- Posts: 3604
- Thank you received: 1991
Superheroes and doing good
28 Apr 2014 18:56 #36308
by Woodclaw
Superheroes and doing good was created by Woodclaw
This article
is one of the best summaries I've ever read about storytelling in comics. While I'm an advocate of certain level of grim and realism, this doesn't mean that darker = better. In my head realism in a superhero comic means exploring a character beyond the mask and powers, crafting a world around him that might not be real, but it's close enough to be plausible.
One of the biggest selling points of the "Winter Soldier" is how they handled the inclusion of Falcon. The simple fact of pairing Cap - who basically tossed himself into war head-on and never truly came back - with a PTSD counselor is brilliant, because it's both plausible (the run into similar circles) and create a good basic for some future confrontation between the two.
Batman has a psychological dynamic similar to Cap: Bruce Wayne never left Crime Alley, he died alongside his parents. It's something similar to a case of PTSD, but more extreme and more twisted. What Batman often lacks is a counterpart that point out to him the size of his egomania and missing contact with the world around him. Nolan's trilogy tries to create some links, but utterly fails, since the whole story revolves so much around Batman being Batman that the world around him became insignificant in too many ways. Everyone in Gotham (from the police, to the army, even Alfred most of the time) seem to depend on Batman to act, which nullifies the "realism" part of the story.
Back to the main topic, I think that the reason why good = stupid is that too many people think that being good means being overtly concerned with other people. Putting their need so far above our that you nullify yourself in the process. Destroying yourself for the sake of the world. Well, I have a big question for you all: isn't that exactly what Nolan's grim'n'gritty Batman does ALL THE TIME? (sorry for the caption)
One of the biggest selling points of the "Winter Soldier" is how they handled the inclusion of Falcon. The simple fact of pairing Cap - who basically tossed himself into war head-on and never truly came back - with a PTSD counselor is brilliant, because it's both plausible (the run into similar circles) and create a good basic for some future confrontation between the two.
Batman has a psychological dynamic similar to Cap: Bruce Wayne never left Crime Alley, he died alongside his parents. It's something similar to a case of PTSD, but more extreme and more twisted. What Batman often lacks is a counterpart that point out to him the size of his egomania and missing contact with the world around him. Nolan's trilogy tries to create some links, but utterly fails, since the whole story revolves so much around Batman being Batman that the world around him became insignificant in too many ways. Everyone in Gotham (from the police, to the army, even Alfred most of the time) seem to depend on Batman to act, which nullifies the "realism" part of the story.
Back to the main topic, I think that the reason why good = stupid is that too many people think that being good means being overtly concerned with other people. Putting their need so far above our that you nullify yourself in the process. Destroying yourself for the sake of the world. Well, I have a big question for you all: isn't that exactly what Nolan's grim'n'gritty Batman does ALL THE TIME? (sorry for the caption)
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- Woodclaw
-
Topic Author
- Offline
- Administrator
-
Less
More
29 Apr 2014 02:19 #36320
by castor
Replied by castor on topic Superheroes and doing good
I am going to bring up another movie that gets a lot in this argument.
Man of Steel- the problem with that is that its superman is really a dark character. Yes he kills at the end, but hes clearly at the same time pretty broke up about it-and its not Like Superman hasn't killed people in the comics before( In the theaterical cut of Superman 2 he killed Zod). If you go by his actions and his ideals he is reasonably humanly white. He just exists in a very dark world, a world which he assumes won't accept him, and seems the very act hurts him. He exists in that movie to suffer. To feel pain, in a couple of scenes litterally without much respite.
On sites like ours there seems to be a very hard line in fandom- those who like there heros to be in peril-in effect to suffer-or not. I can respect that to a degree. As writer i can certainly understand it-you want your main character to suffer slings and arrows. However thats not necessrily why you come to superman-Christopher Reeve was good at this-his character suffers miserably in the movies-but theres part of it that knows that hes got the damm best job in the world and should at some level feel joy for it.
Which Chris Evans in winter solder at least has some inkling of. I didn't particularly like The first Captian America and found him okay in Avengers-but hes devoloping at least the character. Yes he has scenes where he has regret and he has anguish-but hes trying he seems to be making a good faith effort. He can even make jokes. He seems to get some enjoyment out of his life-hes 95 but he is human. You bring up the falcon-well thats part of his effort to try.
Its not that he is good-but that he feels good-which his good actions feel better-yes he is put through the ringer in that movie but he gets some life out of it. Captian America 2 is a white vs grey movie-which makes sence, and at least it tries to show there is some virtue in thegood.
Which is where black vs white stands for me. Batman is a very diffrent character then Captian. he i grey fighting blackest evil- Joker would horrify the Hydra in the second movie-but well it tries.. Its perhaps well that its not until the last minute any real joy in the story- and a real purely good Batman ala the 50-60s isn't that intresting on a number of levels. but i can respect those movies. Its fair. You don't want everything from one movie-that never works.
Man of Steel- the problem with that is that its superman is really a dark character. Yes he kills at the end, but hes clearly at the same time pretty broke up about it-and its not Like Superman hasn't killed people in the comics before( In the theaterical cut of Superman 2 he killed Zod). If you go by his actions and his ideals he is reasonably humanly white. He just exists in a very dark world, a world which he assumes won't accept him, and seems the very act hurts him. He exists in that movie to suffer. To feel pain, in a couple of scenes litterally without much respite.
On sites like ours there seems to be a very hard line in fandom- those who like there heros to be in peril-in effect to suffer-or not. I can respect that to a degree. As writer i can certainly understand it-you want your main character to suffer slings and arrows. However thats not necessrily why you come to superman-Christopher Reeve was good at this-his character suffers miserably in the movies-but theres part of it that knows that hes got the damm best job in the world and should at some level feel joy for it.
Which Chris Evans in winter solder at least has some inkling of. I didn't particularly like The first Captian America and found him okay in Avengers-but hes devoloping at least the character. Yes he has scenes where he has regret and he has anguish-but hes trying he seems to be making a good faith effort. He can even make jokes. He seems to get some enjoyment out of his life-hes 95 but he is human. You bring up the falcon-well thats part of his effort to try.
Its not that he is good-but that he feels good-which his good actions feel better-yes he is put through the ringer in that movie but he gets some life out of it. Captian America 2 is a white vs grey movie-which makes sence, and at least it tries to show there is some virtue in thegood.
Which is where black vs white stands for me. Batman is a very diffrent character then Captian. he i grey fighting blackest evil- Joker would horrify the Hydra in the second movie-but well it tries.. Its perhaps well that its not until the last minute any real joy in the story- and a real purely good Batman ala the 50-60s isn't that intresting on a number of levels. but i can respect those movies. Its fair. You don't want everything from one movie-that never works.
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- castor
-
- Offline
- Platinum Member
-
Less
More
- Posts: 1576
- Thank you received: 503
29 Apr 2014 10:16 #36324
by Woodclaw
Replied by Woodclaw on topic Superheroes and doing good
I agree on most counts Castor, but not all.
First, I won't call Winter Soldier a white-grey morality scenario because that implies two parts which was not how that movie worked in my mind. One of the strong ideas was that everyone had his own agenda and the conflict arose from the fact that those agendas clashed wildly. This created that realism effect I was talking about, the whole movie didn't revolve around one character, but many.
First, I won't call Winter Soldier a white-grey morality scenario because that implies two parts which was not how that movie worked in my mind. One of the strong ideas was that everyone had his own agenda and the conflict arose from the fact that those agendas clashed wildly. This created that realism effect I was talking about, the whole movie didn't revolve around one character, but many.
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- Woodclaw
-
Topic Author
- Offline
- Administrator
-
Less
More
- Posts: 3604
- Thank you received: 1991
05 May 2014 02:36 - 05 May 2014 02:50 #36374
by castor
i am going to make one more comment after watching the Amazing Spiderman 2- specifically about the ending so...spoilers.
At the end of the movie Spiderman Kills Electro.
No reaction from the audience, or the movie for that matter. He just explodes. No one is sad-hes just defeated.
Spiderman isn't a murderer-Electro isn't supose to be felt sympathy for, or for that matter that glad hes dead-we just got to move on to the next bit.
I think it wouldn't be hard to classify this movie as a a lightish superhero doing good type movie-in my scale above Its Good fighting evil) why agian are they actually evil? well the plot demanded them to be) Spiderman is a good figure who the world seems to like well enough, and he enjoys being spiderman when its not torturing him for not being able to be with the woman he loves--for reasons agian that are not super well explained. The one thing i really like about the amazing spiderman is it cuts a lot of the soap opera of the comics or the first series for that matter.
I mentioned before Man of Steel-which did the same thing. But good or bad-you got to respect them for selling it. It was the main hero, killing the villian- and he cried about it after-which felt apprioate. it was his action and it had consiquence. Here not so much. Just a hero dealing with a bulshit ticking timebomb(as i am sure Fats can bring up why it felt so. There are power outages all the time and planes don't crash into each other)
But as for the death- it didn't feel out of place- which is where it struck me to the disucssion-it felt in Tone for the movie, and that seemmed to be whats important--actual morality of actions are perhaps a tad less relevent then to tone- which was spiderman lightish. so its not hard to care. By the same token Robert Redford gets killed at the ned of Captian America(nto by cap), but well...tone. How do you sell tone.
This isn't a completly devoloped idea but wanted to share.
Replied by castor on topic Superheroes and doing good
Woodclaw wrote: I agree on most counts Castor, but not all.
First, I won't call Winter Soldier a white-grey morality scenario because that implies two parts which was not how that movie worked in my mind. One of the strong ideas was that everyone had his own agenda and the conflict arose from the fact that those agendas clashed wildly. This created that realism effect I was talking about, the whole movie didn't revolve around one character, but many.
i am going to make one more comment after watching the Amazing Spiderman 2- specifically about the ending so...spoilers.
Warning: Spoiler!
At the end of the movie Spiderman Kills Electro.
No reaction from the audience, or the movie for that matter. He just explodes. No one is sad-hes just defeated.
Spiderman isn't a murderer-Electro isn't supose to be felt sympathy for, or for that matter that glad hes dead-we just got to move on to the next bit.
I think it wouldn't be hard to classify this movie as a a lightish superhero doing good type movie-in my scale above Its Good fighting evil) why agian are they actually evil? well the plot demanded them to be) Spiderman is a good figure who the world seems to like well enough, and he enjoys being spiderman when its not torturing him for not being able to be with the woman he loves--for reasons agian that are not super well explained. The one thing i really like about the amazing spiderman is it cuts a lot of the soap opera of the comics or the first series for that matter.
I mentioned before Man of Steel-which did the same thing. But good or bad-you got to respect them for selling it. It was the main hero, killing the villian- and he cried about it after-which felt apprioate. it was his action and it had consiquence. Here not so much. Just a hero dealing with a bulshit ticking timebomb(as i am sure Fats can bring up why it felt so. There are power outages all the time and planes don't crash into each other)
But as for the death- it didn't feel out of place- which is where it struck me to the disucssion-it felt in Tone for the movie, and that seemmed to be whats important--actual morality of actions are perhaps a tad less relevent then to tone- which was spiderman lightish. so its not hard to care. By the same token Robert Redford gets killed at the ned of Captian America(nto by cap), but well...tone. How do you sell tone.
This isn't a completly devoloped idea but wanted to share.
Last edit: 05 May 2014 02:50 by castor.
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- castor
-
- Offline
- Platinum Member
-
Less
More
- Posts: 1576
- Thank you received: 503
Time to create page: 0.047 seconds