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The Matrix , is it real

05 Jun 2016 21:22 #48289 by Woodclaw
The Matrix , is it real was created by Woodclaw

shadar wrote:

TwiceOnThursdays wrote:

shadar wrote: One cannot forget, however, that there was an earlier costume:


Ahem.

Technically that's not her first costume. It's an amalgam of her first costume and the Karla Sofen Ms. Marvel Costume w/ some alterations. The Top is cut similarly to her original uniform, but it's black and not blue, and has thigh high boots. The front/back cutouts lines are different -- but to be honest they shifted in the original artwork a lot before the cut-outs were eventually removed. (After the circuitry in her costume burned out so it was no longer special.)

Her side markings didn't come to point either -- Sofen's did in some artist renderings though.

I read those comics more than a few times ....


Agreed. I should have more appropriately said my published pict "suggested" her first costume.

Which brings me to an interesting thought... we are at Level 1 of a continuum of artistic expression where the limits are primarily human skills. We might have the ability to conceive the perfect image of some fictional character or place, but few of us have the ability to express it convincingly in art.

So when does Level 2 arrive? When technology allows people like us can create our perfect representations of fictional people or places without having to spend five years learning to be a Photoshop artist or have skill? When each of us has our own view of perfection.

Then Level 3. Now it starts to get interesting. At this point such individual creations become strong actors in a life-like computer simulation? Perhaps in a time where no two people see exactly the same movie. Movies we each create along with our personal AI movie director/producers/actors.

By Level 4 we live in the simulation, ala Holo Deck of Star Trek. Humans no longer populate the natural world. A simulation that can run anywhere, and not just on Earth.

I always like to imagine that future crews of starships on long missions will be part of a vast computer simulation that links up with other nets and updates itself when ships are close enough to each other. When the crew aren't doing physical tasks on their ships, they are inside the simulation (which also ties into most ship functions).

They might be floating through vacuum in tin cans, billions or trillions of miles from anywhere, yet they live complex social lives with simulated beings of great imagination, intelligence and emotions. Some of which are real people that are not present in their current tin can.

My own spin on the Matrix that I think is more than likely. We move a little closer every year. The Net which we are all part of is the necessary (but far from sufficient) first step.


To be honest this is the kind of thoughts that scares me. As both an avid reader and RPG player Im very much into the creation of fictional worlds, but I also feel there's a significant issue with having a form of representation that is "more real than reality".
From a purely technical perspective I think that such a precise representation would kill many narrative artifacts that rely on the ignorance of the reader/viewer. This is something that already happens in many CGI-fest style movies, something that often kills my ability to enjoy a scene because the director felt the need to show every detail instead of allowing the audience to fill the gaps. I know that not every scene needs to be like the shower in Psycho, but neither every scene need to showcase every little detail from the start. One of the best examples for me is the comparison between the Medusa scene in the original "Clash of the Titan" and the remake: as much as the effects have improved, I believe that the slow pacing of the original returnred a better scene overall, making it more menacing and more effective.

Original

Remake


From a personal perspective I'm a bit worried about the possible consequences on human relationships, because the next (il)logical step would be to have some kind of personalized reality for each and every one of us.

(formerly Anon, still Librarian)

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05 Jun 2016 22:47 #48292 by shadar
Replied by shadar on topic The Matrix , is it real
I agree that the original Medusa is more suspenseful and scary. But that's due to the CGI (actually despite it) but because of the directing of the remake. I don't understand the obsession to make everything look like a video game.

If I live long enough to see Level 2 or 3, that's not how I'd envision it. Which is part of my point. Today we get to see what others with (money, technology, skill) envision, but not what we envision. So while that remake scene might have been good for some people, we think it sucks.

As far as people interacting less in person and ultimately only via the simulation, I think we're clearly on that path in the first world. Once we can feel, taste, smell and otherwise experience the simulation that's indistinguishable from reality (but without the boundaries), and suffer from consequences, it will simply be a new kind of life.

We'll probably still need people with creative imaginations to make shared worlds, but maybe we'll all have our own version of it.

The interesting question... is human life a state of body and mind, bound by the limits of both, or can humanity exist devoid of the body and its limitations, bonded instead to a computer simulation?

Or is that something else?

The second question is whether we want to live there. I won't have that choice. You may.

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06 Jun 2016 16:39 - 06 Jun 2016 17:06 #48303 by brantley
Replied by brantley on topic The Matrix , is it real
This re: a chapter of Laurence Manning's The Man Who Awoke series (1933):

<<Real experience has been forsaken altogether in “The City of Sleep,” in favor of direct stimulation of the brain. Individuals can tune into, even share vividly romantic or adventurous dreams, while their bodies, wired into the dream machines, waste away.>>

Manning and Fletcher Pratt had already touched on that idea in "City of the Living Dead" (1930). Just did a Google search, and it turns out that story is available online:

en.wikisource.org/wiki/City_of_the_Living_Dead

Raymond Z. Gallun addressed the same issue in "The Lotus Engine" (1940). and returned to it in his novel The Eden Cycle (1974).

--Brantley
Last edit: 06 Jun 2016 17:06 by brantley.

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06 Jun 2016 18:26 - 06 Jun 2016 18:29 #48304 by kikass2014
Replied by kikass2014 on topic The Matrix , is it real

The interesting question... is human life a state of body and mind, bound by the limits of both, or can humanity exist devoid of the body and its limitations, bonded instead to a computer simulation?

Or is that something else?

The second question is whether we want to live there. I won't have that choice. You may.


That is an interesting question. Can one transfer their consciousness into a machine? I believe that we will experience VR in a more advanced form then we have today, and most likely society will be based around it. But I personally do not believe you can carry on existing inside the machine once the body dies. While I subscribe to the theory that the mind is distinct from the body, I do not believe you can transfer your "mind" to a machine forever.

I do, however, believe that we do carry on after death. But that is a topic for another discussion :)

Peace.

/K

P.S. Wait, how did we get from "Brie Larson as Captain Marvel?" to metaphysical discussion about life, consciousness, simulation and simulacra? Not that I mind :P
Last edit: 06 Jun 2016 18:29 by kikass2014.

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06 Jun 2016 19:04 #48305 by shadar
Replied by shadar on topic The Matrix , is it real

brantley wrote: This re: a chapter of Laurence Manning's The Man Who Awoke series (1933):

<<Real experience has been forsaken altogether in “The City of Sleep,” in favor of direct stimulation of the brain. Individuals can tune into, even share vividly romantic or adventurous dreams, while their bodies, wired into the dream machines, waste away.>>

Manning and Fletcher Pratt had already touched on that idea in "City of the Living Dead" (1930). Just did a Google search, and it turns out that story is available online:

en.wikisource.org/wiki/City_of_the_Living_Dead

Raymond Z. Gallun addressed the same issue in "The Lotus Engine" (1940). and returned to it in his novel The Eden Cycle (1974).

--Brantley


Every story like that which I've come across has a dystopian flavor, often to the extreme.

I enjoy novels where this (likely) future state of being is explored in a positive sense. This could become the ultimate transformation for humankind, allowing us to escape the prison of our biology and its inherent aging.

If an advanced computer of some kind could be developed (by other computers as is already largely the case for microelectronics) that was as advanced as the human brain, and using a neuron structure or simulation of neurons, then perhaps there will be a way to map a human mind and all its intricacies into the machine. Then we'll get to live forever and travel throughout the galaxy.

One line of stories that tickle my fancy in this area are Niall Teasdale's series of books in the Aneka Johnson "Steel" series. They begin with Aneka waking up in the future (many hundreds of years) to find that she now inhabits an advanced alien artificial construct (which happens to be an exceptionally sexy woman) where her consciousness is contained within a computer program. The stories are SF in nature, but they cross over a little into our genre.

The alien machine she inhabits was created by humanity's greatest foe, an alien species who was beaten back at great cost hundreds of years ago, but which still threatens humans. Presumably to infiltrate our species, but Aneka is definitely on humanities side. Her technical capabilities are superhuman in several ways.

The books strongly reflect Teasdale's fascination with exotic sex, which can get a bit over the top at times, even for me. They aren't literature (think cheesy B-grade SF movies) but are fairly well written. My understanding is that Teasdale is a pen-name for a tech geek living in the UK who has a big imagination.

You can find the Kindle versions on Amazon.

Here's the cover of one of his books, showing Aneka in her usual style of dress.



Shadar

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06 Jun 2016 20:29 #48313 by Woodclaw
Replied by Woodclaw on topic The Matrix , is it real

shadar wrote:

brantley wrote: This re: a chapter of Laurence Manning's The Man Who Awoke series (1933):

<<Real experience has been forsaken altogether in “The City of Sleep,” in favor of direct stimulation of the brain. Individuals can tune into, even share vividly romantic or adventurous dreams, while their bodies, wired into the dream machines, waste away.>>

Manning and Fletcher Pratt had already touched on that idea in "City of the Living Dead" (1930). Just did a Google search, and it turns out that story is available online:

en.wikisource.org/wiki/City_of_the_Living_Dead

Raymond Z. Gallun addressed the same issue in "The Lotus Engine" (1940). and returned to it in his novel The Eden Cycle (1974).

--Brantley


Every story like that which I've come across has a dystopian flavor, often to the extreme.

I enjoy novels where this (likely) future state of being is explored in a positive sense. This could become the ultimate transformation for humankind, allowing us to escape the prison of our biology and its inherent aging.

If an advanced computer of some kind could be developed (by other computers as is already largely the case for microelectronics) that was as advanced as the human brain, and using a neuron structure or simulation of neurons, then perhaps there will be a way to map a human mind and all its intricacies into the machine. Then we'll get to live forever and travel throughout the galaxy.

One line of stories that tickle my fancy in this area are Niall Teasdale's series of books in the Aneka Johnson "Steel" series. They begin with Aneka waking up in the future (many hundreds of years) to find that she now inhabits an advanced alien artificial construct (which happens to be an exceptionally sexy woman) where her consciousness is contained within a computer program. The stories are SF in nature, but they cross over a little into our genre.

The alien machine she inhabits was created by humanity's greatest foe, an alien species who was beaten back at great cost hundreds of years ago, but which still threatens humans. Presumably to infiltrate our species, but Aneka is definitely on humanities side. Her technical capabilities are superhuman in several ways.

The books strongly reflect Teasdale's fascination with exotic sex, which can get a bit over the top at times, even for me. They aren't literature (think cheesy B-grade SF movies) but are fairly well written. My understanding is that Teasdale is a pen-name for a tech geek living in the UK who has a big imagination.

You can find the Kindle versions on Amazon.

Here's the cover of one of his books, showing Aneka in her usual style of dress.



Shadar


I think that the big reason for all these stories going down the dystopian route, even before the cyberpunk writer made it extra popular, is that putting a human personality inside a computer is something that can either radically change the way one tend to perceive oneself and/or be a lot closer to immortality. There was even an Isaac Asimov short story -- "The Segregationist" -- about the risks of merging human and artificial, which I always found endlessly amusing because a cyborg was one of the possible answers to the final problem of the Foundations.
In general I think that the issue with cybords is that they easily fall into the "uncanny valley" that point in human perception were something aping a human goes from cute to creepy (see the video).



Henceforth cyborg are perceived as threatening, because they are human and inhuman at the same time, making easy to build a dystopian scenario around them. Heck, this is ina nutshell the entire logic behind the Terminator.

Now I happen to love the concept of cybernetics and I do love optimist scenarios, but I have to say that this thread is going wa off topic ;)

(formerly Anon, still Librarian)

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06 Jun 2016 20:38 #48314 by andyf
Replied by andyf on topic The Matrix , is it real
What do any of these recent posts have to do with Brie Larson playing Captain Marvel?

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06 Jun 2016 20:39 #48315 by LustMonster
Replied by LustMonster on topic The Matrix , is it real

Now I happen to love the concept of cybernetics and I do love optimist scenarios, but I have to say that this thread is going way off topic ;)


Sending a thread way off topic could be construed as a kind of superpower.

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06 Jun 2016 21:52 #48319 by fats
Replied by fats on topic The Matrix , is it real
I've split this topic off from the Capt. Marvel thread and have given it a new title.

Hope this works.

Fats

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07 Jun 2016 09:20 - 07 Jun 2016 13:28 #48332 by slim36
Replied by slim36 on topic The Matrix , is it real
in the near future mixed reality will be commonplace, allowing ordinary users to have simulated superpowers.
Last edit: 07 Jun 2016 13:28 by slim36.

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