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Naughty or Nice?

28 Oct 2006 03:56 #7139 by yohashuan
Naughty or Nice? was created by yohashuan
Girls are great. Really hot girls are even greater. But super hot girls with huge, gravity-defying knockers who can bench battleships are the absolute greatest of all.

On this, I think we can all agree. But when it comes down to it, which do you really prefer to fantasize about:

A) Impossibly gorgeous, super-powerful girls who wreak havoc and arrogantly display their superiority over the puny, pathetic men/playthings that surround them.

or B) Impossibly gorgeous, super-powerful girls who are actually genuine, nice, innocent people at heart with true good natures. Girls who use their fantastic powers for the aid of humanity (not to mention the personal enjoyment of their lovers).

On the one hand, you've got the sort of Conceptfan/Marknew/etc style fiction featuring... well, for lack of a better word... bitches... that is a benchmark of this genre. On the other, you've got things like the Aurora Universe and of course all the classic comic book do-gooder superheroines to fantasize about. Tough to choose just one as there are clearly positives for either side. Personally, I took option B, but I'm wondering if there's a prevailing consensus on this.

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28 Oct 2006 13:34 #7140 by lfan
Replied by lfan on topic Naughty or Nice?
I voted for "nice" but if there was a 3rd choice for "Supergirls just wanna have fun", I'd vote that. This, in my mind, would be a slant toward "nice" but not so much the heroine and goody-too-shoes that most heroines are stereotyped as.

Ubergals in this category I would classify as being predominently good but capable of being mischievous and "human", using their powers for personal gain and revenge as their mood suits. They don't go out of their way to be evil or seek world domination but they aren't afraid to break a few pieces of furniture if the situation arises.

My $.02
ElF

Girls are great. Really hot girls are even greater. But super hot girls with huge, gravity-defying knockers who can bench battleships are the absolute greatest of all.

On this, I think we can all agree. But when it comes down to it, which do you really prefer to fantasize about:

A) Impossibly gorgeous, super-powerful girls who wreak havoc and arrogantly display their superiority over the puny, pathetic men/playthings that surround them.

or B) Impossibly gorgeous, super-powerful girls who are actually genuine, nice, innocent people at heart with true good natures. Girls who use their fantastic powers for the aid of humanity (not to mention the personal enjoyment of their lovers).

On the one hand, you've got the sort of Conceptfan/Marknew/etc style fiction featuring... well, for lack of a better word... bitches... that is a benchmark of this genre. On the other, you've got things like the Aurora Universe and of course all the classic comic book do-gooder superheroines to fantasize about. Tough to choose just one as there are clearly positives for either side. Personally, I took option B, but I'm wondering if there's a prevailing consensus on this.

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28 Oct 2006 15:55 #7141 by Sarge395
Replied by Sarge395 on topic Naughty or Nice?
No surprise here but I'm all for the naughty (nasty or bitchy). Grew up on the old Sharon Best stuff. That had a lot of both styles. Really loved the dark Supergirl stuff when that came out. Conceptfan, MarkNew, DKC, Dru, Ursa's site are all fav's of mine. The other stuff is also great. Can't get enough of the good girl stuff. Love it when they tend to act a bit more human however. Every now and then they turn a bit wicked towards the bad guys or someone who ticked them off and deserves it.

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28 Oct 2006 19:18 #7144 by Woodclaw
Replied by Woodclaw on topic Naughty or Nice?

I voted for "nice" but if there was a 3rd choice for "Supergirls just wanna have fun", I'd vote that. This, in my mind, would be a slant toward "nice" but not so much the heroine and goody-too-shoes that most heroines are stereotyped as.

Ubergals in this category I would classify as being predominently good but capable of being mischievous and "human", using their powers for personal gain and revenge as their mood suits. They don't go out of their way to be evil or seek world domination but they aren't afraid to break a few pieces of furniture if the situation arises.


I agree with Lfan.

Both options have their perks and drawbacks. I have read several stories and I enjoy both of them, I think that the mark of a good author is to make a story interesting even for people that usually don't like a certain kind of narrative.

By the way the best stories that I remember are those of about characters that are good, but not to a paroxistical level like some heroes from the comic's silver age.

PS: I don't vote because I can make a definte choice.

(formerly Anon, still Librarian)

"What is the point of having free will if one cannot occasionally spit in the eye of destiny?" ("Gentleman" John Marcone)

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28 Oct 2006 20:54 #7146 by happiest_in_shadows
Replied by happiest_in_shadows on topic Naughty or Nice?
I’m going to have to vote for nice as I’d want to live through my encounter with the super fem and with all my limbs intact. However, I don’t consider nice to mean she’s a passivist. One of my favorite quotes from a super fem is roughly.

“If your existence will harm my friends in anyway I will kill you.”

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28 Oct 2006 21:42 #7147 by Grayface
Replied by Grayface on topic Naughty or Nice?
What do you think I picked? I you said nice...you'd be wrong! I try I really do, some times I can imagen something like what lfan said kinda mischievous but probably more on the darker side of life.

Aww who the hell am I kidding balls to the wall E V I L. You guys better hope that choice never gets put in my hands cuz were all doomed.

I just can not truthfully visualize a truly good “Superhero” I don't think it's possible (for me), I understand were talking fantasy and I just cant get my self imagine a comic book good hero in any of my own fantasy's. At best morally apathetic towards the plight of us, she just wants to do what ever she wants, when ever she wants, how ever she wants, and if you get in her way well to bad for you. That would be the nicest i think I could go.

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28 Oct 2006 22:51 #7150 by Random321
Replied by Random321 on topic Naughty or Nice?
I like a good hero so long as she's not sugar sweet, she has an attitude, and she's a bit of a tease (no naive airheads for me). She's got to want to kick some butt.

That said, a good girl how goes really bad for a stretch makes for a great story. I’m not looking for some angry man hater, or a bitch. I’m looking for a girl who does some really harmful stuff and needs a good lesson from the good hero mentioned above or she has an epiphany and changes her ways back to being good.

Summary: Good Girl is good. But being a Bad Girl from time to time can be good too. :wink:

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29 Oct 2006 17:04 #7154 by ace191
Replied by ace191 on topic Naughty or Nice?
I am sure that this comes as no suprise to anyone but I like them good, very good in fact but not afraid to use their powers if the situation warrants it.

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30 Oct 2006 17:52 #7169 by argonaut
Replied by argonaut on topic Naughty or Nice?
"Nice" -- no surprise -- but not above ...

... having fun
... showing off
... teasing
... mischief

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31 Oct 2006 23:01 #7186 by yohashuan
Replied by yohashuan on topic Naughty or Nice?
Why so many disclaimers? Did anyone here really think I meant "unwilling to be sexy and demonstrative with her superpowers" when I wrote "nice"? Well rest assured, that's not what I meant!

Really cool to see upwards of 40 people have voted. And also that the race is basically a tie! Maybe we should split up into two sides and have some kind of battle royale? I bet all the "I like to fantasize about getting my ass kicked" guys would get their asses kicked! :P

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02 Nov 2006 15:04 #7236 by brantley
Replied by brantley on topic Naughty or Nice?
I voted for "nice," but I want to explain myself, because the choice offered here is a bit misleading. I think it's intended to be about good versus bad, but "nice" tends to have a connotation of icky-poo, like the Mighty Isis on TV who seemed to have nothing better to do than rescue stray children and cats. Whereas "naughty" has a positive connotation when it means simply going against puritan restraints as opposed to true morality -- we all want our women to be "naughty" in bed, meaning uninhibited. But most of us want them to be GOOD in the plain old-fashioned sense of the word -- not cruel and domineering like Conceptfan's heroines. There's a big difference between good and goody-twoshoes, as important though perhaps not as obvious, as that between good and evil.

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02 Nov 2006 17:04 #7238 by conceptfan
Replied by conceptfan on topic Naughty or Nice?

I bet all the "I like to fantasize about getting my ass kicked" guys would get their asses kicked! :P

The Masochist to the Sadist: "Hurt me! Hurt me!"
The Sadist to the Masochist: "No."



I voted "naughty" becuase I found it the least unappealing of the 2 options. Contrary to popular belief I don't think my characters are actually "evil" per se. "Evil" implies a deliberate IMmorality. I like to see my characters as Amoral - they are too superior to be concerned with the rules and conventions of us ordinary folks. All those laws and rights and wrongs become irrelevant when you're THAT powerful.

Cruel, yes. It's a fantasy. None of it is "real". So, if I'm going to create a character that's so superior to those around her, she may as well flaunt her "crushing" (hehe) superiority at every possible opportunity. And what better way to do that than by breaking every rule we live by?

That's just my taste. A few people here share it, most don't. I'm cool with that, but I thought I should say something seeing as I'd been name-checked above.

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02 Nov 2006 22:38 #7241 by yohashuan
Replied by yohashuan on topic Naughty or Nice?
It was a lot harder to word this poll than I thought it'd be. It's simply impossible to draw a line directly down the center of this genre, because almost every story has elements of both. Is an ubergirl who uses her fantastic new powers to take out the entire high-school football team that'd been picking on her boyfriend a good girl or a bad girl? On the one hand, she's helping her poor, afflicted boyfriend... and on the other hand, she's brutalizing and emotionally destroying some kids who were just engaging in your run-of-the-mill adolescent shenanigans.

In the end, I trusted everyone to just innately know what I meant by 'naught vs nice' and go with that. So far, I think everyone's got it. Though it is fun to discuss semantics by the this point in the thread.

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03 Nov 2006 00:23 #7244 by shadar
Replied by shadar on topic Naughty or Nice?
I always tried t keep it simple with my Supremis. Velorians had blonde hair and were 'nice'. Arions had black hair and were 'naughty'.

No magic to that... I stole the idea from the 1930's and 40's westerns where the good guys had white hats and the bad guys had black. Made it easy to sort them out at a distance.

It wasn't until the late 50's that I was old enough to understand shades of gray. Black hats who had a soft spot, and white hats with fatal flaws.

Obviously Velorians as I've depicted them range from super-powered Playmates in some people's mind to selfless and enlightened protectors of human free will in other minds. They allow humans to do very bad things to each other (free will) but only intervene when the Arions get involved. Genocide involving only humans isn't their problem. Sort of like Greenpeace, except the bad guys aren't oil companies, polluters and whalers, but Arions.

That's way different than Superman/Supergirl comics where they'd stop two-bit hoods on the street and rescue cats from trees. They were way too 'nice' for my taste. Also way to busy being busybodies.

Some Arions are kind of cool, even if they think that a strong military is the best way to protect humans and some restrictions on freedoms are good things for an orderly socitety. Torture is a handy tool if used 'responsibly'. They find it way easy to infiltrate and make themselves at home in Terran government and politics, which says something about my politics.

But for fairness, I also show them as fanning the flames of hate groups and terrorism, although most radicals hardly need Arion instigators to turn up the heat.


Shadar

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04 Nov 2006 17:18 #7254 by WhitePaw
Replied by WhitePaw on topic Naughty or Nice?
"Young lady, in THIS house we obey the laws of thermodynamics!"--Homer Simpson.

"Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely."

Evolution is a scam and it's outright forbidden by the Law of Entropy. No matter how servant minded or master minded (notice I'm not using "good/evil" or "nice/naughty" as I eschew stereotypes when they're too one-dimensional), an ubergirl is created to be, she will inevitably decay further and further into hedonistic chaos.

As will her story and her author. Nothing unexpected or even personal. Its just the Law.

That said: I vastly prefer servant-minded ubergirls. Master-minded ubergirls make me ill to my heart and churn my stomach--and not in an entertaining way.

All the above is why I think we all like origin stories so much, when life is simple, before everything falls apart. Its also why I keep all my stories short, even shamelessly unfinished. Nor will I really read any of yours once they get too gorey.

Write on.
-Paw.
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21 Nov 2006 00:46 #7372 by happiest_in_shadows
Replied by happiest_in_shadows on topic Naughty or Nice?

"
"Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely."
Write on.
-Paw.


Actually the quote is, “Power tends to corrupt, absolute power corrupts absolutely.” It was made by Lord Acton a British historian. Who stated it is a tendency not an absolute law except in the case of absolute power. Of course that brings up the question. What is absolute power?

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21 Nov 2006 16:55 #7374 by WhitePaw
Replied by WhitePaw on topic Naughty or Nice?
Alrighty, fine. Looking for Unbreakable Laws: "The total entropy of a closed system may only remain the same or increase."--Newton.

Draw whatever system boundaries you please, around a petri dish, around an ubergirl, around the world, around the galaxy, around the Universe. It matters not.

There are no exceptions.

You cannot reduce the entropy (unusable energy, some would say "chaos") in a closed system without some outside influence. Even then you can't destroy entropy. It just gets sluffed off into the larger system drawn around your previously 'outside' influence.

Works anthropologically too. Ever wonder why history seems to be spiraling towards chaos, with only minor fits of civility lasting no more than a century or two (when one people temporarily sluff off their social entropy onto their neighbors, only to have it riptide back to them)? Or why since the oldest recorded human history not one single day the sun rose over land has passed that was devoid of some war somewhere on the planet? (One record says the sun rose over water for 40 days in peace once, but that's just a fairy tale anymore).

All the while the world's total system entropy is only increasing, faster and faster for all the harder and harder we work to make things better. According to the Law, its exactly that work we're trying to do that's adding to the entropy around us. Entropy may only remain the same in systems at rest. Any work at all creates an entropy byproduct, and it has to go somewhere, it cannot be destroyed.

How much moreso an ubergirl's very breathing? Not even an ubergirl can escape the law of entropy. Everything she does just dumps massive amounts of mechanical and sociological entropy into the world, to say nothing of her psyche.

Obey the Law, citizen. You're soaking in it anyway. You cannot escape it without some influence from outside the system...and you can't get there from here.

I'll stop just shy of saying anything at all about Jesus. Believe what you wish. Reality doesn't give a damn what you believe so neither do I.

Cheers!
-Paw.

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21 Nov 2006 17:14 #7375 by WhitePaw
Replied by WhitePaw on topic Naughty or Nice?
Oh, and yeah. My real answer to "but what is absolute power" is in my previous post. Once.

But more in-genre: absolute power is the ability to effortlessly impose your will (preferably while laughing) upon those who would resist you.

:lol:
-Paw.

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21 Nov 2006 18:00 #7376 by happiest_in_shadows
Replied by happiest_in_shadows on topic Naughty or Nice?

Alrighty, fine. Looking for Unbreakable Laws: "The total entropy of a closed system may only remain the same or increase."--Newton.

Draw whatever system boundaries you please, around a petri dish, around an ubergirl, around the world, around the galaxy, around the Universe. It matters not.

There are no exceptions.

You cannot reduce the entropy (unusable energy, some would say "chaos") in a closed system without some outside influence. Even then you can't destroy entropy. It just gets sluffed off into the larger system drawn around your previously 'outside' influence.

Works anthropologically too. Ever wonder why history seems to be spiraling towards chaos, with only minor fits of civility lasting no more than a century or two (when one people temporarily sluff off their social entropy onto their neighbors, only to have it riptide back to them)? Or why since the oldest recorded human history not one single day the sun rose over land has passed that was devoid of some war somewhere on the planet? (One record says the sun rose over water for 40 days in peace once, but that's just a fairy tale anymore).

All the while the world's total system entropy is only increasing, faster and faster for all the harder and harder we work to make things better. According to the Law, its exactly that work we're trying to do that's adding to the entropy around us. Entropy may only remain the same in systems at rest. Any work at all creates an entropy byproduct, and it has to go somewhere, it cannot be destroyed.

How much moreso an ubergirl's very breathing? Not even an ubergirl can escape the law of entropy. Everything she does just dumps massive amounts of mechanical and sociological entropy into the world, to say nothing of her psyche.

Obey the Law, citizen. You're soaking in it anyway. You cannot escape it without some influence from outside the system...and you can't get there from here.

I'll stop just shy of saying anything at all about Jesus. Believe what you wish. Reality doesn't give a damn what you believe so neither do I.

Cheers!
-Paw.


Well I don’t agree with the idea of using a law of physics when talking about the psychology of human beings. I’m also not the type of person that sees chaos as a bad thing. To me absolute order results in destruction just like absolute chaos. For something to endure it must have a certain amount of order and chaos.

A force of chaos is not necessarily an evil thing especially when the order imposed upon a group is corrupt. Though once again I’ll say that I believe the concept of applying a law of physics to such situations is a flawed one.

As for your comment on reality. Those that hold to a certain belief tend to say that about everyone that doesn’t hold to the same belief. As most believe that they’re right and everyone else is wrong.

So I’ll just say this in regards to Christ. The teachings of Jesus have always brought me comfort and most importantly always worked in regards to my life.

Of course if you don't give a damn about what I believe why did you even comment?

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21 Nov 2006 19:05 #7377 by shadar
Replied by shadar on topic Naughty or Nice?
The most fascinating part of life is conversing with people who don't believe what we believe. Who see things in a completely different light. The most boring thing on Earth is to talk with someone who agrees with me on most things.

The only sin is when someone's beliefs and opinions are not well considered (as in, the ideas were accepted without their personally challenging them). Which is my beef with many religious fundamentalists of all faiths.

So back on topic, chaos or order, entropy or divine intervention to prevent entropy, its all fascinating. If you allow for the possibility of spirituality, then physical laws don't completely describe the universe or people's behavior.

In essence, that's the real fork in the philosophical road. You can take a few steps forward with a foot on each road, but as they diverge, it starts to hurt pretty fast.

Road One: If god exists, then physical laws are limited and changeable and the human soul is nth dimensional and impossible to fully define. Road Two: If he doesn't, then everything ultimately has a mathematical expression per existing physical laws, albeit an arbitrarily complex one.

The ever diverging landscape that exists between those two roads is full of briars and other sticky subjects. I say, pick one of the two paths and don't wander through the briar patches. Either road can be very interesting to travel on, they both have many smaller forks and they all go a very long way over the horizon, so you'll never get bored as long as you keep your brain engaged.

But don't forget which original fork in the road you took.

Personally, I took the fork that said god doesn't exist. Many of my favorite people took the other fork. We talk about hidden pathways that may exist through the briar patch that seperates the roads, which is interesting stuff. It's fun to wander through the wilderness, even to get lost for a while. But I always know when my feet return to the paved road.

Shadar

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