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WW cosplayers

23 May 2020 18:38 #68120 by slim36
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23 May 2020 19:32 #68121 by shadar
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slim36 wrote: screenrant.com/wonder-woman-lynda-carter-costume-cosplay-best/


Not so fond of that costume. It hasn't aged well. But a group of cosplayers rocking Gal Gadot's WW costume(s), but with more dramatic curves and muscles than Gal's, now that would be pretty neat to see. 

Shadar

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23 May 2020 19:40 - 23 May 2020 19:40 #68122 by shadar
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However, I know that's a sacrilegious comment. The kind that would likely get me into the same predicament as Batman, who has clearly pissed off the lovers of the original Wonder Woman. Ouch!

One must remember that she can hold her own against Superman!!




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23 May 2020 20:04 #68124 by Markiehoe
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I adore Lynda Carter as Wonder Woman and her costume is perfect and holds up well to this day.
Given the choice between the classic Wonder Woman show and anything produced these days guess which I would pick to watch.
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24 May 2020 14:34 #68138 by Random321
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I like both costumes a great deal but also feel like they are different characters.

That said maybe it's the google bot and my phones feed but it sure seems like pages like screenrant and others are getting lazy/clickbaitish more than ever with lame and poorly curated top 10 lists. Seems to be a symptom of current events.

Project Super Woman
SFX Laden Video Shorts and Digital Comics Featuring Super Heroines
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Home of Mindy Marvel, Super Michaela, Domina, E-Girl, Bionica, Power Play, Amp, Superheroines & Super Villains.
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24 May 2020 22:10 #68156 by eromacque
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The new costume is, like Lynda Carter's, of its time.  There's no real four-color simplicity, with all classic costumes needing all kinds of changes to play for modern audiences on the big (or small) screens.  There's obviously something more overtly sexy about the Lynda Carter version because it was the era of Aaron Spelling and so-called "Jiggle TV".  Yes, women could kick ass in the 1970's.  Buuuut they often looked aggressively glamorous while doing so.  Picture Jacklyn Smith executing a judo flip on some hapless thug, or Erin Gray poured into spandex.  Wonder Woman in the 70's was indeed a badass, but she was also a glamorous one, with Diana Prince wearing the latest fashions, driving her elegant convertible, and being an aggressively empowered symbol of new feminist freedom.

Gal Gadot on the other hand is in the seriously-woke, seriously-uncompromising year of 2017, where jiggle is anathema and Wonder Woman will be judged FIRST by how much ass is kicked and SECOND by beauty/love/so forth.  Thus you get odd sartorial choices like her bizarre leather-greaves-laced-to-odd-platform-heeled sandal-kind-of-boot-things that she wears in a desperate attempt to avoid having her simply wear tall boots with heels, which would veer, I guess, into the too-glam category?  I'm not sure.  But writers and costume designers, I'm sure, are acutely aware that missteps can result in gigantic backlash, and not only in a the fan community.  

See you in the funny papers.
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24 May 2020 22:48 #68157 by kikass2014
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There is most certainly a "can't make women sexy" and "male gaze bad" in "modern" Hollywood.

This also applies to all other geek media as well.  Video games and comic books for example.

Compare how modern female superheroes look, compared to, say, the 90s (good grief look at Marvel's "new" New Warriors as an example) . 

Same with video game characters (the Abby memes from The Last of Us Part 2 is a good comparison, for those gamers in here).

This is all from the "woke" infestation of western culture/society.

Look at anime and manga and how they portray their female characters.  Sexy as hell.  Because they don't have this woke culture bs.

To me, this is why the Lynda Carter costume (and Lynda Carter herself) will be the best, and ONLY, Wonder Woman for me.

I won't repeat it, because Eronmacque summed it up perfectly when referring to 70s TV.  Jacklyn Smith and all :)  Good times :)

Hopefully, once this covid thing has passed, Hollywood gets the memo that a) it's mostly men that go to the cinema and watch films; and b) they want to see sexy women on screen.

Peace.

/K 
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25 May 2020 08:42 #68163 by TwiceOnThursdays
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kikass2014 wrote: There is most certainly a "can't make women sexy" and "male gaze bad" in "modern" Hollywood.


Yes, this exists ... but you act like a movie can't get made if it has sexy women who make men excited.

Sure the pendulum is swinging against that these days, but eventually it'll all come around.  Because you know what?  Women like seeing sexy women on screen as well.  And yes I know some women want to act like this isn't true ... but it totally is.  I saw a twitter thread where women just oozed all over a 90's Pepsi commercial filled with sexy glamourous pop stars (Britney, Pink, and Beyonce?  I think?  I'm absolutely unhip and don't know.)  

Hollywood will figure it out and return to a balance.  They pray at the altar of $$$.

kikass2014 wrote: Compare how modern female superheroes look, compared to, say, the 90s (good grief look at Marvel's "new" New Warriors as an example) . 



*sigh* here we go again with New Warriors -- a comic that hasn't shipped and will probably sell like nothing, to no one (though people complained about it so much I am picking up a copy).  As an example, it's pretty worthless of anything.  Also, Firestar is in the costume she was wearing in the 90's and Namorita's is a bit more conservatively cut (lower on the hips), but is still a one-piece swimsuit.  (Go look at New Warriors #1 from 1990 for comparison).

And yes, I know you want to focus on the stupidly named new characters ... but they aren't the only characters in the book and you can't just ignore Firestar and Namorita so your argument looks good.



OTH, look at the New Spider-Woman costume compared to the one she switched from and her original one.  btw this was the top selling comic of March 2020 with over 100k units shipped.  While we can't actually know what the sales of New Warriors is going to be ... I'd be surprised if either of us think it'll be a top selling comic.  You should focus on the top comics for trends, not the trailing ends.   (I do wonder what Spider-Woman #2, #3 sales are going to be.)

Here's a direct comparison of Spider-Woman's new costume  to her original one (ok, her slightly modified 2nd costume as her hair is visible, and i'm sure everyone forgets her natural hair color is brown) by the same artist.  Note I'm not really a fan of the new costume.  But IT IS sexier than her jacket one, and marvel wanted something new (and it's more practical for slinking around in the dark).



Now I'm not linking her last costume, but it upset a lot of people here ... so here's marvel returning her to a new skin-tight uniform in a #1 selling comic push ... and you want to talk about New Warriors.  Also the art in this book definitely shows her as a sexy woman (this is the backup story).



Also, Emma Frost would like a word with you because she's still wearing a wide variety of outfits that show a lot of sexy.  She's also in a top 10 book.  Storm isn't in her 80's swimsuit, but she's still obviously a sexy woman.  Costume ain't the best but .. .X-Men is really weird right now. 

Over to the FF, Sue Storm isn't wearing an outfit with a 4 cut-out over her breasts ... but that is one of the dumbest costumes ever, esp on Sue. She's still sexy in a skin-tight costume that actually fits her character and had a mini-series where she did some sexy spy stuff.  (What!  You mean SJW Mark Waid put her in SEXY OUTFITS!?! )

Black Cat is still vamping it up and was given a series to do it in.  Both MJ and Gwen Stacy have books, and those books very much pay attention to how sexy the women are.  (admittedly top 100-ish and top 50-ish books).  But they got LOT of ad push from Marvel and MJ's book was extended from a Mini-series to a series (though all that is in flux now.)  Hell even Ya Boi Zack admits that about the MJ book, so I'm using one of your own sources against you.

Yes Ghost Spider doesn't focus on how sexy Gwen is, but we don't need that in every single book!

Over at DC some of the top women like Wonder Woman and Harley are wearing sexy costumes.  Sure, WW has that warrior vibe going. I know preference differ but I think it's still hella sexy.  It's not Linda Carter, but it's also not a nun and a lot of the art shows she's hot and appreciates that fact.  And yes I've seen lots of SUPER-HOT modern WW costume cosplay. 

Batgirl ditched her heavy jacket and huge boots for a more traditional skin-tight Batgirl uniform.  Similarly, Scarlet Witch isn't back to her risque costumes of the past, but she's gone from a severe outfit that hid/separated her from the world, to a more revealing one (her costume state mirrored her mental state post No-More-Mutants/Children's Crusade ... her costume becoming more revealing indicating she's beginning to open up and heal, and that was a major theme in her 2016 mini series....I do think if someone would pay attention to her in a book again, her costume would probably rev a bit more sexier, as it fits her character arc. )

So three of the most complained about costume updates: Spider-Woman, Scarlet Witch, and Batgirl are in sexier outfits.  (The other major one, well I've always thought that Captain Marvel's current costume is sexy when drawn by a good artist, showing off her lithe athletic body, even if I prefer her Black one.  But, opinions differ on that .. and I recognize that... OTH objectively the three I mentioned ARE in sexier outfits than before when people were up in arms)

Oh yeah, counter with "She-Hulk is ugly now"  (this too shall pass, this too shall pass.  And before the She-Hulk TV show airs.)

Also, while there are some notable exceptions, the 90's pretty much sucked for comics in general, with long stretches of Justice League, x-Men, FF, and Avengers that sucked.  It's probably the worst decade of comics since I started (late 70s) and it's the decade that killed the non-direct market.  Fortunately the notable exceptions were pretty notable and the end of the decade started to pull things out with things like Busiek's and Perez Avengers (with the kinkiest Scarlet Witch costume ever and it inspired some She-Hulk commissions from me.)

Anyone who frames an argument as "make comics great like they were in the 90's" isn't really going to win me over.  OTH, if you want to be more specific and say 'like these characters from the 90's" giving actual examples, well then, you are actually saying something, and maybe I'd even agree with that.

So sorry, I'm not buying your argument. You are looking at a trend that has stopped and is starting to reverse already for comics, cherry-picking low selling books to prove your point.  My examples OTH, are top tier characters and are showing a trend of "let's bring some sexy back".  And, there is always a place for non-sexified characters.  Ms. Marvel isn't really supposed to be sexy (she's a teen-ager in muslim dress) ...  but there are still covers of her that are sexy.  (And a cute sexy Bishoujo Statue, that G. Willow Wilson, her creator, liked.)

I really can't talk about video games ... but I do see lots of art of super-sexy recent video game characters done by artists i follow.   This makes me skeptical of your argument, making me wonder if you are cherry-picking here too ... but at least even if you are using a not yet released game, it is a major one.

And sorry, i'm going to get pretty blunt here.

You REALLY should use examples of work that has come out, not unreleased things.  Works that people can fully evaluate in context.   But, you self-admittedly do not read modern marvel and DC comics, ... so honestly you really have no idea what you are talking about, and are relying upon up other people to inform you.  That sounds mean .. .but I'm merely re-stating what you've told me in other threads. So I get why you are using non-release examples, they're all the same to you as you don't read any of them and you can't remember comics from last year as you didn't read them and do not care about them.  If I got the wrong impression let me know -- but i've certainly got the impression you don't read anything by Marvel or DC.

There is nothing wrong with that.

What i'm trying to do is make you realize that you have a narrative story in your head, you seek out and find examples that reinforce your narrative, and listen to people that tell the story you are looking for.  But, YOU PERSONALLY DO NOT KNOW as you DO NOT READ THEM.  And, at the very least when presented with someone with some counter-evidence, you might want to stop and consider all that.

But again, I do not believe in "appeal to authority". I DO believe in stating WHY I believe something is true and then listening to the rebuttal.  I'm pretty confident that a shitty unreleased title is a horrible example vs the ones I gave.

Also sorry everyone for this long dump in the middle of the thread.



kikass2014 wrote: Hopefully, once this covid thing has passed, Hollywood gets the memo that a) it's mostly men that go to the cinema and watch films; a and b) they want to see sexy women on screen.

 
I do not think A is true.  

womenandhollywood.com/mpaa-report-2018-w...47-of-ticket-buyers/

Or at least now I'm gonna need more than you claiming it's true, and hopefully you now think that perhaps you should go investigate why you believe what you believe and try to prove it.

Also, some women want to see sexy women on screen, they just don't want it all the time.   Hollywood will figure all that out.  It's great that movies like Hidden Figures can get made, and that's awesome.  OTH, James Bond should have sexy women in it.  The balance will shift back ... I just don't know how long it'll take.   What I do know is that if the focus is on "let's tell great stories" we can't lose.  some stories need the sexy, and should have it.

I think comics are figuring it out now, letting a non-sexified Squirrel Girl exist with Spider-Woman in a tight revealing costume.  Each will sell to their markets and it's good and healthy for Marvel and DC to experiment with how to attract new readers, retain current ones, and try to entice former readers back.

New Warriors ain't for you, and you should ignore it, instead of obsessing about it.   I trust that if it can't find readers, it'll get canceled and Marvel will get nudged a bit more. If it can find readers, well power to them. If enough buy it, it'll keep being made and Marvel will expand marketshare.  It's all good.  Trust the market. (I'm pretty confident the market will say "no", but honestly it doesn't matter to me, I've got plenty of comics to read in the pipeline already)



kikass2014 wrote: Peace.

/K



Indeed.
 

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25 May 2020 10:39 - 25 May 2020 10:39 #68165 by kikass2014
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Not gonna get into this with you again Twice,  you stay on you side of the fence and I will stay on mine :P 

We'll agree to disagree from now :D 

Peace.

/K
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25 May 2020 19:20 #68168 by TwiceOnThursdays
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kikass2014 wrote: Not gonna get into this with you again Twice,  you stay on you side of the fence and I will stay on mine :P 

We'll agree to disagree from now :D 

Peace.

/K


I respect your opinion, and I always find it interesting to hear what you have to say.

Please give up on using insignificant examples like New Warriors.  Or at least until it comes back with sales figures that show it’s actually relevant.
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25 May 2020 19:34 #68169 by shadar
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I have great respect for both Twice and K, and I find their arguments interesting but a bit over my head. 

Given I grew up with comics in the 60s through 90s (not so much interest since), I like a style of superhero clothing that leans toward the minimal. 

This is my idea of a near perfect outfit for an invulnerable Velorian type. Vels come from a culture that celebrates overt sexuality and where the women are naturally more empowered than men. Asking a female Vel to put on more clothing would be a serious insult, implying she was ugly or something and that you didn't like the sight of her.

And while I understand the real world cultural forces at work over the decades, my brain got wired the way it is a long time ago. And I make up my own stuff anyway. 

Shadar

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25 May 2020 19:52 #68170 by Shalandor
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Not a bad point to make.In a fictional alien society who is to say that standards of attire have to conform to human ones?
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25 May 2020 20:45 #68174 by shadar
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Shalandor wrote: Not a bad point to make.In a fictional alien society who is to say that standards of attire have to conform to human ones?


That's my take. The humans on Earth can do whatever they want culturally. My focus is on our descendants who have populated the galaxy, even if nobody on Earth "officially" knows about that. Their cultures are different. 

My premise is that a group of Aliens called Seeders have been abducting humans for at least two thousand years and tweaking them before colonizing new planets with them. A few may find their way back here in secret. 

But my Earth is this aboriginal reservoir of natural human genetic potential that's deliberately isolated from the rest of the Galaxy. Basically, we are like a big conservation park where the aliens can observe and withdraw specimens in secret, but never to interact or change natural evolution on Earth directly. If they screw things up out there, they can just come back and get more untainted seed stock. 

Beings (aliens) too advanced and powerful for us to understand (so far, anyway). 

As Arthur C Clarke famous said: Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. 

Or the divine, in my view. 

Shadar
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25 May 2020 21:05 #68175 by TwiceOnThursdays
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shadar wrote: I have great respect for both Twice and K, and I find their arguments interesting but a bit over my head. 

Given I grew up with comics in the 60s through 90s (not so much interest since), I like a style of superhero clothing that leans toward the minimal. 

This is my idea of a near perfect outfit for an invulnerable Velorian type. Vels come from a culture that celebrates overt sexuality and where the women are naturally more empowered than men. Asking a female Vel to put on more clothing would be a serious insult, implying she was ugly or something and that you didn't like the sight of her.

And while I understand the real world cultural forces at work over the decades, my brain got wired the way it is a long time ago. And I make up my own stuff anyway. 

Shadar


The legion that shows up in my head first is the Mike Grell Legion where the uniforms are tiny strips of cloth. ;-)

The Legion was far into the future, w/ a different culture, so I’d expect their dress to reflect that.  Mainline Marvel/DC are supposed to be reflections of current society (which is perhaps the most fantastic element that they’d be so close to us culturally when they’ve been dealing with Superhumans and super science), so I expect characters to dress/act in a similar fashion.   But I’ve seen the variety modern humans dress, and I’d expect to see that in the characters too.

To me the most realistic depiction was Perez changing the Wasp’s costume every time she had time enough to change. Janet has the money and the fashion sense she WOULD have a bunch of costumes. 

I tend to appreciate variety, I don’t want all the characters to be the same, dress the same, or act the same.   I love it when someone like Kirkman   makes Invincible which is violent and bloody take on the idea of Kryptonians, while also enjoying DC and Marvel where that’s not gonna happen.  Mark Waid’s Invincible or Busiek’s Astro City are other great takes on the ideas of superheroes.  Character and story drive my interest.  I have the same opinions about costumes, the character should drive what I see, and I like seeing a wide variety of characters.  There is no way current Jessica Jones is going to willingly put a spandex costume on again, nor is Like Cage.  Meanwhile Peter Parker is bouncing around in this skintight costume.

I love that there are comics I don’t like at all and never would consider buying, and comics I don’t prefer. (For example, I never liked Venom.).   It’s great as it means that people with different tastes are being served.  There are those that focus on the small % of comics that they hate, and that just puzzles me.  I focus on what I love.  And I still love comics, as it’s a pleasant diversion. But it’s not a possessive/controlling love ... if comics were ONLY what I thought I wanted them to be that’d be BORING.

My favorite Supergirl is always hot-pants Supergirl w/ ballerina slippers as an invulnerable woman can wear whatever she likes.   She doesn’t need clothes for protection.

I love this strip of a fun light-hearted Supergirl changing costumes:   https://mikemaihack.bigcartel.com/product/batgirl-supergirl-comic-1



(The others are fun too.)

I’ve always admired the thought and care of your Velorian stories — and that you purposely designed the world to give the result that you wanted.  You also fill your stories with great characters and it makes it all work.   I also vastly admire the “I make up my own stuff anyway” approach.

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26 May 2020 02:48 #68176 by YAGS
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TwiceOnThursdays wrote: Also, while there are some notable exceptions, the 90's pretty much sucked for comics in general, with long stretches of Justice League, x-Men, FF, and Avengers that sucked.  It's probably the worst decade of comics since I started (late 70s) and it's the decade that killed the non-direct market.  Fortunately the notable exceptions were pretty notable and the end of the decade started to pull things out with things like Busiek's and Perez Avengers (with the kinkiest Scarlet Witch costume ever and it inspired some She-Hulk commissions from me.)

Anyone who frames an argument as "make comics great like they were in the 90's" isn't really going to win me over.  OTH, if you want to be more specific and say 'like these characters from the 90's" giving actual examples, well then, you are actually saying something, and maybe I'd even agree with that.
 

This part, I take issue with. Maybe it's because of my age, because I only read comics casually as a kid in the 80s, and got into them more seriously as a teen in the early 90s, then gave up on them in the early 2000's, but most of my favorite comics are from the 90s. Yes, there was some awful stuff, and all the annoying alt-cover junk and over-hyped events (which only seem to have gotten worse since then). But there were some great stories, as well.

You only mentioned the team books, with an emphasis on Marvel. Yes, Marvel was terrible in the 90s. I remember looking up the old Squidy Award results from the early 90s last year when I was reading some of my old comics, and noticed that DC dominated, and Marvel didn't get a single vote in many categories. So pretty much everyone in the early-mid 90s preferred DC to Marvel, other than the die hard Marvel fanboys.

In the early 90s, you had Mark Waid's first run on Flash, which is still one of my favorite runs on a superhero comic, Batman had the Knightfall story, which was very good, and the Bat-books in general were pretty solid, even outside the big storyline. That was when Robin and Nightwing got their own solo series for the first time, not to mention the start of Birds of Prey, which were all pretty good. Not the best comics out there, but certainly solid and worth reading. Even Superman's terrible over-hyped death led to Reign of the Supermen, which was better than expected. Peter David's Supergirl in the 90s was quite good. I know around here, people complain that she's not Kara Zor-El, so she doesn't count, but that didn't stop it from being a good series. I also liked the Legion of SuperHeroes reboot after Zero Hour in 1994. And of course, those were the early/best years of DC's Vertigo brand. Sandman - Nuff said.

Of course, I collected back issues of many earlier comics, too. There are many older series that I liked, but I always felt the art on most pre-90s comics was severely lacking compared to the newer stuff, even when the storytelling was good. I think comics art really matured in the 90s, but then Marvel especially put too much focus on the art and neglected good storytelling, until they figured out that this was a bad idea and corrected course later.

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26 May 2020 07:08 #68178 by TwiceOnThursdays
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YAGS wrote:

TwiceOnThursdays wrote: Also, while there are some notable exceptions, the 90's pretty much sucked for comics in general, with long stretches of Justice League, x-Men, FF, and Avengers that sucked.  It's probably the worst decade of comics since I started (late 70s) and it's the decade that killed the non-direct market.  Fortunately the notable exceptions were pretty notable and the end of the decade started to pull things out with things like Busiek's and Perez Avengers (with the kinkiest Scarlet Witch costume ever and it inspired some She-Hulk commissions from me.)

Anyone who frames an argument as "make comics great like they were in the 90's" isn't really going to win me over.  OTH, if you want to be more specific and say 'like these characters from the 90's" giving actual examples, well then, you are actually saying something, and maybe I'd even agree with that.
 

This part, I take issue with. Maybe it's because of my age, because I only read comics casually as a kid in the 80s, and got into them more seriously as a teen in the early 90s, then gave up on them in the early 2000's, but most of my favorite comics are from the 90s. Yes, there was some awful stuff, and all the annoying alt-cover junk and over-hyped events (which only seem to have gotten worse since then). But there were some great stories, as well.

You only mentioned the team books, with an emphasis on Marvel. Yes, Marvel was terrible in the 90s. I remember looking up the old Squidy Award results from the early 90s last year when I was reading some of my old comics, and noticed that DC dominated, and Marvel didn't get a single vote in many categories. So pretty much everyone in the early-mid 90s preferred DC to Marvel, other than the die hard Marvel fanboys. 

In the early 90s, you had Mark Waid's first run on Flash, which is still one of my favorite runs on a superhero comic, Batman had the Knightfall story, which was very good, and the Bat-books in general were pretty solid, even outside the big storyline. That was when Robin and Nightwing got their own solo series for the first time, not to mention the start of Birds of Prey, which were all pretty good. Not the best comics out there, but certainly solid and worth reading. Even Superman's terrible over-hyped death led to Reign of the Supermen, which was better than expected. Peter David's Supergirl in the 90s was quite good. I know around here, people complain that she's not Kara Zor-El, so she doesn't count, but that didn't stop it from being a good series. I also liked the Legion of SuperHeroes reboot after Zero Hour in 1994. And of course, those were the early/best years of DC's Vertigo brand. Sandman - Nuff said.

Of course, I collected back issues of many earlier comics, too. There are many older series that I liked, but I always felt the art on most pre-90s comics was severely lacking compared to the newer stuff, even when the storytelling was good. I think comics art really matured in the 90s, but then Marvel especially put too much focus on the art and neglected good storytelling, until they figured out that this was a bad idea and corrected course later.


I did say there were notable exceptions, and “fortunately those exceptions were pretty notable”.

OTH, my impression of the art is the opposite.  To me.I saw the rise of Rob Liefeld (and his clones) and now I generally try to not hate things. But in the 90’s I HATED his art.  Jim Lee was also bad (at start) and then did the work and got GREAT. McFarlane wasn’t that good at start (and I lumped him in with the Liefeld crowd) but ... he also managed to get his own feel and he excelled at Spider-Man.  (So today of the group the only one I do not like still is Liefeld.)

But there ain’t one of those guys that can hold a candle to George Perez or John Byrne. They both worked in the 90’s but I feel Byrne’s work in the 80’s is better (FF, Man of Steel/Superman, X-Men).  Perez does some great work in the 90’s too, but man the Teen Titans and his First WW!  Crisis!  He’s on FIRE in the 80’s.  Now, is his a bright light that made me pay attention to Marvel again (w/ his run with Busiek on the Avenegers).  FANTASTIC WORK.  Esp since it’s printed on better paper with better techniques so it looks amazing.

So since my impression of the.80’s is heavily influenced by strong work by Byrne and Perez .. who I love, It’s coloring my memory. ;-)

And my hatred of the slock books is coloring my memory too and  blinding me to the great points. Alex Ross starts in the 90’s.  As does Terry Dodson.  Alan Davis dos some great work.   And let’s not forget Adam Hughes.  So.. meh. I guess. I talked myself into admitting you are right... there was a lot of extra crappy art in bad books (some of the worst ever) but ta LOT of REALLY FUCKING AMAZING ART.

Ok, point to you for the art in the 90’s.  I stand corrected.  IF you do what you should do and focus on the best of the art, well the best is much better overall (though Byrnes X-Men and Man of Steel are still gonna hang just like Adams and Grell in their primes).

And you mention some good comics.  I didn’t pay much attention to Batman (id’ given up) but the books you mention are well regarded. I hated Azrael or whatever his name was.

Waiid’s Flash is top notch.   And so is Birds of Prey (which is the “the 90’s picks up at the end” bit, as there are like 18 of them in the 90’s). The vast majority of the run ends up in the 00’s.  But it still counts.  As does David’s Supergirl (esp at the start).

OTH, Death of Superman was crap, and so were a lot of the other Superman comics of the decade.  I did like Grummet’s Superboy run and some of Rein of Supermen.  But we’re picking like a year out of decade of Superman comics (who ran in multiple titles).  DC was stronger and I bought a lot o DC like Power of Shazam, if I look I bet there was a good legion run then (I have a hard time placing them all in time now and several legion runs are crap too).   

Its’ not like there weren’t any good stories i the group books it’s just generally poor. It did make the best stand out better.

There were others too, including some longer fantastic runs:

- Robinson’s Starman
- Sandman (starts in 80’s, but the bulk is in the 90’s)
- Strangers in Paradise
- Kingdom Come
- Byrne’s 2nd run on She-Hulk
- a bunch of things from Vertigo at DC. (Though a lot of morison’s stuff I don’t like it’s still important)
- peter David’s Hulk
(I lost something else important when my iPad tanked my reply, I’ll be upset when I remember what it was)

But the best we have for long term runs here is Strangers in Paradise, Sandman and Starman.

OTH, let’s look at the 80’s:

- Byrne’s FF Run ( a solid 80 issues or so)
- Byrne on Superman and Man of Steel, and I think Ordway was on the alternative title and it was pretty good too.
 - X-men (starts in the Hellfire club, Death of Phoenix, Days of Future pasts, Cockrum’s 3nd run, Smith’s run.  About a 100 issues of fantastic X-men comics)
- Avengers starts REALY strong, pattered out as the decade goes by but it’s a solid 3-4 years and some high points in the rest.
- JLA starts strong eventually weakens.
- Marvel Team up and Marvel Two in ONe have some great runs (Project Pegasus!) and is strong overall
- Frank Miller’s Daredevil
- Batman Year One
- Moore’s Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomoroow and “For the Man who has everything” (sure only two issues but HOLY FUCK)
 - Perez’ Wonder Woman  (A good 4+ years before it starts to flag)
- Sandman (2 years)
- New Mutants
- Crisis on Infinite Earths
- Dark Knight
- Killing Joke
- Watchmen
- beginning of Peter David’s Hulk (though I think the Peak is in the 90’s)
- Cerebus High Society, Church and State and Church and state II (issues 25-100)
- Mike Baron’s Badger (by the 90’s the magic had gone)

Ack, my iPad at my list so I’m going to stop (there was more).

It’s just LONG standing runs of great seminal works, in multiple titles and characters.  

My memory impression is there were a LOT of books I was buying that i had to stop in the 90’s:  Captain America, x-Men, AVengers, FF, Wonder Woman, Superman, Batman (so I didn’t notice when it got good, I’d  given up), Cerberus, Badger,.

And some of the bad books were REALLY. REALLY TERRIBLE.  Like the Death of Superman.  And Vol 2 of the Avengers and FF.  I didn’t like most of image (I did like Gen 13 at least at the start).  (Speaking of which I’m hit or miss with Campbell as an artist.)

So I stopped buying a lot of books.  SOme of the horrible books were so extra bad it made me almost cry.  Fortunately there were things like SiP, Starman and Sandman.  That kept me going to the store to buy books.  And then I’d jump around other titles.  My collection is SUPER SPOTTY in the 90’s.  (My problem in the 80’s are the comics are all well loved an d as a collector I need to buy new copies of them).

And a lot of ills of comics began in the 90’s.  The non direct market failed.  Death Of Superman started a collecting fad that burst and that cause a MASS extinction in comic book stores.  The rising prices drove new readers away.  This is the source of my discoussions with Kickass as I think he underestimates all these basic market problems that started in the 90’s and over-emphases bad books  (“SJW books” in his parlance).  But there were HORRIBLE books too in the 90’s and that’s not the source of the problems and the market will correct for them., The industry is better able to handle them today then then (ordering and tracking is easier now as it can be computerized).  

So part of. Why I pick in the 90’s is the LOWS were SUPER BAD and I dropped a whole bunch. Of books due them stinking.   I do drop books now .. but it’s not major like the 90’s were to me.  So I’m not lying when I say it was the worst decade of comics for me.  But as I also said  there were notable great books there and they are responsible for keeping me buying comics.  And you made me think of some of the great artists who turned in work in the 90’s and that’s a good thing. Thanks.

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