Glass Ceiling in Hollywood?

IMO, there are some heroes that translate well to the big screen and some that do not. I believe (this is my opinion, mind you) that you need some key elements:

1) Good story -- umm, no duh! But its funny how the studios slap crap together. For a prime example of a good and bad story and how it makes or breaks the movie, you have to look no further than the last rendition of Batman (good) and Superman (bad)

2) Recognizable character -- unfortunately, this is where the whole superheroine vehicle starts to unravel. With an exception of Wonder Woman (and MAYBE Supergirl). There isn't really a female character that can carry a lead role that will stir the general populace. Keep in mind, I'm talking about MAJOR motion pictures here, not some nice, small studio small-time production that will produce a nice (aka "not too bad") film rendition (of course those days are over just about with all the major studios now in the running for superheroes).

Case in point, ask someone to name their favorite female superhero. I bet 90% (of non comic-geeks) will say WW or SG. Now ask comic geeks who their favorite MARVEL superheroine is and I bet you get a slew of different answers -- not any one or two rising to the top. I mean, I remember my first reaction to the Elecktra movie: "Really? Elecktra?? Ok, I guess...." To get a $200 million movie you're gonna need a recognizable character/team.... Supes, Batman, Spiderman, X-Men, FF --- longtime staples of comics and some of their most recognized brands. Not a coincidence their movies did so well. WW is the ONLY hope for a similar "blockbuster" movie featuring a heroine. Because of that, its a last ditch hope that no one wants to be the one to mess up.....

3) Translation to screen -- What do Howard the Duck, Swamp Thing, and Hulk (both ones) have in common? They look absolutely ridiculous on the big screen! Monster-ish / non-human characters don't work in suspending disbelief to a movie audience. For the hard-core comic fans, getting the COSTUME right is hard enough. Both when you try to make something look real with CGI or bad animation or costuming, it isn't a substitute to what people expect from the comics. An exception I guess is Iron Man who I thought personally would flop ala Hulk as I didn't think they could make it work (I was wrong obviously). Female translation via costumes is even harder than men in the way females are drawn with their gravity defying bodies and costumes which are infeasible in an actual action sequence filming. And when they change the costume drastically, you get Halle Berry in Catwoman. Need I say more?

4) Rogues Gallery -- Quick, name one of Supergirl's nemesis! At least WW has Cheetah who might be recognizable (and don't say Dr. Psycho and Silver Swan are options, although would LOVE to see Scarlett Johanson as Silver Swan). Batman/Superman/Spiderman's villians are almost as popular as they are which helps lend itself well to #1.

I think a good WW movie (and even SGirl) is a viable option if they do it right but after those two, there isn't much in characters out there. An original character like Hancock or G-Girl would be a viable alternative but in both those instances, the story fell apart woefully (IMO) near the end, almost making the movie "stupid".

If I were doing a WW film, I'd do a period piece in WW II with her coming to America. I think Nazis are the best villians you could have,

In terms of Supergirl, something along the lines of the combining the origins of the first Supergirl movie with the action of the first Superman movie and a villian (please no Witch who builds an impenetrable fortress near the local Popeye's) that can challenge her without looking stupid.

Please feel free to shoot me down.....

ElF


P.S. And for the record, in the stable of upcoming Marvel films, I think Thor and Ant Man will flop. Captain America, with the right lead, should do well.

Unfortunately there hasn't been a good super heroine movie in recent memory. Even a decent one. The article says it Catwoman, Elektra, Aeon flux, Ultraviolet, they don't actually sell. Best bet to change Hollywoods mind is Wonder Woman since she's an icon and all, but nobody has done her justice (story wise, finding the right actress is the easy part). I'm looking forward to the animated Wonder Woman coming this february to see how its handles and to see if Wonderwoman has found its writer in Gail Simone.

So far Gail hasn't done it for me. Except for last issue, see the reviews...

Actually, I've seen this argument before I think its from the website "When fangirls attack".

Well, since some one wanted discussion, I'll do the argument for argument's sake:

Why they mention Catwoman? She's not a heroine, no powers.

I think you're mingling the fetishistic side of "girls with superpowers" with "heroine". I don't think they need to have powers (though people like myself will probably care less then). Case in point, Batman has no powers yet its considered a "superhero movie". As for not having powers, agreed, although the stupid execs decided to give her "enhanced reflexes and skills" thus again deviating from the true origin. Spulo, I think you and I (and everyone outside of Halle's agent) can agree that movie was a trainwreck.

Anyway, simple answer, Hollywood's afraid. I don't know why exactly, the formula of hot young actress + tight spandex should = $$$$$$$$$. Maybe that's part of the problem - the male characters are treated as the important ones, as proper 'characters' who get proper stories written for them, whereas the girls are just slipped into their catsuits and left to get on with it in the hope that their film'll sell just on the sexiness alone.

I don't think it's as simple as they are scared. I think it's a matter of them wanting to make $$$$$. Spandex + hot young actress will get you pretty far around these parts, but will only get you so far in mainstream USA when people are plopping down $10 a ticket. I think you DO have a point in that the writers who DO get it are probably comic geeks (or familiar with comics). Most of that population is male which is why they probably have a hard time writing a good female character. As much as we can say we can write them, I think we all can agree we don't understand them at all!!!

Wondie's the one heroine who always seems to have a movie 'in development' - and she's also the only one with 'woman' in her name, not 'girl'. She gets the respect that Supergirl doesn't. Supergirl is a cut-price girly version of Superman, at least originally, so even before she hits the screen the name alone would make the audience think she's going to be his sidekick/protege rather than a proper heroine in her own right. So long as they keep those names they're always going to be inferior to the men. Though in some ways I think the Supergirl movie is better without Christoper Reeve (as was originally planned) because if he'd been in it she would have been asking him what to do and it would have been a Superman film with a girl sidekick...

Wondies is one of the few that is NOT a female version of her male counterpart....SuperGIRL, BatGIRL, SHE-hulk, SpiderWOMAN, HawkGIRL, MARY Marvel....the list goes on and on. I think execs think they have the same hero, just with a different gender so why bother! In the case of She-hulk, this cannot be further from the truth if they read the comics....

See also Smallville. Any superpowered woman is either depowered or kicked off the show, no exceptions, because no-one working on it seems to believe that a woman could handle that much power. Kara's the exception, cos she seemed to have (had) an actual personality to go with her powers, and Clark's shown that to stay on the show and keep your powers you have to be as boring as possible.

Unfair comparison I think with Smallville cause it is an episodic show -- almost everyone with powers is depowered or mothballed by the end. If you follow the 'storyline' (which is tough to follow these days) most of the 'empower' shows are clearly Filler shows that kinda serve to tell its own story instead of continuing the season theme. "Wrath" (with Super Lana) was a prime example of that last year. This week's episode (flashback featuring origin of Green Arrow) looks to be the same. I agree that I wish they could keep the good characters (Alicia, Raya, Maxima come to mind around more, but the point of the show is to focus on Clark. The exception in this is Kara who I think could have been vital to the whole Smallville story in helping Clark learn his roots and find his destiny. However, they chose to mishandle her from step 1 and then they intentionally lost her (memory loss to me is a bush league tactic when a writer cannot think of anything else), refound her, and then exiled her. Don;t get me started!!

What we need is Superwoman - The Movie. Take the Superman origin story, but make it a woman. A woman, not a girl. Leave everything else as is (particularly her feelings for Lois, to keep me happy), particularly the idea that she is the only superhero on the whole planet and that this is an amazing thing that's happened. No college girl, or teenage crushes, or anything else that Hollywood would do for a Supergirl movie. Make Superwoman. Have her do everything that Superman can do, show that gender isn't an issue for a good superhero movie. Make it very very good. Make lots of sequels.

While substituting Clark for a superpowered lesbian probably won't happen, I agree with your sentiments in making a female strong character the centerpiece. I wonder what Hancock would have looked like with Charlize as the drunk superheroine. Anyone who reads comics might know of The Pro....to me that is Hancock with a female lead. Ironically, SpikeTV toyed around with a TV version of The Pro in development a few years back but nothing became of it -- big surprise there!!

ElF

I think the "relationship vehicle" is necessary in 95% of studio films. Not because its needed to the story, but because the execs think they need a relationship to pull in female viewers (perhaps that is a sexist comment though). Even the most hardcore action films have this: Batman and Rachel, Supes and Lois, Indy and Marion, Sarah and Reese (Terminator), Sam and whats-her-name (Transformers)..... It's just fluff often that they put in unnecessarily just to have a "love story". Saying you are gonna do an action movie without a relationship is probably something that aint gonna happen*


ELF


* The loophole in these I can see are prison movies (Escape from Alcatraz and No Escape come to mind) or 'war period' pieces (Private Ryan, Hunt for Red October, etc.)

What we need is Superwoman - The Movie. Take the Superman origin story, but make it a woman. A woman, not a girl. Leave everything else as is (particularly her feelings for Lois, to keep me happy), particularly the idea that she is the only superhero on the whole planet and that this is an amazing thing that's happened. No college girl, or teenage crushes, or anything else that Hollywood would do for a Supergirl movie. Make Superwoman. Have her do everything that Superman can do, show that gender isn't an issue for a good superhero movie. Make it very very good. Make lots of sequels.

This isn't what we need. A superman origin translated into a woman version both says a lack of originality and creativity. It also focus on how a superheroine is just female version of his counterpart as said by lfan.

I also disagree with "no college girl or teenage crushes" I think there should be more, but not in the archtype lindsay lohan way. One thing Gail Simone is doing right for Wonderwoman is putting her in a relationship. It lets us explore the character more away from the costume, for the powers and the heroics are just a facet of the character not the whole of her.

OK, for the record this was NOT announced prior to my first posting, however, case in point that studio execs (IMO) have no friggin clue:

splashpage.mtv.com/2008/10/01/robin-to-g...w-with-the-graysons/

Call me crazy, but creating a series about "Young Superman" (Smallville) is one thing but creating a series about "Young Robin" is just lame. I mean while everyone 'knows' the Boy Wonder (hence, recognizable), don't they also make fun of him at every turn? Aside from Aquaman, there isn't a more ridiculed comic character in the geek community that Robin. And is his mythology THAT exciting? I mean the whole parents dying thing creates drama -- for about 1 1/2 episodes. I think the CW is looking desperately for a SV replacement. Aquaman pilot failed so let's try Robin.....

Geez...guys get a friggin clue! While I admit that I'm of a probably small minority that would like a Kara spinoff, I think there are other viable options. WW show revamp woulda been nice, would she not be tied up in 'development hell' on the big screen. A dark day indeed for heroine lovers today, guys....

At least PSW is still doing video content, I guess....

ELF

IMO, there are some heroes that translate well to the big screen and some that do not. I believe (this is my opinion, mind you) that you need some key elements:

1) Good story -- umm, no duh! But its funny how the studios slap crap together. For a prime example of a good and bad story and how it makes or breaks the movie, you have to look no further than the last rendition of Batman (good) and Superman (bad)

2) Recognizable character -- unfortunately, this is where the whole superheroine vehicle starts to unravel. With an exception of Wonder Woman (and MAYBE Supergirl). There isn't really a female character that can carry a lead role that will stir the general populace. Keep in mind, I'm talking about MAJOR motion pictures here, not some nice, small studio small-time production that will produce a nice (aka "not too bad") film rendition (of course those days are over just about with all the major studios now in the running for superheroes).

Case in point, ask someone to name their favorite female superhero. I bet 90% (of non comic-geeks) will say WW or SG. Now ask comic geeks who their favorite MARVEL superheroine is and I bet you get a slew of different answers -- not any one or two rising to the top. I mean, I remember my first reaction to the Elecktra movie: "Really? Elecktra?? Ok, I guess...." To get a $200 million movie you're gonna need a recognizable character/team.... Supes, Batman, Spiderman, X-Men, FF --- longtime staples of comics and some of their most recognized brands. Not a coincidence their movies did so well. WW is the ONLY hope for a similar "blockbuster" movie featuring a heroine. Because of that, its a last ditch hope that no one wants to be the one to mess up.....

3) Translation to screen -- What do Howard the Duck, Swamp Thing, and Hulk (both ones) have in common? They look absolutely ridiculous on the big screen! Monster-ish / non-human characters don't work in suspending disbelief to a movie audience. For the hard-core comic fans, getting the COSTUME right is hard enough. Both when you try to make something look real with CGI or bad animation or costuming, it isn't a substitute to what people expect from the comics. An exception I guess is Iron Man who I thought personally would flop ala Hulk as I didn't think they could make it work (I was wrong obviously). Female translation via costumes is even harder than men in the way females are drawn with their gravity defying bodies and costumes which are infeasible in an actual action sequence filming. And when they change the costume drastically, you get Halle Berry in Catwoman. Need I say more?

4) Rogues Gallery -- Quick, name one of Supergirl's nemesis! At least WW has Cheetah who might be recognizable (and don't say Dr. Psycho and Silver Swan are options, although would LOVE to see Scarlett Johanson as Silver Swan). Batman/Superman/Spiderman's villians are almost as popular as they are which helps lend itself well to #1.

I think a good WW movie (and even SGirl) is a viable option if they do it right but after those two, there isn't much in characters out there. An original character like Hancock or G-Girl would be a viable alternative but in both those instances, the story fell apart woefully (IMO) near the end, almost making the movie "stupid".

If I were doing a WW film, I'd do a period piece in WW II with her coming to America. I think Nazis are the best villians you could have,

In terms of Supergirl, something along the lines of the combining the origins of the first Supergirl movie with the action of the first Superman movie and a villian (please no Witch who builds an impenetrable fortress near the local Popeye's) that can challenge her without looking stupid.

Please feel free to shoot me down.....

ElF


P.S. And for the record, in the stable of upcoming Marvel films, I think Thor and Ant Man will flop. Captain America, with the right lead, should do well.

Unfortunately there hasn't been a good super heroine movie in recent memory. Even a decent one. The article says it Catwoman, Elektra, Aeon flux, Ultraviolet, they don't actually sell. Best bet to change Hollywoods mind is Wonder Woman since she's an icon and all, but nobody has done her justice (story wise, finding the right actress is the easy part). I'm looking forward to the animated Wonder Woman coming this february to see how its handles and to see if Wonderwoman has found its writer in Gail Simone.

So far Gail hasn't done it for me. Except for last issue, see the reviews...

Actually, I've seen this argument before I think its from the website "When fangirls attack".