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That Weird Powers That I've Never Got

07 May 2018 10:31 #59394 by Woodclaw
That Weird Powers That I've Never Got was created by Woodclaw
I've been re-reading some sparse issue of Legion of Superheroes recently and I started thinking about superpowers, in particular characters with just a single power.

Among the plethora of time-tested classics (liek super-strength and super-speed) there are a number of oddballs and weird ideas, not to mentions powers that might work great in theory, but they might actually create more problems that they are worth.


I'm going to start with one of the elephants in the room: blasters.
The entire concept of a blaster character is really old and I'm always kind of surprised that it lasted so long. I can get the appeal of a character being able to shot fire, lighting or whatever from the eyes/hands, but if that's it then there's something missing. Characters like Cyclops or Lighting Lad are pretty much asking to be shot in the face as soon as they appear, they're often incredibly good at attacking, but they suck so hard of defence.

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07 May 2018 11:13 #59395 by Markiehoe
Replied by Markiehoe on topic That Weird Powers That I've Never Got

Woodclaw wrote: I'm going to start with one of the elephants in the room: blasters.
The entire concept of a blaster character is really old and I'm always kind of surprised that it lasted so long. I can get the appeal of a character being able to shot fire, lighting or whatever from the eyes/hands, but if that's it then there's something missing. Characters like Cyclops or Lighting Lad are pretty much asking to be shot in the face as soon as they appear, they're often incredibly good at attacking, but they suck so hard of defence.


You could say the same about a :Marksman" character.
"Just shoot em in the pistol"
If you are going to shoot, shoot into the torso where you have the best chance of hitting.

The thing about a character like Cyclops is not only do they have to be aggressive and shoot first they have to be smart to avoid the inevitable counter.

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07 May 2018 12:31 #59397 by Monty
Replied by Monty on topic That Weird Powers That I've Never Got
The. charmed sister's powers were a bit weird, especially Phoebe's premonition thing when she'd sort of freeze up. Piper's power was also a bit strange. How far did her freezing ability stretch to? Did the whole world come to a standstill when she waved her hands?
Prue's powers were probably the coolest, moving things around just by staring intently at them or gesturing towards them - there was a chance of her displaying a kind of superstrength with her power, but it was never explored.

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07 May 2018 14:40 #59398 by Woodclaw
Replied by Woodclaw on topic That Weird Powers That I've Never Got

Markiehoe wrote:

Woodclaw wrote: I'm going to start with one of the elephants in the room: blasters.
The entire concept of a blaster character is really old and I'm always kind of surprised that it lasted so long. I can get the appeal of a character being able to shot fire, lighting or whatever from the eyes/hands, but if that's it then there's something missing. Characters like Cyclops or Lighting Lad are pretty much asking to be shot in the face as soon as they appear, they're often incredibly good at attacking, but they suck so hard of defence.


You could say the same about a :Marksman" character.
"Just shoot em in the pistol"
If you are going to shoot, shoot into the torso where you have the best chance of hitting.

The thing about a character like Cyclops is not only do they have to be aggressive and shoot first they have to be smart to avoid the inevitable counter.


I got to admit that Cyclops is probably one of the worst examples I could come up with, since he has a lot of other skills (judo expert, excellent tactician and so on) that were much more of an asset than just his power..

My point was mostly about those characters that are "just" their power.

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07 May 2018 14:41 #59399 by Woodclaw
Replied by Woodclaw on topic That Weird Powers That I've Never Got

Monty wrote: The. charmed sister's powers were a bit weird, especially Phoebe's premonition thing when she'd sort of freeze up. Piper's power was also a bit strange. How far did her freezing ability stretch to? Did the whole world come to a standstill when she waved her hands?
Prue's powers were probably the coolest, moving things around just by staring intently at them or gesturing towards them - there was a chance of her displaying a kind of superstrength with her power, but it was never explored.


All true, although the scope of a show like Charmed rarely allow for such detailed explanations.

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07 May 2018 19:52 #59400 by TwiceOnThursdays
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Woodclaw wrote:

Markiehoe wrote:

Woodclaw wrote: I'm going to start with one of the elephants in the room: blasters.
The entire concept of a blaster character is really old and I'm always kind of surprised that it lasted so long. I can get the appeal of a character being able to shot fire, lighting or whatever from the eyes/hands, but if that's it then there's something missing. Characters like Cyclops or Lighting Lad are pretty much asking to be shot in the face as soon as they appear, they're often incredibly good at attacking, but they suck so hard of defence.


You could say the same about a :Marksman" character.
"Just shoot em in the pistol"
If you are going to shoot, shoot into the torso where you have the best chance of hitting.

The thing about a character like Cyclops is not only do they have to be aggressive and shoot first they have to be smart to avoid the inevitable counter.


I got to admit that Cyclops is probably one of the worst examples I could come up with, since he has a lot of other skills (judo expert, excellent tactician and so on) that were much more of an asset than just his power..

My point was mostly about those characters that are "just" their power.


There are a lot of super-powers that don't have a defensive component: Telepaths/empaths, some magic users (depending on the system of magic and their spells/how long they have to prepare), shapeshifters, weather maniuplation (e.g. Storm), etc. Even some with defensive capabilites have problems (anyone who has to put up a purposeful shield, like some Telekinetics, force wielders, etc). If you temporarially stun one of those characters, or take them by surprise, a few shots center mass will take them out just like any other human.

For most of these, the lack of defense is either part of the character, or by necessity, like non-powered heroes those heroes learn to adapt. There are many examples: Cyclops (sheer tactical ability to sense entire battlefield and training), Brainiac 5 (forcefield), Green Lantern (ring automatically defends), or Storm (hard to shoot in the middle of gale force winds).

It's amazing how deadly a dead-eye shot actually would be to most super-heroes, if you catch them off guard. Admittedly, you could only take down 50% of the Fantastic Four that way (Sue and Johnny), Reed and Ben can survive normal gunfire w/o doing anything .But even some classic Avengers teams don't fare well (Hawkeye, Captain America, Scarlet Witch, Quicksilver, Wasp, Ant-Man/Giant Man, etc could all be taken down by sniper fire (Hyper-sonic bullet, no way to hear it before it hits.) Modern Quicksilver might 'see it coming" and Captain America might get some benefit of battle sense causing him use his shield and be aware of lines of possible fire so that he naturally moves/stands where shots can't be easily taken. Once Tony Stark lets on he's Iron Man, even he is vulnerable (just snipe him while he's Tony Stark). It's really amazing how easily it would be to kill him as Stark due to his weaknesses (ego/lack of self-control/not as smart as he thinks he is). Bendis drove this home a few times during his run.

Hell most of the time Giant-Man isn't big enough that modern weapons with the right ammo wouldn't take him down.

It's why you end up with things like the ninja-ization of Kitty Pryde and Psylocke. Kitty is almost the other end of the spectrum: she's got an almost ultimate defensive power that has limited offense (it shorts out electronics). So giving her ninja skills meant she was capable of attack too.

But you also have Professor X who was in a wheel chair and only had telepathy. His defenselessness was part of his character.

There are occaisionally nods to this in Comics. The Punisher has been able to shoot Spider-Man. (in an early appearence He shoots Spidey's Webshooters off his hands)

When Marvel wanted to get rid of a bunch of heroes, they had Scourge go around and shoot a lot of them. Sure he had a special gun, but for most he killed he didn't need one.

But these break the "rules" set up in comics, where the effects of real world violence don't intrude. In reality, after being tossed around/beaten up by Spider-Man, most thugs would require extensive rehab, let alone most the super-villians. Any encounter with high-end super-strenght is likely deadly/long stay in hospital.
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07 May 2018 21:48 #59401 by Markiehoe
Replied by Markiehoe on topic That Weird Powers That I've Never Got
In another video which I can not find the guy pointed out how many times a competent marksman could have shot the Rhino and ended the threat.
Watch this video and see for yourself how ridiculous this situation was just so the film maker could show off that Hollywood Star Paul Giamatti was the Rhino.

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09 May 2018 04:55 #59425 by willow
Replied by willow on topic That Weird Powers That I've Never Got

Markiehoe wrote: In another video which I can not find the guy pointed out how many times a competent marksman could have shot the Rhino and ended the threat.
Watch this video and see for yourself how ridiculous this situation was just so the film maker could show off that Hollywood Star Paul Giamatti was the Rhino.


Ha. That movie was total garbage that made those early Marvel movies from the 70s and early 80s look well written.

Why are the police not desperately trying to get the large crowd of civilians away from a combat zone? Why are a bunch of civilians just hanging around to watch this firefight like its Hollywood production (oh wait, it is)? There is a famous bank robbery from California back in the 90s where the robbers had fully automatic weapons but were caught by the police while leaving the bank. As police and bank robbers have a full blown firefight, every civilian within sight is running for their lives or desperately hiding behind cover. Also, how the hell did he get that thing into downtown without anyone noticing? It's not like it is small enough to fit in a rented U-Haul truck. As for dealing with the Rhino, that suit can only carry so much ammunition that he is using like candy. Not to mention you could also just wait until Paul Giamatti needs to eat, sleep, or use the bathroom. Power armor is great but you can rarely live your entire life in it.
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09 May 2018 08:14 #59426 by Woodclaw
Replied by Woodclaw on topic That Weird Powers That I've Never Got

willow wrote:

Markiehoe wrote: In another video which I can not find the guy pointed out how many times a competent marksman could have shot the Rhino and ended the threat.
Watch this video and see for yourself how ridiculous this situation was just so the film maker could show off that Hollywood Star Paul Giamatti was the Rhino.


Ha. That movie was total garbage that made those early Marvel movies from the 70s and early 80s look well written.

Why are the police not desperately trying to get the large crowd of civilians away from a combat zone? Why are a bunch of civilians just hanging around to watch this firefight like its Hollywood production (oh wait, it is)? There is a famous bank robbery from California back in the 90s where the robbers had fully automatic weapons but were caught by the police while leaving the bank. As police and bank robbers have a full blown firefight, every civilian within sight is running for their lives or desperately hiding behind cover. Also, how the hell did he get that thing into downtown without anyone noticing? It's not like it is small enough to fit in a rented U-Haul truck. As for dealing with the Rhino, that suit can only carry so much ammunition that he is using like candy. Not to mention you could also just wait until Paul Giamatti needs to eat, sleep, or use the bathroom. Power armor is great but you can rarely live your entire life in it.


Not to mention every other moment in the movie ... heck they managed to make the death of Gwen Stacy boring.

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10 May 2018 04:26 #59431 by www1969
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This reminds me that a little while back, I was reading an old copy of West Coast Avengers, in which it was mentioned that Mockingbird's costume was essentially bulletproof. You will recall this is how she chose to clothe herself in the bulletproof material back then...

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10 May 2018 08:30 #59432 by Woodclaw
Replied by Woodclaw on topic That Weird Powers That I've Never Got

www1969 wrote: This reminds me that a little while back, I was reading an old copy of West Coast Avengers, in which it was mentioned that Mockingbird's costume was essentially bulletproof. You will recall this is how she chose to clothe herself in the bulletproof material back then...

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Yes, the bulletproof spandex is another of those iffy details that every now and then pops up. Mockingbird isn't even the worst offender in that regard.

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10 May 2018 11:18 #59436 by Markiehoe
Replied by Markiehoe on topic That Weird Powers That I've Never Got
Back when I read Spiderman comics the one that got me was Ace.

Apparently his super power was just standing there and looking cool.

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10 May 2018 18:05 #59441 by Woodclaw
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Markiehoe wrote: Back when I read Spiderman comics the one that got me was Ace.

Apparently his super power was just standing there and looking cool.


I've been a Marvel fan for a long time and I have no idea who he is.

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11 May 2018 00:01 #59445 by AuGoose
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Just remember, the second most common power is "Trivialize Guns".

Bullet-proof/Invulnerability
Spider sense/hyper-reflexes/speed force
Regeneration
Phasing/Intangibility
An adamantium shield/cutting bullets out of the air
Magnetic or Telekinetic catch/melt out of the air (spoilers: a couple of molten droplets of brass and lead moving at 2100fps will still kill you dead)

Dodge it, soak it, deflect it. Bullets don't work. It's always going to devolve into fisticuffs and energy beams. Almost every single melee hero there is makes shooting at them pointless AS A GIVEN. I often suspect its to try and head off the fridge logic that every single character that doesn't have offensive powers should be carrying a gun. Though certainly some of it comes from gunfire being visually uninteresting in sequential art.

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11 May 2018 00:11 - 11 May 2018 00:15 #59446 by AuGoose
Replied by AuGoose on topic That Weird Powers That I've Never Got

Markiehoe wrote: In another video which I can not find the guy pointed out how many times a competent marksman could have shot the Rhino and ended the threat.
Watch this video and see for yourself how ridiculous this situation was just so the film maker could show off that Hollywood Star Paul Giamatti was the Rhino.


I try not to define my experience by the things I hate, but I HATE that scene.

Because it's good. Yes, the crowd should be scattering (though I sort of perversely like the idea of a New York so inured to the presence of superpowered brawls that they become flash mob spectator events). Yes, Rhino deserved a headshot punking - which I excuse because his exposure is for the same reason every enclosed helmet since The Abyss has the damn lights pointing inward to illuminate the actors face... utterly blinding them to their environment. People don't often pause to appreciate the sheer genius of every Ironman shot of Robert Downy Jr.s face in complete darkness as an alternative to a truly stupid helmet redesign for the sake of audience empathy and identification.

No... I HATE that scene because clearly they knew exactly how to make a good-bordering-on-amazing Spiderman movie and made me sit through nearly two hours of pigshit-on-film to get one tiny nugget of greatness as a pat on the head for not standing up and walking out the way I should have.
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11 May 2018 03:20 #59447 by shadar
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AuGoose wrote: Just remember, the second most common power is "Trivialize Guns".

Bullet-proof/Invulnerability
Spider sense/hyper-reflexes/speed force
Regeneration
Phasing/Intangibility
An adamantium shield/cutting bullets out of the air
Magnetic or Telekinetic catch/melt out of the air (spoilers: a couple of molten droplets of brass and lead moving at 2100fps will still kill you dead)

Dodge it, soak it, deflect it. Bullets don't work. It's always going to devolve into fisticuffs and energy beams. Almost every single melee hero there is makes shooting at them pointless AS A GIVEN. I often suspect its to try and head off the fridge logic that every single character that doesn't have offensive powers should be carrying a gun. Though certainly some of it comes from gunfire being visually uninteresting in sequential art.



Your comments about bullets got me thinking... yes, those gunfire scenes aren't usually very dramatic compared to punching, and crashing and friggin' eye beams. But that's partially because bullet scenes are hard to do WELL, so they usually are done poorly and are just dull.

But what if the target was getting knocked around by the bullets, hair flying, holes tearing in clothing along with some fabric confetti. And the richocets are all different, based on the angle they strike and how hard the part of the body they hit. Some ping away and others blunt to ground at the shooter's feet. And while the bullets don't really injure her, maybe they hurt like hell, which leads to interesting factial expressions and movements, perhaps trying to stop some of them with her hands.. Perhaps an automatic weapon pulverizes her into a corner, clothing half shot away, head spinning from the impacts, entire body in agony, unable to get up, or covering her head with her arms -- until the poor bastard has to reload.

Then it's a race between her shaking it off and flying over to tackle the shooter before he can fire again, and then bending his rifle in half or crushing his pistol, finger still in the trigger guard, mangled into the crushed steel. Probably would cause her to break her "Don't punch people in the face when you're pissed" rule.

My point is, it could be done dramatically and well, but audiences prefer super Kung Fu and eye beams and good bullet scenes are hard to do.

Shadar

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11 May 2018 17:24 #59449 by Woodclaw
Replied by Woodclaw on topic That Weird Powers That I've Never Got

AuGoose wrote: Just remember, the second most common power is "Trivialize Guns".

Bullet-proof/Invulnerability
Spider sense/hyper-reflexes/speed force
Regeneration
Phasing/Intangibility
An adamantium shield/cutting bullets out of the air
Magnetic or Telekinetic catch/melt out of the air (spoilers: a couple of molten droplets of brass and lead moving at 2100fps will still kill you dead)

Dodge it, soak it, deflect it. Bullets don't work. It's always going to devolve into fisticuffs and energy beams. Almost every single melee hero there is makes shooting at them pointless AS A GIVEN. I often suspect its to try and head off the fridge logic that every single character that doesn't have offensive powers should be carrying a gun. Though certainly some of it comes from gunfire being visually uninteresting in sequential art.


One of my favorite moments in Captain America First Avenger (which I consider a so-so movie) is during the "battle montage" and Cap is wielding a pistol and some grenades. It's pretty clear that they're not his primary weapon, but it was a nice touch.

Aside from that I believ it's true that close combat is much more dynamic and effective in terms of visual, simply because of how visceral it looks. It doesn't help that for decades the Comics Code authority enforced a number of crazy regulations that made drawing any firefight ridicolous (e.g. no explicit depiction of blood, no exit wounds because they suggest anal penetration ... WTF). As a result the comic book industry as a whole has become inured to the idea that firearms just don't matter, unless we are talking about specific character (like Deathstroke or the Punisher).

Shadar wrote: Your comments about bullets got me thinking... yes, those gunfire scenes aren't usually very dramatic compared to punching, and crashing and friggin' eye beams. But that's partially because bullet scenes are hard to do WELL, so they usually are done poorly and are just dull.

But what if the target was getting knocked around by the bullets, hair flying, holes tearing in clothing along with some fabric confetti. And the richocets are all different, based on the angle they strike and how hard the part of the body they hit. Some ping away and others blunt to ground at the shooter's feet. And while the bullets don't really injure her, maybe they hurt like hell, which leads to interesting factial expressions and movements, perhaps trying to stop some of them with her hands.. Perhaps an automatic weapon pulverizes her into a corner, clothing half shot away, head spinning from the impacts, entire body in agony, unable to get up, or covering her head with her arms -- until the poor bastard has to reload.

Then it's a race between her shaking it off and flying over to tackle the shooter before he can fire again, and then bending his rifle in half or crushing his pistol, finger still in the trigger guard, mangled into the crushed steel. Probably would cause her to break her "Don't punch people in the face when you're pissed" rule.

My point is, it could be done dramatically and well, but audiences prefer super Kung Fu and eye beams and good bullet scenes are hard to do.

Shadar


My personal go-to movie to show brutal and drammatic firefights is the 2012 Dredd with Karl Urban. Heck if you look close enough you can see bullets ricocheting from the Judges armors.


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11 May 2018 22:24 #59450 by shadar
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The Judge Dred video was a far better gunfire scene than most, but given this is in the future, and firearms, medical stuff, etc. are advanced, their bulky armor suits should freakin’ work.

Reminded me of Star Wars where the Storm Trooper armor doesn’t work. Why wear something that slows you down and restricts movement when it doesn’t protect you?

Of course, the real purpose was to sell cool-looking toys.

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11 May 2018 23:02 #59451 by Monty
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AuGoose wrote: Just remember, the second most common power is "Trivialize Guns".

Bullet-proof/Invulnerability
Spider sense/hyper-reflexes/speed force
Regeneration
Phasing/Intangibility
An adamantium shield/cutting bullets out of the air
Magnetic or Telekinetic catch/melt out of the air (spoilers: a couple of molten droplets of brass and lead moving at 2100fps will still kill you dead)

Dodge it, soak it, deflect it. Bullets don't work. It's always going to devolve into fisticuffs and energy beams. Almost every single melee hero there is makes shooting at them pointless AS A GIVEN. I often suspect its to try and head off the fridge logic that every single character that doesn't have offensive powers should be carrying a gun. Though certainly some of it comes from gunfire being visually uninteresting in sequential art.


I agree with the no reaction to bullets not quite fitting, but I thought this scene from Super-Ex worked with Jenny grimacing and feeling some backlash from an onslaught of shots, albeit,from a very powerful sub-machine gun Not the best film, but it had it's moments...

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12 May 2018 03:08 #59453 by willow
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Monty wrote:
I agree with the no reaction to bullets not quite fitting, but I thought this scene from Super-Ex worked with Jenny grimacing and feeling some backlash from an onslaught of shots, albeit,from a very powerful sub-machine gun Not the best film, but it had it's moments...


Yeah, the film was a missed opportunity at some good superhero parody wrapped around a romantic comedy. The world should have been filled with superheroes (and supervillains) that everyone adores like your standard DC comic. However, the main character quickly learns that G-Girl and the other supers all have their quirks and insecurities when the cameras are not looking at them saving the world. Or even funnier, it is right in front of their eyes but everyone is so enamored with these super-powered heroes that they gloss over the bad parts. Maybe even add in a superhero-version of TMZ, paparazzi, and tabloid press for even more humor.

As the movie stands, it is one of those "Eh, it's ok but not memorable beyond the unique shtick of a super-powered crazy ex-girlfriend."
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