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Why Wonder Woman is a problematic character?

14 May 2011 01:10 - 14 May 2011 01:57 #23128 by Woodclaw
Since apparently no network is interested in our favorite amazon (please somebody out there prove me wrong), I went back to my collection and scouted for reasons to understand why Diana is such a problematic character for so many authors.
I divided the reasons in character and setting problems.

The Character
Considering her general profile Diana seem a pretty solid character, unfortunalty this is the result of a trial-and-error process far longer than the usual character. For this part I think that the main problems are:
  • Poor definition of powers and skills: Every person on the planet has a pretty good idea of what are Superman's powers, WW had passed through several different power sets, none of which really became iconic of the character. She's strong but her strength has dwindled between barely more than human to Superman's equal and so on
  • Questionable design(s): Superheroes aren't really fashion conscious, but the eagle bathing suit is (at least for me) one of the worst examples of costume ever. Unfortunatly it has become iconic of WW making any attempt to change it an automatic failure. Granted some of the alternatives were even worst - the white unitard over all - but I still have issues with having her dressed like a cheerleader at the 4th of July parade
  • Secret identity issues: simply put, does she have one? this is another of those elements that makes Diana hard to handle, sometimes she has a alternate identity, sometimes she's WW 24/7
  • Difficult to relate with: this is abit tricky. Both Superman and Batman have a "human" element that the author can relate with. Superman, depsite all his powers, has a very everyman psychology. He might be an alien, but for what counts he's Clark Kent a normal guy from Smallville that moved to big city. Batman, on the other hand, has a very alien psychology, but he's biologically human, he bleed and feel pain like anyone else. Diana is in many ways more alien than both, she comes from a hidden and reclusive civilization and she grew up in it, she behaves according to a warrior code that people aren't able to understand
  • Woman or Warrior: depending on the penciler WW is represent either as an anorexic supermodel or a muscled warrior. Both version s have their partisans and none is considered the definitve version of the character
  • Wishful thinking: I really hate to point out this one because for me it's one of the character strong points. One of the main features of Diana as a character is the fact that she doesn't work like other heroes. She doesn't simply kick the bad guys and stop, she tries proactivly to make the world a better place. Unfortunantly this touch that always delicate trigger about heroes doing too little or too much

The Setting

  • No iconic landscape: opposite to many other heroes no city (real od fictional) has ever been associated to Diana. Every author has moved her around with impunity, making her jumping from Boston to NY, to Washington DC and so on. As a result there's no location outside Themiscyra that is really linked to the character. Batman's fictional geography has some firm points that the reader use to navigate (Wayne Manor, Arkham Asylum, Gordon's Office etc.). Diana is pretty much floating in the void
  • No Nemesis: aside from having a rogue gallery of very fluctuating quality, none among Diana's enemies has ever reached the status of being her personal nemesis.
  • Mythology failing: Diana's character is deeply rooted with the Greek Myths, but 9 authors out of 10 seem to have problem to handle this aspect of the character, either ignoring it or using it in a horrid parody of the Marvel Comics version of Asgard. My persial congratulations to George Perez for studying some mythology before working on WW post-crisis version
  • Atlantis is boring: like 90% of the "hidden worlds" readers doesn't care much about Themiscyra, which means that the only iconic location is a huge sell killer
  • Variable quality supporting cast: few characters from WW supporting cast have managed to survive even a single author change, except for her expies (Donna Troy, Wonder Girl, Artemis and Queen Hyppolita)

Ok this is pretty much my personal list, let me know what you think.
Last edit: 14 May 2011 01:57 by Woodclaw.

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14 May 2011 01:50 #23131 by eavatar
WW's main problem isn't really related in how the authors tell her stories or how the artists draw her, but it is deeply rooted on the fans and their visions related to Wonder Woman.

The fandom are the real character killers. They don't see Diana as the same character all time, something Batman or Superman fans usually do. Because this split vision the authors and the artists fail to deliver the ultimate Wonder Woman for us.An example, there are some fans which support Wonder Woman comics because she is a gay icon and being a gay icon they expect her act like a star with several hunks doing the court, trying to look "cute and modern" and of course, supporting an openly gay agenda and beating the typical "macho" and wicked villains. At other hand there are the femnists who expect Diana be a feminist icon and they expect her be an example of self sufficient female at the same time she shows to the world she is independent from the males and a major kick ass heroine doing feats which superman or batman never could do. And so on.

So based on the different visions which the fans express the authors doesn't know which vision they must embrace and show us, making Diana a very unconstant and unstable character. Almost radioative. What we must pray to the gods and wait is a better wonder woman comic book thanks to the direction showed by the TV show

Going ahead is the only one way to go to the future.

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14 May 2011 02:36 #23132 by jimbob
I think it's mostly the background. She's a fantasy character displaced into the world of superheroics, and alot of people can't quite get behind that. It's ok in an ensemble piece like Justice League were they can delve into her backstory for one or two one off eps and otherwise just have her kicking the bad guys around while the more standard secret identity type characters get the downtime scenes, but it's not quite enough to carry her all on her own.

It's the same problem that Thor always had with Marvel comics. He was ignored in tv series and film for a long long time because of his weird and complicated backstory and the fact that he doesn't have much of a personal life people can relate too unlike rich playboy with a secret lifestyle Tony Stark/Bruce Wayne, ordinary joe just trying to get by Peter Parker, etc.

It's only after several hero film successes and running out of iconic characters that Marvel finally tried a Thor film. And it was great. And it was just as much a financial success as the other Marvel films. So maybe now characters like Thor and WW and Hercules will get a chance.

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14 May 2011 03:04 - 14 May 2011 03:05 #23133 by lfan
I think Anon's comments are mostly rationalizations to the execs' firm (and wrong) belief that "female action leads do not sell so we won't make them". The notion of her not being consistent in terms of powers, costume, and personality I think isn't relevant. While SM and BM have remained consistent, you could easily point to some Marvel movies (Iron Man, Hulk, Xmen) that was successes and have similar "confusing" backgrounds in the comics. Hulk is red, he's green. he's grey...Xmen lineup changes daily among their 453 different titles..Iron Man's armor changes regularly as does who dons it...Heck, we even had Superman die and be reincarnated....his power levels have also altered over the years.

Costume is ridiculous? In my opinion, most costumes are....still, most people clamoured for the bikini style when they tried to modernize it, despite its impractical nature.

In terms of Rogue's Gallery, I think you're kind dead-on here, though there are ways around that and its overrated, IMO. You could ask 100 people to probably name 5-6 GREAT batman villains off the top of your head and I bet you wouldn't get one person to name Scarecrow AND Ra-Al's Ghul -- the stars of the Batman reboot. Even with the Superman Reboot -- Brainiac, Luthor, Darkseid, Mongul, Bizarro, etc -- they choose to reboot the SAME villain (Zod) they've used before. They're not exactly leveraging their treasure trove of villains. Besides, Cheetah, Giganta, Dr. Psycho...those could be great villains, if introduced.

Bottom line, I think is no exec wants to go out on a limb with a big budget movie starring a female superheroine. Period. They can give all the excuses they want but they don't hold water. Male superheroes fall short sometimes at the box office (Hulk #1, Punisher, Batman 3 and 4, Superman Returns) yet they continually get a second and third chance. Seems sad Wonder Woman gets no strikes and she's out!

ElF
Last edit: 14 May 2011 03:05 by lfan.

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14 May 2011 09:00 #23136 by MisterK
Not to push this point too hard, but I really think Kelly didn't get the character. I actually thought the first iteration of the story (from what we could get of it) sounded more appealing than the second. I mean, sure she sounded wimpy, but better she cry senselessly than kill senselessly. In either case, we had a problem. I mean, geez, was it so hard to understand that Wonder Woman is supposed to be well-adjusted? Not perfect maybe, but well-adjusted.

Look, those of us who know the character know she's more than workable. For instance, moxie doesn't have to mean obnoxious. You know. for a perfect example, go to the source, the original Marston comics. Lynda Carter's portrayal isn't exactly the same thing, but she also did a great job, and also demonstrates what I'm talking about.

I don't know why they can't get her off the ground, but I sadly suspect part of it is simply that there isn't all that much energy for her. There's only so much willingness around Hollywood, only so many producers and/or directors who'll do much of anything for a Wonder Woman project. It turns out that one who did unfortunately ended up getting a bit lost. Well, we shouldn't give up hope.

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14 May 2011 16:49 #23137 by Woodclaw

lfan wrote: I think Anon's comments are mostly rationalizations to the execs' firm (and wrong) belief that "female action leads do not sell so we won't make them". The notion of her not being consistent in terms of powers, costume, and personality I think isn't relevant. While SM and BM have remained consistent, you could easily point to some Marvel movies (Iron Man, Hulk, Xmen) that was successes and have similar "confusing" backgrounds in the comics. Hulk is red, he's green. he's grey...Xmen lineup changes daily among their 453 different titles..Iron Man's armor changes regularly as does who dons it...Heck, we even had Superman die and be reincarnated....his power levels have also altered over the years.


I kind of disagree with this part LFan. Even if some Marvel character has convulted backgrounds there's still a iconic version that has become part of the popular culture. Hulk is supposed to be green, large, dumb and rampaging through whole cities because people don't leave him alone. Iron Man is supposed to constantly upgrade the armor design to keep it on the bleeding cutting edge of technology. And the X-Men, well there are a number of character that are almost instantly recognizable as X-Men (Wolverine, Storm, Cyclops and Phoenix for starters).
My point was that aside from the look, the whole "She's a Amazon" deal and the Bullets & Bracelets routine a casual reader doesn't have a particular clear picture of who WW is.

lfan wrote: Costume is ridiculous? In my opinion, most costumes are....still, most people clamoured for the bikini style when they tried to modernize it, despite its impractical nature.


As I said superheroes aren't really fashion conscious, but some costumes still works. For me a costume to work should be simple (like Superman's which is basibly a blue unitard and a red towel), be mean to a purpose (like Batman's which is an attempt to balance stealth and scary) or be significant for the character origin/background (like Thor's).
Diana's costume isn't that simple (certain versions are quite complex designs), doesn't have a defined purpose and, maybe it's just me, stars and stripes doesn't scream amazon heroine.

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14 May 2011 23:08 #23144 by shadar
I think what bothers some people with WW, myself included, is that she's a magical being, created out of mud by the will of an ancient god.

Superman had a more plausible origin...he was from an alien race which had evolved under different conditions. He isn't human, but he was raised as one and thinks like us. Also, he was an abandoned baby found by a kindly farming couple who raised him with heartland values. He grew up thinking he was the last of his kind.

Whether that's any more plausible, it does connect us to him. We can all relate to his emotions and his upbringing and see every day, and in every one of his actions, the effects of that upbringing. Everyone gets it.

WW in contrast, was sent to "man's world" to somehow save us, although that message surely got lost along the
way. That's smacks far too much of godly magic and miracles for me.

Supergirl is somehow lost in between. iMHO, the only way she could work is to emphasize her having been raised to the age of 15 in Kryptonian society and being very disconnected from human societies and customs at first. Her transformation is to learn how to become human, and that could be a compelling story. Also a very human story.

I still think she has promise on the screen, but only if they develop her very Smallvillish, showing her growth and changes to become a woman of Earth, not a lost girl from Krypton. The Smallville series left that option open, and hopefully someone will realize the potential and exploit it. Although to be honest, despite how much I enjoy seeing Laura Vandervoort on the screen, they should start with a blonde actress who really is 15 and develop the role, including her parallel secret identity as the recently adopted Linda Danvers. Showing her adoptive parents family as they discover just how special their new daughter is would be fun. I'd toss in a sibling or two to complete the picture.

How would you like to be in your mid-teens and suspect that your adopted sister is really the mysterious and elusive Supergirl? The whole process going from suspicion to discovery to adjusting to that reality would be a story line of it's own, embedded as it would be in a larger story.

Shadar

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14 May 2011 23:50 #23146 by inactive
A comment that a friend made when we were discussing this on facebook:

I think the problem is that, for whatever reason, people keep running away from the central concept of "Wonder Woman," which is "a Warrior Princess from a hidden island journeys to 'Man's World' to oppose a great evil that threatens the world." Originally, it was the Nazis, but I think if they built from that core concept, instead of getting caught up in metatextual nonsense, they might actually be able to pull it off.


- GeekSeven

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15 May 2011 10:04 #23153 by Random321
Replied by Random321 on topic Re: Why Wonder Woman is a problematic character?
I've had a harder time following WW in the comics as of the last ten years - but I loved her DVD animation movie - and I liked her old school TV show. I think WW has some great stories to tell in today’s world: 1) dealing with corporate greed with a woman’s perspective from foreign companies product dumping and abusing labor to United States institutions being lowlifes. 2) International terrorism 4) Drug Cartels. 5) Gangs 6) You could have some fun with Neo-Nazi’s. The problem is the anti greed angle would be done too preachy in an anti-capitalism kind of way and the anti-terrorism, drug, or gang angle would labeled as prejudice against certain segments because we are WAY to politically correct.

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15 May 2011 23:04 #23159 by Dr. Muttonchops
Replied by Dr. Muttonchops on topic Re: Why Wonder Woman is a problematic character?
Completely agree with you, Random. ;)

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17 May 2011 19:05 #23181 by Lastleaf
Completely agree with Anon. I've been active to a number of Wonder Woman forums and I've said the same things.

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