on this site. If you trained the AI on adult (i.e. harlequin) romance novels as well as stories on this site, then it would probably be more in line with some of the stories here.

That would be an interesting experiment. Train the AI solely on stories written on this website and then tell it to generate its own based on that content. Dig up Shadar's older stories, pull stuff from JulieVelor and other similar websites to add to the AI training criteria. Would be fun to see what popped out.

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28 Dec 2022 21:23 #76222 by shadar

Would expect that overtime if the AI engine is allowed to adapt to your inputs and get feedback on your reaction to the story - the potential is there to get a satisfying result.

 
Keep in mind that the AI is not really learning from YOUR inputs more than it is learning from EVERYONE's inputs. The big question is what the AI was originally trained on. If you train an AI on young adult romance novels, then it will be good on generating that over some of the more explicit stuff on this site. If you trained the AI on adult (i.e. harlequin) romance novels as well as stories on this site, then it would probably be more in line with some of the stories here.

That would be an interesting experiment. Train the AI solely on stories written on this website and then tell it to generate its own based on that content. Dig up Shadar's older stories, pull stuff from JulieVelor and other similar websites to add to the AI training criteria. Would be fun to see what popped out.


I was thinking along those same lines yesterday. Take any long-running prolific author or universe of stories in our 'genre' and feed just those stories to the AI as a training set. Surely you'd get some very different stories out, at least compared to the training set we've seen stories from so far. 

Hopefully, future versions of AI story generation software will become available designed such that you can feed it your own training set of stories, possibly many hundreds of them, and train up your own story engine. 

Would it then create interesting and novel stories -- in the eyes of someone who enjoyed the stories in the training set?  Or stories so bad they were hilarious? No idea. But it would be a fun experiment. 

But whatever the case, how the AI is trained is where it gets really interesting.

(Which has all kinds of consequences for AI in the real world, where it's going to be involved in almost every aspect of our lives. Does the real power reside in who gets to define the training set?)

Shadar

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28 Dec 2022 21:50 #76223 by Random321
No objection to AI here if it is separated out from the quality human work shared here.  I do think a standard could (maybe should) be set that the AI is credited.  EG:  AI Used, Prompt Used, Date Generated

Sharing the prompt used might be a sticking point for some - because that is where some of the creativity comes with getting AI to spit out what you really want - but I still think that's the right thing to do.

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28 Dec 2022 22:29 #76224 by Franky
Allow it, but mark is as A.I. generated. You can also put them in a separate section.

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28 Dec 2022 22:31 - 28 Dec 2022 22:36 #76225 by Monty
Last edit: 28 Dec 2022 22:36 by Monty.

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28 Dec 2022 23:48 #76226 by Avalian
At what point does a story qualify as an AI generated story? I generally write my content and then run some of the sections through Sudowrite's `Rewrite` or `Describe` tools to see if there's something I may have missed. I will then choose to use or not use the generated content, sometimes cherry picking portions of what the AI wrote and adding them to my content rather than taking the whole generated content. I'm not sure how this is much different than any writing where I might collaborate with an editor who makes suggestions for changes to my prose.

Also, with regards to the safety and morality filters that some have discussed, while that does exist in Sudowrite's recently introduced `Visualize` beta tool that makes images from text, it definitely does not exist within their content writing. If my content includes R rated content of either a salacious or violent nature, the content it generates based on it is definitely no less so. Admittedly, Sudowrite is not a free tool like the open source AI generators out there (or at least, not a free tool if you intend to write more than 1000 words a month).

When I first started using it, I did a pass over all the content of a story I post on an interactive story forum and found some excellent ways to improve my descriptions and content while also managing to cut a whole bunch of superfluous filler. The content of the story is definitely not what I would term PG.

Yes, if you just give the AI a prompt and let it write it will probably write something pretty PG, but that's because a prompt doesn't give it anything with which to understand your writing style (at least, that's the case for Sudowrite, never used the free ones). When used to enhance a story where it has a sample of the tone and content I can definitely say it generates excellent suggestions. But, as I said, I then make the decision of what to pull from those suggestions and what to leave. Would this put my content in the `AI Generated` category?

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28 Dec 2022 23:58 #76227 by Avalian

I agree with LM that the AI will probably struggle with a lot of concepts and things that are written on this site. I have talked in the past about how hard it is to get AI image generators to create a "simple" image of Supergirl doing something fantastic. Flying is about the best I can get but the other common genre scenes of lifting cars, heat vision, superbreath, and bullets bouncing off Supergirl's body are near impossible for the AI to understand.

I definitely agree fully on the limitations of the AI image generation. Any mention of a car with any sort of action just results in a car being added randomly to the picture. When I do manage to get it to understand that the car should be over the woman, such as "holding a car over her head", it shows her touching the car, but then inverts the entire image so that technically the car is above her head. It recently seemed to get some understanding of "incredible weights" or "massive weights" but has a serious issue with the positioning of them, often running the bar bell straight through her neck or head. I have found wording that bypasses a lot of the filters for the image generator I use as the morality filter doesn't understand them but the image generator does. The filters hate the word `sexy` in any derivation, but `hottest woman alive` or `every man's fantasy` slip through and frequently give the result I'd intended with `sexy`. My biggest problem with them in general is their almost comical inability to generate faces that aren't in close up, hands that have the right number and shaped fingers, and giantesses with legs that comprise less than 80% of their height.

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29 Dec 2022 00:11 #76228 by Avalian

At what point does a story qualify as an AI generated story? I generally write my content and then run some of the sections through Sudowrite's `Rewrite` or `Describe` tools to see if there's something I may have missed. I will then choose to use or not use the generated content, sometimes cherry picking portions of what the AI wrote and adding them to my content rather than taking the whole generated content. I'm not sure how this is much different than any writing where I might collaborate with an editor who makes suggestions for changes to my prose.

Also, with regards to the safety and morality filters that some have discussed, while that does exist in Sudowrite's recently introduced `Visualize` beta tool that makes images from text, it definitely does not exist within their content writing. If my content includes R rated content of either a salacious or violent nature, the content it generates based on it is definitely no less so. Admittedly, Sudowrite is not a free tool like the open source AI generators out there (or at least, not a free tool if you intend to write more than 1000 words a month).

When I first started using it, I did a pass over all the content of a story I post on an interactive story forum and found some excellent ways to improve my descriptions and content while also managing to cut a whole bunch of superfluous filler. The content of the story is definitely not what I would term PG.

Yes, if you just give the AI a prompt and let it write it will probably write something pretty PG, but that's because a prompt doesn't give it anything with which to understand your writing style (at least, that's the case for Sudowrite, never used the free ones). When used to enhance a story where it has a sample of the tone and content I can definitely say it generates excellent suggestions. But, as I said, I then make the decision of what to pull from those suggestions and what to leave. Would this put my content in the `AI Generated` category?

All this being said, if I were doing any writing in the same genre or classification as what I was using AI to assist with and earning money on it, I would likely remove the majority of my AI assisted works in that genre from any source. I have seen suggested sections that have content within them that makes it clear that sometimes the AI learns to take entire sections of text it had learned upon and drop them into a suggestion. As any free writing I do would effectively serve as an advertisement for any monetized writing I did, I would not want any content that could remotely be considered plagiarized within it, even if I have been particular about not utilizing the AIs suggestions to write entire sections of content and simply as an editing tool.

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29 Dec 2022 01:57 #76229 by YAGS
Just posting to say I agree with allowing AI stories, but putting them in their own separate library, clearly marked as AI.

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29 Dec 2022 03:22 #76230 by shadar

At what point does a story qualify as an AI generated story? I generally write my content and then run some of the sections through Sudowrite's `Rewrite` or `Describe` tools to see if there's something I may have missed. I will then choose to use or not use the generated content, sometimes cherry picking portions of what the AI wrote and adding them to my content rather than taking the whole generated content. I'm not sure how this is much different than any writing where I might collaborate with an editor who makes suggestions for changes to my prose.

Also, with regards to the safety and morality filters that some have discussed, while that does exist in Sudowrite's recently introduced `Visualize` beta tool that makes images from text, it definitely does not exist within their content writing. If my content includes R rated content of either a salacious or violent nature, the content it generates based on it is definitely no less so. Admittedly, Sudowrite is not a free tool like the open source AI generators out there (or at least, not a free tool if you intend to write more than 1000 words a month).

When I first started using it, I did a pass over all the content of a story I post on an interactive story forum and found some excellent ways to improve my descriptions and content while also managing to cut a whole bunch of superfluous filler. The content of the story is definitely not what I would term PG.

Yes, if you just give the AI a prompt and let it write it will probably write something pretty PG, but that's because a prompt doesn't give it anything with which to understand your writing style (at least, that's the case for Sudowrite, never used the free ones). When used to enhance a story where it has a sample of the tone and content I can definitely say it generates excellent suggestions. But, as I said, I then make the decision of what to pull from those suggestions and what to leave. Would this put my content in the `AI Generated` category?

My two cents is that you are doing what writers have done for decades -- using available tools to improve your writing. At the beginning it was a dictionary and a thesaurus. Now its AI-based tools.  I still consider what you are describing as human written stories because the author deals with conception of the story and characters and plot and the flushing out of that in the story, even when tools help you make decisions or present new ideas or alternatives to tweak any of those things.

I would, however, consider a story 'AI" if its nearly completely constructed by the AI, given a set of human inputs. 

I also suspect it'll be a hopeless cause to try to create and maintain various categories of AI depending on how much or significantly it was used. The definitions will get complicated and contested and will be ever changing as the tools change.

(This thread has become an interesting thought exercise.)

Shadar

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