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Wonder Woman Director leaves project

16 Apr 2015 11:07 #41506 by Markiehoe
Replied by Markiehoe on topic Wonder Woman Director leaves project
WOW!
She directs an Oscar winning movie then basically gets no work for over ten years?

A Hollywood outsider just might be what this movie needs.

Either that or she has no voice and will do whatever the suits tell her.

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16 Apr 2015 16:43 #41507 by TwiceOnThursdays
Replied by TwiceOnThursdays on topic Wonder Woman Director leaves project

castor wrote: Jenkins is most known for Monster-and looking at her imdb its pretty much the only thing shes directed since 2003. Huh.

Monster is a movie that i didn't particuarly like-it seemed designed specifically could be nominated and win a best actress award-everything else felt kind of secondary to it-and her performance was about 30% or more makeup. Really it was Christina Ricci as her enabling girlfriend that was the best part of her movie.

But well she can direct actors, and do in circumstance so thats something.


I was confused when I looked at her IMDB profile. Sure I'd heard Monster won some acclaim (I've not seen it). And she did direct two TV pilots that got picked up and made into TV shows. I know that directing a pilot of a TV show is more in depth than just an ordinary show (creates the tone for the series, has a bigger budget, etc). Some shows pilot episodes are more like mini-movies than a TV Show Episode.

Still, her history seems a bit sparse and yet Marvel wanted her for Thor 2 (which seems to have not worked out similar to what just happened with WW). Makes me think there is something I don't understand, as I don't get how she'd be handed Thor, let alone Wonder Woman.

As you said, she can get a performance out of an actor. Not every director can.

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16 Apr 2015 18:40 #41508 by castor
Replied by castor on topic Wonder Woman Director leaves project

Markiehoe wrote: WOW!
She directs an Oscar winning movie then basically gets no work for over ten years?

A Hollywood outsider just might be what this movie needs.

Either that or she has no voice and will do whatever the suits tell her.


I think your partially write on both counts.

Her IMDB with One movie and a couple of Episodes of TV suggests....well hollywood semiinsider. Theres plenty of people even in indie movies who take a lot of meetings try to get agents in place etc to make stuff...thats kind of the perphery of hollywood. From What i understand with Monster is that Charlieze Theron who was a big star at the time more or less wrote a check to make the movie and she did it with her.

However this maybe like Empire Strikes Back and Laurence Kazdan. Lucas knew the space fights the special effects- he could more or less handle those-but well shapping the performances of the actors on set , picking the shots she got an old Hollywood hand for. You can see Kazdans influence all over the movie-but thers not one thing in the movie thats i think which you can say Lucase would really do that differently. And its one of the great movies

or the same token from what i have heard that the Transformers films thats kind of what i have ehard is the relationship between Steven Spielburg and Micheal Bay.


.
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18 Apr 2015 11:13 #41548 by Markiehoe
Replied by Markiehoe on topic Wonder Woman Director leaves project
According to this article WB/ DC says "NO" to an epic Wonder Woman movie.

variety.com/2015/film/news/wonder-woman-...laren-wb-1201473481/

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18 Apr 2015 15:31 #41551 by lfan
Replied by lfan on topic Wonder Woman Director leaves project

Markiehoe wrote: According to this article WB/ DC says "NO" to an epic Wonder Woman movie.

variety.com/2015/film/news/wonder-woman-...laren-wb-1201473481/


Makes sense....why would anyone be stupid enough to make an action-based movie about a superhero...<eye roll>

ElF
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19 Apr 2015 03:36 #41554 by castor
Replied by castor on topic Wonder Woman Director leaves project
Well i think in fairness the words are "Braveheart style Epic".

I think the going word before was the movie involved a lot of politics and presumibly battles on Paradise Island....Which you know i am not sure is all that intresting. The Wonder Woman animated movie ended with what amounted to a giant battle sequence and iam going to say that can be kinda of mehhhh for me at this points. its hard to do battle scenes.

But well supperhero movies actually can be character studies. i would argue most of the marvel movies are kinda of character studies-Iron Man talks a lot more then he fights. When you look at it most of the Nolan Batman Movies don't have all that much action.

I think i have said this before and its worth repeating-A smaller budget Wonder Woman movie may not be the worst thing in te world. You could overspend very heavily on superhero movies, which can bloat them and only increase the kind of micromanagment tendencies of them. If you can do a wonder woman movie under 2 hours your going somewhere.

But my thoughts.

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19 Apr 2015 20:32 #41568 by AJF
Replied by AJF on topic Wonder Woman Director leaves project
The Variety article says that after writer Jason Fuchs turned in his version of the script, 5 other writers were hired to write scripts as well. Will the final script have multiple writers? If so, then the film may end up being of poor quality. Studio micromanagement.
I would be surprised if Suicide Squad is being micromanaged to death as well. And Batman vs Superman.

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19 Apr 2015 23:22 #41572 by TwiceOnThursdays
Replied by TwiceOnThursdays on topic Wonder Woman Director leaves project

AJF wrote: The Variety article says that after writer Jason Fuchs turned in his version of the script, 5 other writers were hired to write scripts as well. Will the final script have multiple writers? If so, then the film may end up being of poor quality. Studio micromanagement.
I would be surprised if Suicide Squad is being micromanaged to death as well. And Batman vs Superman.


I don't think it's unusual for hollywood scripts to have many writers. And sometimes writers aren't credited (or from my understanding, are ALLOWED by the writer's guild to be credited). Just watched Diner for Five with Frank Darabont, John Favereau, Alan Cummings, Hank Azaria, and Harry Shearer. Darabont mentioned finishing up scripts for Saving Private Ryan and Mission Impossible (even living at Tom cruise's house for awhile). He's not listed in the credits for either movie. He mentioned that the Writers Guild is the only one that forbids it's members from getting credit. If you don't structurally change a script, you can't get credit (that is if the flow of the movie doesn't change, all you do is rewrite every scene so the dialog is much better and the plot seems to work well, well you haven "change the movie" so you get no credit.)

So, I don't know if we any info on if this is really a bad sign or not. Doesn't seem like a good sign to me, but this is also sausage making. I'm sure there is a lot of this that goes on in Hollywood that we don't hear/know about. I still bet more on finding a director who knows the material and can bring it to life.

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20 Apr 2015 04:55 #41574 by castor
Replied by castor on topic Wonder Woman Director leaves project
The process for a blockbuster sounds more or less right.

The Writers Guild really is dedicated to...well almost the myth of the one writer on hollywood movies. in reality the studios sometimes bring as many as twenty writers on films(though often less), and its pretty common for producers directors and actors to take a pass at the script to as well as give notes etc. This has been going on studio films since the beggining. Offically as many as 6 can get credits-though often far less go for it, as the studios don't want to clutter the titles. This has gone away a touch in recent years- though for awhile the trend was improv on movies which meant there was less overall need to change a script people would rewrite on set.

Though frequently enouh it sometimes happen that scripts drafts aren't even read for legal reason. I have known people who make really good money doing this

though i would comment-similar stuff happens all the time on TV. Its rare for a tv script not to pass through at least 4 hands before it makes it ot the screen. This happens faster then Movies but it happens.

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20 Apr 2015 15:53 #41582 by five_red
Replied by five_red on topic Wonder Woman Director leaves project
In movies it has historically been the practice that specialist scriptwriters would be brought in to strengthen specific parts of a movie script. Each studio has a list of go-to writers to work on romance or comedy scene dialogue, for example.

R5

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20 Apr 2015 16:50 #41584 by jdrock24
Replied by jdrock24 on topic Wonder Woman Director leaves project
Has anyone else noticed that any DCCU news seems to bring out a rash of negative posters? Not just here but elsewhere?

What is the mentality of these people? Are they Marvel fanatics who are trying to destroy the competition? Are they comic fans concerned that "their" characters are going to be misrepresented on the big screen? I mean, what is it? What is the point of coming onto forums like this and making post after post about how much DC/WB is possibly screwing up?

It just baffles me...

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20 Apr 2015 18:45 #41586 by ArgentDragon
Replied by ArgentDragon on topic Wonder Woman Director leaves project

jdrock24 wrote: Has anyone else noticed that any DCCU news seems to bring out a rash of negative posters? Not just here but elsewhere?

What is the mentality of these people? Are they Marvel fanatics who are trying to destroy the competition? Are they comic fans concerned that "their" characters are going to be misrepresented on the big screen? I mean, what is it? What is the point of coming onto forums like this and making post after post about how much DC/WB is possibly screwing up?

It just baffles me...


Speaking only for myself, it's not about trying to 'destroy' the competition, but about making my own opinion heard. I imagine that it's the same for most of the other 'negative posters'. I'm not a DC hater, far from it. I continually praise Arrow & Flash because they're quality products. I just don't say 'well, we're lucky to even be having X, so we should just overlook the flaws and be happy'. That's how you get a mediocre product out of what could be a superior product. Think of the Star Wars prequels: there was a good story there but it got lost in horrible execution. Same with 'Dark Knight Rises' and Man of Steel'; both of those films could have been so much better than they were. It's easier to made a mediocre story than a good one, so when people accept mediocrity, the studios are more than happy to give it to them.

The fact is, that if I'm negative about DC movies, it's because WB has earned that negativity with more mediocre or outright horrible films than good ones. Going back to the Richard Donner era, you have Superman, Superman 2, Batman, Batman Returns, Batman Begins, and the Dark Knight as (IMO) really good films. Compare that with the terrible list of Superman 3, Superman 4, Batman Forever, Batman & Robin, The Loosers, Jonah Hex, The Dark Knight Rises, Green Lantern, and Man of Steel, just off the top of my head. If I'm disdainful of WB making a good movie, it's because of their track record; WB does put out the occasional good movie, but when they fail, they fail hard.

I also complain because I know that internet forums and such are read by the studios and publishers and it's a way to start a conversation that might possibly get enough people talking to where something gets changed. Example: when the Supergirl TV series was announced, the CBS flack in charge said there would absolutely be no crossover with Arrow/Flash. Of course, one of the big talking points on all the forums is about how awesome it would be to have Supergirl in the Arrow-verse. Now, you have the producer, Greg Berlanti, hinting at every con he appears at that yes, Kara will be in the same universe.

Will I go see the WW film even though I'm skeptical? Absolutely. Do I have hopes for it? No, because the odds for me are that when I get my hopes up for a DC film, those hopes get crushed.

Again, jut my opinion, YMMV, etc.
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20 Apr 2015 19:32 - 20 Apr 2015 19:33 #41588 by jdrock24
Replied by jdrock24 on topic Wonder Woman Director leaves project

ArgentDragon wrote:

jdrock24 wrote: Has anyone else noticed that any DCCU news seems to bring out a rash of negative posters? Not just here but elsewhere?

What is the mentality of these people? Are they Marvel fanatics who are trying to destroy the competition? Are they comic fans concerned that "their" characters are going to be misrepresented on the big screen? I mean, what is it? What is the point of coming onto forums like this and making post after post about how much DC/WB is possibly screwing up?

It just baffles me...


Speaking only for myself, it's not about trying to 'destroy' the competition, but about making my own opinion heard. I imagine that it's the same for most of the other 'negative posters'. I'm not a DC hater, far from it. I continually praise Arrow & Flash because they're quality products. I just don't say 'well, we're lucky to even be having X, so we should just overlook the flaws and be happy'. That's how you get a mediocre product out of what could be a superior product. Think of the Star Wars prequels: there was a good story there but it got lost in horrible execution. Same with 'Dark Knight Rises' and Man of Steel'; both of those films could have been so much better than they were. It's easier to made a mediocre story than a good one, so when people accept mediocrity, the studios are more than happy to give it to them.

The fact is, that if I'm negative about DC movies, it's because WB has earned that negativity with more mediocre or outright horrible films than good ones. Going back to the Richard Donner era, you have Superman, Superman 2, Batman, Batman Returns, Batman Begins, and the Dark Knight as (IMO) really good films. Compare that with the terrible list of Superman 3, Superman 4, Batman Forever, Batman & Robin, The Loosers, Jonah Hex, The Dark Knight Rises, Green Lantern, and Man of Steel, just off the top of my head. If I'm disdainful of WB making a good movie, it's because of their track record; WB does put out the occasional good movie, but when they fail, they fail hard.

I also complain because I know that internet forums and such are read by the studios and publishers and it's a way to start a conversation that might possibly get enough people talking to where something gets changed. Example: when the Supergirl TV series was announced, the CBS flack in charge said there would absolutely be no crossover with Arrow/Flash. Of course, one of the big talking points on all the forums is about how awesome it would be to have Supergirl in the Arrow-verse. Now, you have the producer, Greg Berlanti, hinting at every con he appears at that yes, Kara will be in the same universe.

Will I go see the WW film even though I'm skeptical? Absolutely. Do I have hopes for it? No, because the odds for me are that when I get my hopes up for a DC film, those hopes get crushed.

Again, jut my opinion, YMMV, etc.


Thanks for the reply.

I do understand your points about WB's track record. Although we disagree about MOS, the rest of your list would be pretty accurate.However, I don't think your theory that "I'm going to bash everything happening with the DCCU because that will motivate WB to do better in the future" is very valid. I mean, do you really think that the stuff you post makes any kind of difference to WB executives? I seriously doubt it.

I really don't mind about valid criticisms. It is the stupid ones that get under my skin. For example, the "multiple writers/scripts" thing in this very thread. It is a common practice in Hollywood to have multiple writers take a pass on a script. However, when DC/WB does it, it is, all of sudden, "micromanaging". Here's another one: BM v SM is "too packed with heroes" or "You can't introduce a superhero team in the same movie! You have to do origin movies first!" Well, didn't Guardians of the Galaxy just do that? Where was the outrage there? If you are going to apply this standard to DC, why not to Marvel? It is these inconsistencies that bug me, not to mention the seemingly relentless nature of the whiners.

I believe, at the end of the day, most comic fans just want good CBM's from both companies. Sure, you are going to have the hard core fans from both companies who will bash the other at every turn just to try to ensure that their side "wins". However, these people need to be drowned out by the "normal" fans who believe that the competition between the two is what will continue to cause both studios to maintain the quality of their respective movies.

By the way, being an old man, I'm not up on the latest internet lingo. What does "YMMV" mean?
Last edit: 20 Apr 2015 19:33 by jdrock24.

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20 Apr 2015 20:20 #41589 by lfan
Replied by lfan on topic Wonder Woman Director leaves project

jdrock24 wrote: Has anyone else noticed that any DCCU news seems to bring out a rash of negative posters? Not just here but elsewhere?

What is the mentality of these people? Are they Marvel fanatics who are trying to destroy the competition? Are they comic fans concerned that "their" characters are going to be misrepresented on the big screen? I mean, what is it? What is the point of coming onto forums like this and making post after post about how much DC/WB is possibly screwing up?

It just baffles me...


I don't understand it either......around most parts of the internet, Marvel can do no wrong with their films & comics. The only thing that fanboys like to do more than to suck Marvel's tits is to bash DC. Granted, WB and Didio have NOT helped DC do any favors over the years, but the knee-jerk reaction is almost laughable. Saying BvsS trailer was one of the worst trailers in history is just a tad bit hyperbolic. I thought it looked fine for a first glimpse.

The badass internet fanboys saying they wont be watching it are full of shit. They'll plop down their money (or their parent's money since they mostly live at home) to go see it and then they'll take to the message board and be tough guy movie critic and bash Superman for being gloomy or excessive collateral damage or Gal Gadot being too skinny. Why? Because it doesn't fit who Superman really is-- well, at least the one of the 20 versions that they personally identify with.

It used to be baffling but now its just stupid. Forums like comicbookmovie.com or even SHH are ridiculous to even read nowadays.

ElF
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20 Apr 2015 20:38 #41590 by ArgentDragon
Replied by ArgentDragon on topic Wonder Woman Director leaves project
'Your Millage May Vary' And I'm not exactly a young'un myself.

I understand your points as well. I don't believe that one single voice makes a difference, but if more join in, then things start to get noticed.

You mention the double standard regarding Marvel/DC and I suppose that there is one. However, I think it's a case of Marvel having earned trust through a record of consistent excellence. I'm reminded of the old Simpsons episode where Lisa lies for the first time and Marge believes her. Bart asks 'How come mom believes you right off the bat?' Lisa replies 'Years of scrupulous honesty'. Bart thinks for a bit and says 'Eh, it's not worth it.' Marvel 'gets away' with more because they've shown that they're up to the task and get more leeway whereas DC is far more uneven.

Another example: Superman Returns. For almost 10 years before that movie came out, Kevin Smith had been telling con crowds about the horrors of working on the planned Superman movie revival. He talked about the meetings with the WB executives that outlined exactly what they wanted to see in the movie. And everything that Smith was joking about turned out to be a plot-point in Superman Returns, aside from the giant spider. Deadbeat dad Superman, a new Luthor land-grab, all of it. There's past history to justify claims of WB micro-managing, unless the director has an insane amount of cache in Hollywood, like Christopher Nolan does. Batman Begins actually flew under the radar because the execs were more concerned about Superman Returns, they just handwaved whatever Nolan wanted to do because a) the budget was so small comparatively, and b) they felt superheroes with powers were now where it was at given the success of X-Men and Spider-Man; vigilantes were passe. When Nolan hit it big with Batman Begins, the execs took notice, but he had enough pull in Hollywood, and enough success, to tell them to sign checks and leave him alone. Same reason why the Arrow-Verse is so good: by the time the execs noticed that they had a hit on their hands, Berlanti had already proven his success and could keep them out of the creative process for the most part.

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20 Apr 2015 20:42 #41591 by AJF
Replied by AJF on topic Wonder Woman Director leaves project
It's been said that WB gave Berlanti little creative control over Green Lantern. Wasn't that film micromanaged to death?

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20 Apr 2015 22:21 #41595 by jdrock24
Replied by jdrock24 on topic Wonder Woman Director leaves project

ArgentDragon wrote: 'Your Millage May Vary' And I'm not exactly a young'un myself.

I understand your points as well. I don't believe that one single voice makes a difference, but if more join in, then things start to get noticed.

You mention the double standard regarding Marvel/DC and I suppose that there is one. However, I think it's a case of Marvel having earned trust through a record of consistent excellence. I'm reminded of the old Simpsons episode where Lisa lies for the first time and Marge believes her. Bart asks 'How come mom believes you right off the bat?' Lisa replies 'Years of scrupulous honesty'. Bart thinks for a bit and says 'Eh, it's not worth it.' Marvel 'gets away' with more because they've shown that they're up to the task and get more leeway whereas DC is far more uneven.

Another example: Superman Returns. For almost 10 years before that movie came out, Kevin Smith had been telling con crowds about the horrors of working on the planned Superman movie revival. He talked about the meetings with the WB executives that outlined exactly what they wanted to see in the movie. And everything that Smith was joking about turned out to be a plot-point in Superman Returns, aside from the giant spider. Deadbeat dad Superman, a new Luthor land-grab, all of it. There's past history to justify claims of WB micro-managing, unless the director has an insane amount of cache in Hollywood, like Christopher Nolan does. Batman Begins actually flew under the radar because the execs were more concerned about Superman Returns, they just handwaved whatever Nolan wanted to do because a) the budget was so small comparatively, and b) they felt superheroes with powers were now where it was at given the success of X-Men and Spider-Man; vigilantes were passe. When Nolan hit it big with Batman Begins, the execs took notice, but he had enough pull in Hollywood, and enough success, to tell them to sign checks and leave him alone. Same reason why the Arrow-Verse is so good: by the time the execs noticed that they had a hit on their hands, Berlanti had already proven his success and could keep them out of the creative process for the most part.


I believe there is truth to WB executives having too much "creative control" in Superman Returns and Green Lantern. However, Marvel, I would assume, has to have even more creative control in order to bind those movies together. When Wright left Ant Man, it was "creative differences" with the studio. Even the almighty Joss Whedon has complained about changes he had to make to both Avenger's movies due to creative control with Marvel. Point is, Marvel never seems to get slammed for this while DC/WB does. Why?

I think another reason is that the DC characters have a longer history than Marvel's and some people have developed their perfect version of the character in their head and when something deviates from that, even a little, they freak out. I'm sorry, the SM in MOS wasn't a fully formed superhero yet. He was basically a rookie who now had to fight off an alien invasion after just learning how to fly a few hours before. "No!" the long time fans scream. "That's not Superman! He should be perfect in every way right out of the gate! He doesn't make mistakes! He's Superman!" It's like they can't win...
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20 Apr 2015 23:56 #41599 by Markiehoe
Replied by Markiehoe on topic Wonder Woman Director leaves project
I can sum my own personal experience in one word: FUN

If the trailer does not sell me, I don't pay for it.

Every Marvel movie I have seen in the theater, and I have not seen them all, I left the theater with a smile on my face.
I do not see them all.
I passed on the two Thors and every X Men movie after #3
Those I caught at home on cable and I was glad I did not pay for them.

I can not say that about any DC movie going back to the Val Kilmer Batman movie.
The DOOM and GLOOM the permeates the DC movie universe just gets under my skin.
The latest Superman vs Batman trailer is two minutes of Doom and Gloom.
In comparison the Antman trailer had me rolling.

Guess which movie I'm paying for and which one I can wait for?

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21 Apr 2015 04:01 #41603 by TwiceOnThursdays
Replied by TwiceOnThursdays on topic Wonder Woman Director leaves project

lfan wrote:

jdrock24 wrote: Has anyone else noticed that any DCCU news seems to bring out a rash of negative posters? Not just here but elsewhere?

What is the mentality of these people? Are they Marvel fanatics who are trying to destroy the competition? Are they comic fans concerned that "their" characters are going to be misrepresented on the big screen? I mean, what is it? What is the point of coming onto forums like this and making post after post about how much DC/WB is possibly screwing up?

It just baffles me...


I don't understand it either......around most parts of the internet, Marvel can do no wrong with their films & comics. The only thing that fanboys like to do more than to suck Marvel's tits is to bash DC. Granted, WB and Didio have NOT helped DC do any favors over the years, but the knee-jerk reaction is almost laughable. Saying BvsS trailer was one of the worst trailers in history is just a tad bit hyperbolic. I thought it looked fine for a first glimpse.

The badass internet fanboys saying they wont be watching it are full of shit. They'll plop down their money (or their parent's money since they mostly live at home) to go see it and then they'll take to the message board and be tough guy movie critic and bash Superman for being gloomy or excessive collateral damage or Gal Gadot being too skinny. Why? Because it doesn't fit who Superman really is-- well, at least the one of the 20 versions that they personally identify with.

It used to be baffling but now its just stupid. Forums like comicbookmovie.com or even SHH are ridiculous to even read nowadays.

ElF


Really? Aren't we better than the "Since they mostly live at home", etc? I expect better from discourse here. I know you were using tone to convey what it's like out there, and the discourse here is much much better.

I'm going to have to say there is a bit of mis-remembering going on with the Marvel side. if you go back pre-release of GoG, you will find more than a little of "WHY are they making a movie about a bunch of unknowns?" that hit on the level of some bashing (well until the first trailer). That is still ongoing up for Ant-Man (I heard a friend making fun of them for making a movie of Ant-man just the other day), and there was the giant flack over loosing Edgar Wright that's still talked about (and I remember talking about it here as well as how horrible the first trailer for it was). And before the release of Thor there were people questioning if Thor was going to the be the right movie and if it would fail (Iron Man and Thor are in no way on the same level as Batman/Wonder Woman/Superman/Spider-Man/X-Men, I think people who have ever read comics semi-regularly forget that). Then again for Guardians. And now again for Ant-Man. Each time it was is THIS the marvel movie that will fail? We've mostly forgotten about ti now because a) have you SEEN Chris Hemsworth in his Thor garb and when he speaks in that Thor-voice? and b) Did you see GoG? That brings a lot of good will. The movies consistently are fun, so people give Marvel a bit of a break, and Marvel also does a pretty good job of playing to the fans w/o alienating everyone else. For some reason they get a pass for messing with timelines, character history etc in movies, where DC gets dumped on. (However, I will dump on MoS often, it's such a well made movie that just misses the point.) as Marikehoe says I think a bit of this is we're more forgiving of Fun that Gloom and Doom (though there is place for both in literature). OTH, It's also what's mostly wrong with DC now, and I think why Harley Quinn sells so well (it's fun and not gloom, a fact that DC seems to have finally realized.).

Actually, Marvel didn't even want to sign Downey, and only signed him to one picture. That's why he made so much money off IM2,3, Avengers. The script was ad libbed and being written as it was being filmed. It's a fluke the entire thing worked (And Marvel acknowledged that by not having Favreau direct IM2, despite being in the movie! What director of a a movie that was a FAR bigger hit than was expected wasn't asked back?). It's pretty funny if Iron Man (the start of the current Marvel Revolution) is used as any kind of guidepost, as it was the opposite of something carefully planned. The rest of the arc, maybe, and it did let Marvel know that if they did "Something like that" they'd make a lot of money. A LOT of money. Marvel had the wisdom to (for once) listen.

It also doesn't hurt that they have a charismatic bunch of people in Downey/Hemsworth/Johanson/Evans/Pratt. Sure there have been some nice press from Bale (_after_ the last Batman movie), but it pales next to the PR that is Downey, and that's nothing compared to the Evans/Pratt PR wonder-kind of their Superbowl bet. Just saying that Marvel does a pretty good job of playing the game, as well as making the actual movie. Just watching the antics of the crew on the press tour for Avengers 2 is awesome (multiple posts all over reddit). I'm not sure WB really gets that end of things, and DC definitely doesn't. Simply look at their reactions to fans asking about Stephanie Brown/Casandra Cain/Donna Troy. The reaction is "please stop bothering us" mixed with a "how dare you still like characters that we're done with". Hell, DC is even bringing back Troy as a bad guy, and I'm wondering if they're going to redeem her, or have WW take her out/keep her irredeemable bad. They did it to Superboy (prime) after all. (Driven by a lawsuit even!) (Marvel comics aren't much better, their reactions to how fans took "One More Day" and other events like that were pretty badly done as well. Actually I think Dido and Quesada both are generally horrible, and need to be moved out of the limelight for someone who won't embarrass the company regularly. But it's not like Marvel doesn't piss off some fans regularly (Spider-woman cover, changing her costume, the new Thor, etc). Though personally I tried to talk to some of the fans against the new Thor (because I suspect that the comic would be pretty good and fun, and IMO, I was right.), but most of them were just mad for incoherent reasons to me other than "I really like Thor and I don't like you to mess with him!" (Points at long history of similar things. Meh. Only got through to a few of them so I stopped) So much so I commissioned art of other woman with Thor's hammer (She-Ra, Harley Quinn), mostly as I thought those things were fun (I've had a soft spot for that topic since What If #10.)

I buy a LOT of DC comics, and I plan to see all their movies, and I pretty much consume all their TV shows (and I hope Constantine is renewed, as I think it's their best show). If I'm skeptical of something (Gal Godot's casting), it's mitigated by the fact that the people who cast her are not idiots, so I know that my initial reaction is pretty much worthless and I treat it that way. What matters is what she puts up on the screen and that is 10x more important than the size of her arms (which has plenty of time to change if that is needed). I've still not seen any movie she's been in, so I can't judge her acting ability, but again, the people involved are all highly skilled, and have done a good job with casting in everything so far, so I seriously doubt that she's a _horrible_ choice, at worst she'll be a good choice. (Said the same thing about Affleck, which people also like to hate.)

But I also wonder why people forget that DC Animated KICKS ASS. Marvel's efforts have historically been (at best) meh, and currently you'd think them to be actually good if you'd not seen Batman the animated Series, Justice League Unlimited, Teen Titans (not Go!), and Young Justice, and even a lot of those amazing shorts. Not to mention the dozen or so movies they put out, the worst of which is significantly better than anything Marvel has done in animation. (Their semi-motion adaptations of comics are ok, but I don't put them in the same class). Even the most recent "big failure" of DC Animation, the Green Lantern, was consistently better than say Ultimate Spider-Man (which I stopped watching), and on par with Avengers and Agents of Smash (if not better). I mean Green Lantern had an actual STORY, consistent characters, and good voice acting. (The voice acting for Hulk,the actors are great, but it sounds like they're in isolated cans.) It could be watched by kids, but didn't feel like a children's program. ALL of Marvel's current animated efforts feel like they are made and written for kids. That's not a bad thing (can you say Powerpuff Girls? Adventure Time? Spongebob?), but if you can manage to do both, as the long list done by DC has indicated is possible....or both of the Avatar series, you're really treating your properties like they are in the comics. Avengers is probably the best of the current Marvel animated faire, and it got better than it started out (better plot, better writing). I'd have to watch some of Green Lantern again, but Marvel might have managed to finally be better than DC's worst. (I refuse to admit that Teen Titans Go! exists.)

(I actually wonder sometimes why they don't just give DC Comics over to the people on the animated side, as I think they get the DC characters better than the people running DC does.)

Fans like to discuss and sometimes bash. It's what they do. More than a few like to really talk shit. But I just drone that out. It's not interesting, and doesn't give me anything to think about. It's boring.

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21 Apr 2015 04:01 - 21 Apr 2015 04:07 #41604 by jdrock24
Replied by jdrock24 on topic Wonder Woman Director leaves project

Markiehoe wrote: I can sum my own personal experience in one word: FUN

If the trailer does not sell me, I don't pay for it.

Every Marvel movie I have seen in the theater, and I have not seen them all, I left the theater with a smile on my face.
I do not see them all.
I passed on the two Thors and every X Men movie after #3
Those I caught at home on cable and I was glad I did not pay for them.

I can not say that about any DC movie going back to the Val Kilmer Batman movie.
The DOOM and GLOOM the permeates the DC movie universe just gets under my skin.
The latest Superman vs Batman trailer is two minutes of Doom and Gloom.
In comparison the Antman trailer had me rolling.

Guess which movie I'm paying for and which one I can wait for?


All I'm going to say is that you will be missing out. I just got back from the free IMAX screening and, I can tell you, BM v SM is going to rock on the big screen.

But hey, it's your choice as to what you want to see. Ant Man, ironically, will probably be the first Marvel movie I'll be skipping in theaters.
Last edit: 21 Apr 2015 04:07 by jdrock24.

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21 Apr 2015 04:41 #41605 by TwiceOnThursdays
Replied by TwiceOnThursdays on topic Wonder Woman Director leaves project

jdrock24 wrote:
I think another reason is that the DC characters have a longer history than Marvel's and some people have developed their perfect version of the character in their head and when something deviates from that, even a little, they freak out. I'm sorry, the SM in MOS wasn't a fully formed superhero yet. He was basically a rookie who now had to fight off an alien invasion after just learning how to fly a few hours before. "No!" the long time fans scream. "That's not Superman! He should be perfect in every way right out of the gate! He doesn't make mistakes! He's Superman!" It's like they can't win...


I'm not sure the "longer history" really matters. I mean you'd have to be > 60 for it to matter (age 10 when most of the marvel comics heroes appeared). When was the last time a 60 yo got pissed off about a comic book movie? And really for most people they know Spider-Man, Batman, Wonder Woman, Superman, Wolverine, and maybe a few others. And honestly Batman and Superman are in a category of their own, and since DC mostly has just remade Batman and Superman up till now, they are dealing with a different level of cultural phenomenon. Part of that is age yes (been around long enough to have sank into the WORLD's Zeitgeist), but age is just an attribute of that, and not the driving factor. (The Simpsons have been around for far shorter than the Fantastic Four but I bet that they have a lot more American and World Wide recognition.)

Hm. I'm critical of Man of Steel and that criticism starts -before- the alien invasion and has little to do with his experience, and it speaks to the heart of the movie. Clark Kent was a coward and an idiot. Tossed me right out of the movie. Might have bought it for some other hero, but you'd want to sell his flaws a bit more than they did Clark's in the movie, and they don't sell his transformation from coward and idiot to wise/brave hero. Movie is well made, well acted, etc, just falls down on the basic plotting. And the people involved (self-admittedly) couldn't make a Superman movie "Work" unless they had him kill someone. Unpack that for a moment, and then wonder why there have been DECADES of stories of Superman, and really only a few hack stories where he kills (like John Bryne, love him but that was one of his worst stories, and I thought so at the time.) The movie just didn't happen to end up that way, it was purposely constructed so they could have Superman kill. Even that isn't that bad of a thing, it's that they then used that as a giant hammer in places to whack things into line so the movie "worked" so they could have that ending.

So, you can think what you like of people that don't like Man of Steel, and even lump me into that ... I'm just ever going to say it was "well written".

Also, I'm going to go out on a limb, and wonder if you couldn't just have made Batman vs Superman, skipping Man of Steel. It'll be a question I ask when I see the movie. I ask this about Captain America I, which I think is a largely useless movie, and they could have just jumped to Winter Soldier (in fact I'm pretty sure many people who saw Winter Solder never saw Captain America). Might have made Windter Solder better as they'd have had to re-think a few things.

(I know plenty of people who watched Avengers but not Captain America, and it all pretty much made sense to them.)

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21 Apr 2015 05:05 #41607 by shadar
Replied by shadar on topic Wonder Woman Director leaves project

TwiceOnThursdays wrote:

jdrock24 wrote:
I think another reason is that the DC characters have a longer history than Marvel's and some people have developed their perfect version of the character in their head and when something deviates from that, even a little, they freak out. I'm sorry, the SM in MOS wasn't a fully formed superhero yet. He was basically a rookie who now had to fight off an alien invasion after just learning how to fly a few hours before. "No!" the long time fans scream. "That's not Superman! He should be perfect in every way right out of the gate! He doesn't make mistakes! He's Superman!" It's like they can't win...


I'm not sure the "longer history" really matters. I mean you'd have to be > 60 for it to matter (age 10 when most of the marvel comics heroes appeared). When was the last time a 60 yo got pissed off about a comic book movie? And really for most people they know Spider-Man, Batman, Wonder Woman, Superman, Wolverine, and maybe a few others. And honestly Batman and Superman are in a category of their own, and since DC mostly has just remade Batman and Superman up till now, they are dealing with a different level of cultural phenomenon. Part of that is age yes (been around long enough to have sank into the WORLD's Zeitgeist), but age is just an attribute of that, and not the driving factor. (The Simpsons have been around for far shorter than the Fantastic Four but I bet that they have a lot more American and World Wide recognition.)

Hm. I'm critical of Man of Steel and that criticism starts -before- the alien invasion and has little to do with his experience, and it speaks to the heart of the movie. Clark Kent was a coward and an idiot. Tossed me right out of the movie. Might have bought it for some other hero, but you'd want to sell his flaws a bit more than they did Clark's in the movie, and they don't sell his transformation from coward and idiot to wise/brave hero. Movie is well made, well acted, etc, just falls down on the basic plotting. And the people involved (self-admittedly) couldn't make a Superman movie "Work" unless they had him kill someone. Unpack that for a moment, and then wonder why there have been DECADES of stories of Superman, and really only a few hack stories where he kills (like John Bryne, love him but that was one of his worst stories, and I thought so at the time.) The movie just didn't happen to end up that way, it was purposely constructed so they could have Superman kill. Even that isn't that bad of a thing, it's that they then used that as a giant hammer in places to whack things into line so the movie "worked" so they could have that ending.

So, you can think what you like of people that don't like Man of Steel, and even lump me into that ... I'm just ever going to say it was "well written".

Also, I'm going to go out on a limb, and wonder if you couldn't just have made Batman vs Superman, skipping Man of Steel. It'll be a question I ask when I see the movie. I ask this about Captain America I, which I think is a largely useless movie, and they could have just jumped to Winter Soldier (in fact I'm pretty sure many people who saw Winter Solder never saw Captain America). Might have made Windter Solder better as they'd have had to re-think a few things.

(I know plenty of people who watched Avengers but not Captain America, and it all pretty much made sense to them.)


Hey, I'm 66 years old and I get pissed off at poorly conceived superhero movies all the damn time. But MOS was not one of those. Sure, it could have been better, but I thought the reimagining of various parts of the mythos was interesting. I think everyone who makes a movie about someone as iconic as Superman is going to have plenty of detractors. I also think seeing how Clark handles the darkness and evil of the world (and the universe) will ultimately shape the heroic man who emerges. He can make almost any type of choice about what to do with his life or those of others, but in the end, we know that he'll stand with the people of Earth.

I always though it unrealistic in the comics of 50+ years ago that he went from a Kansas Boy Scout farm boy to the mighty Superman without making a bunch of mistakes along the way. The tests of his character were too wimpy. Smallville TV tried to improve on that, but they didn't let him go far enough down the wrong paths. I think he needs to lose himself a bit, and have Batman help him understand the limits of power when it comes to changing people's behavior.

While the Kent's taught Clark everything they knew about decency and compassion, Batman will help him understand the darker side of the world. To conquer the evil in men's hearts. The problem is that Batman uses fear as a control mechanism.

Diana in contrast should arrive as an ambassador of peace. She knows little about modern human culture, but she understands that peace is the only way to save mankind. She understands peace in the way that only a warrior and a demi-goddess could. She will further shape Clark/Kal El. Show show that what he does can be beautiful and kind.

I'm betting that at the end of SvsB we'll have Clark climbing onto his pedestal and embracing the idea of a Justice League made up of superheroes. A League that will help those with great powers to focus them on the good of mankind. Which will then get fully explored in the Justice League movie.

Shadar

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21 Apr 2015 05:37 #41608 by TwiceOnThursdays
Replied by TwiceOnThursdays on topic Wonder Woman Director leaves project

shadar wrote:

TwiceOnThursdays wrote:

jdrock24 wrote:
I think another reason is that the DC characters have a longer history than Marvel's and some people have developed their perfect version of the character in their head and when something deviates from that, even a little, they freak out. I'm sorry, the SM in MOS wasn't a fully formed superhero yet. He was basically a rookie who now had to fight off an alien invasion after just learning how to fly a few hours before. "No!" the long time fans scream. "That's not Superman! He should be perfect in every way right out of the gate! He doesn't make mistakes! He's Superman!" It's like they can't win...


I'm not sure the "longer history" really matters. I mean you'd have to be > 60 for it to matter (age 10 when most of the marvel comics heroes appeared). When was the last time a 60 yo got pissed off about a comic book movie? And really for most people they know Spider-Man, Batman, Wonder Woman, Superman, Wolverine, and maybe a few others. And honestly Batman and Superman are in a category of their own, and since DC mostly has just remade Batman and Superman up till now, they are dealing with a different level of cultural phenomenon. Part of that is age yes (been around long enough to have sank into the WORLD's Zeitgeist), but age is just an attribute of that, and not the driving factor. (The Simpsons have been around for far shorter than the Fantastic Four but I bet that they have a lot more American and World Wide recognition.)

Hm. I'm critical of Man of Steel and that criticism starts -before- the alien invasion and has little to do with his experience, and it speaks to the heart of the movie. Clark Kent was a coward and an idiot. Tossed me right out of the movie. Might have bought it for some other hero, but you'd want to sell his flaws a bit more than they did Clark's in the movie, and they don't sell his transformation from coward and idiot to wise/brave hero. Movie is well made, well acted, etc, just falls down on the basic plotting. And the people involved (self-admittedly) couldn't make a Superman movie "Work" unless they had him kill someone. Unpack that for a moment, and then wonder why there have been DECADES of stories of Superman, and really only a few hack stories where he kills (like John Bryne, love him but that was one of his worst stories, and I thought so at the time.) The movie just didn't happen to end up that way, it was purposely constructed so they could have Superman kill. Even that isn't that bad of a thing, it's that they then used that as a giant hammer in places to whack things into line so the movie "worked" so they could have that ending.

So, you can think what you like of people that don't like Man of Steel, and even lump me into that ... I'm just ever going to say it was "well written".

Also, I'm going to go out on a limb, and wonder if you couldn't just have made Batman vs Superman, skipping Man of Steel. It'll be a question I ask when I see the movie. I ask this about Captain America I, which I think is a largely useless movie, and they could have just jumped to Winter Soldier (in fact I'm pretty sure many people who saw Winter Solder never saw Captain America). Might have made Windter Solder better as they'd have had to re-think a few things.

(I know plenty of people who watched Avengers but not Captain America, and it all pretty much made sense to them.)


Hey, I'm 66 years old and I get pissed off at poorly conceived superhero movies all the damn time. But MOS was not one of those. Sure, it could have been better, but I thought the reimagining of various parts of the mythos was interesting. I think everyone who makes a movie about someone as iconic as Superman is going to have plenty of detractors. I also think seeing how Clark handles the darkness and evil of the world (and the universe) will ultimately shape the heroic man who emerges. He can make almost any type of choice about what to do with his life or those of others, but in the end, we know that he'll stand with the people of Earth.

I always though it unrealistic in the comics of 50+ years ago that he went from a Kansas Boy Scout farm boy to the mighty Superman without making a bunch of mistakes along the way. The tests of his character were too wimpy. Smallville TV tried to improve on that, but they didn't let him go far enough down the wrong paths. I think he needs to lose himself a bit, and have Batman help him understand the limits of power when it comes to changing people's behavior.

While the Kent's taught Clark everything they knew about decency and compassion, Batman will help him understand the darker side of the world. To conquer the evil in men's hearts. The problem is that Batman uses fear as a control mechanism.

Diana in contrast should arrive as an ambassador of peace. She knows little about modern human culture, but she understands that peace is the only way to save mankind. She understands peace in the way that only a warrior and a demi-goddess could. She will further shape Clark/Kal El. Show show that what he does can be beautiful and kind.

I'm betting that at the end of SvsB we'll have Clark climbing onto his pedestal and embracing the idea of a Justice League made up of superheroes. A League that will help those with great powers to focus them on the good of mankind. Which will then get fully explored in the Justice League movie.

Shadar


See, I get that others don't find the movie as bad as I do, especially when they focus on other parts of the movie (most of the movie is very well made). My reaction is personal, and I just don't like it. it's mainly him letting his Dad die for reasons I think are stupid. He's scared of what people will do? Feh! (I'd lost my father to leukemia years before MoS, and I can guarantee I'd have not sat there and let him die because of how people might react, I'd have dealt with that later. And I was pretty surprised when I saw the scene and I had a super strong emotional reaction to it. And I get that part of this is my personal reaction, but I also don't think I'm being that unreasonable in my take on it either.) I also get how everyone has to take their swing at the fence and someone isn't going to like it. So I don't go around calling them hacks, idiots, etc. I just (overall) don't like MoS.

But I'll be REALLY happy if BvS plots out like what you say. The part of Birthright (and the Superman movie I liked) is the part that is like the book Gladiator (on of the inspirations for Superman). The small town boy goes out and sees/travels the world, and learns about humanity BEFORE becoming the hero. I get that. That part makes great sense to me.

And really in the original story, he's an ADULT before the world knows about him, he seems 30-ish? Like he's done that, gone and learned about the world. It's only later that we have Superboy (etc). So that part I think is a great re-telling of the story. I have no problem with telling a good story, and picking which version you want to tell. You HAVE to do that. (Sherlock, Lone Ranger, Shadow, Superman, Batman, James Bond... all change with time/who is telling the story. And for the record, Timothy Dalton is one of the best James Bonds, in some of the worst james bond movies...)

(I'm not 66, I"m 47, so I'm not quite up there but I am not a spring chicken any more.)

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21 Apr 2015 16:28 #41616 by jdrock24
Replied by jdrock24 on topic Wonder Woman Director leaves project
Wow, I feel like the young guy on here now since I'm only 40.

A couple of points:

- TwiceonThursdays, I am never going to say that MOS was well written. I have some huge problems with the dialogue that Goyer came up with. The awkward, random cussing was especially egregious ("D***splash" anyone?). However, I had no problem with the overall story, pacing, and execution of ideas in the film. I also think the dialogue problems in MOS will be corrected by the new writer Chris Terrio in BM vs SM.

- I'm glad that BM v SM will continue with the plot lines started in MOS. How would the world react if a super powered individual suddenly showed up on earth? How would you or I individually react? I like movies that make you think, which is where the DCCU seems to be heading. Don't get me wrong, I love the MCU and what they have done. They have their style and DC has theirs. What is so wrong with diversity? No one has to do it exactly like Marvel does it. Other ways can work.

- I understand the "DC is gloomy" and "Marvel is fun!" comparison, but what are these people going to do when Marvel turns "gloomy" (which is where it seems to be heading with "Civil War")? I will bet you right here and now that people who are now making these claims about not liking the "gloominess" of DC will be perfectly fine with it when Marvel does it. Just watch...

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21 Apr 2015 17:18 #41617 by Markiehoe
Replied by Markiehoe on topic Wonder Woman Director leaves project
I was the least excited person on the planet when Marvel announced Civil War for the movie line up.

Didn't like it in the comics, don't like it here.

As of right now I am passing on those movies.
Unless the trailer changes my mind or makes me smile.

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