The LaPorte Caves - Revised

The conflict between Julia and Howard has been made public. Howard will be indifferent to Julia to express his dissatisfaction. Julia may be trying to change Howard's attitude, including the use of power, but at best she can only make Howard appear submissive.  I like this novel very much

Monty wrote: Brilliant. I've read up to the point, so far, where Julia says "and Howard wants me to give it all up" This is astonishingly good writing.

Does he want her to give it up, though? Maybe the thing that finally gets Julia to open her eyes is for Howard to point out that of all the times he begged Julia to take him back to Kentucky, he never asked her to stay there.

Pepper wrote: Does he want her to give it up, though? Maybe the thing that finally gets Julia to open her eyes is for Howard to point out that of all the times he begged Julia to take him back to Kentucky, he never asked her to stay there.

The biggest secret Howard is holding back on is not Mindy's threats; he's not in love with Julia.  The loss of being in love is beyond the loss of physical appeal.

If Julia still shows off her strength and intelligence in front of Howard, it is hard for her to win back his love. She can force Howard to stay, but he has no advantage over the other men here. Why should Julia like him for so long? If Julia liked to show off her power, she could return to earth and use it. Hopefully Julia will understand that in future chapters. In addition, could we add some scenes in the following chapters in which Julia used her power to attack other men who had no master in front of Howard, so as to warn Howard at the same time?
So many people here to leave a message, everyone very recognized your work. This is a very wonderful novel, no matter how the novel develops, I will pay attention to him. Thank you for your creation!

mpac00 wrote: The biggest secret Howard is holding back on is not Mindy's threats; he's not in love with Julia.  The loss of being in love is beyond the loss of physical appeal.

I think Howard's biggest secret is that he never really loved Julia; he always just saw her as a damsel in distress that he could feel good about rescuing, and now that he can't rescue her anymore, he wants out.

grungykitten wrote:

mpac00 wrote: The biggest secret Howard is holding back on is not Mindy's threats; he's not in love with Julia.  The loss of being in love is beyond the loss of physical appeal.

I think Howard's biggest secret is that he never really loved Julia; he always just saw her as a damsel in distress that he could feel good about rescuing, and now that he can't rescue her anymore, he wants out.

Maybe.

I believe the 'he never really loved Julia' sentiment is right out of the Team Julia playbook.

I do not think circes has written anything regarding what was Howard's reason for falling for Julia. So far only Julia's narrative about Howard requiring a 'damsel-in-distress' to have a meaningful relationship has been presented.

Yes, Howard is a jerk at times, and incredibly, perhaps even willfully, oblivious to the Weald reality. Still that is long way from the self-centered, not-able-to-see-past her unearned superiority twit that Julia has become.

circes_cup wrote:

Woodclaw wrote:

circes_cup wrote: Yes, thank you Woodclaw for squeezing it in!

No problem, but for the foreseeable future (and this is something for all the writers), please don't drop your story at the last possible minute. For real, Crices uploaded it at 00.59 AM my time, usually I schedule the stories to go online ar 1.00 AM my time

If you don’t want to publish it this week, then don’t.  I submit my stories when they are done and am not going to apologize for the timing of the submittal.  Publish it in 2021 for all I care.

Caught you in a bad mood, did he?  That could've been handled better.  Note the cutesy emoji?  It wasn't meant as a rebuke.  It was meant as a pleasantly-delivered heads-up for ALL writers.  I'm not exactly sure why a snippy rejoinder was called for.  Everyone who reads your work acknowledges that you're a good writer.  It was a gentle reminder from an admin.  Nothing more.

Well 11 is out. I've skimmed it, read some sections in more details. Circes may have a problem interspersing the original into Revised.
He's added a lot of content with Revised that takes it slightly different road. I made a comment I can't swallow the
crowbar scene in Revised. Seems a bit of a back peddle from their
relationship. Julia has already nearly won dominance. Plus she's
already hinted at staying for awhile. In the original, the crowbar
scene is where we're introduced to a large degree both of these aspects.

I also don't know where Circes can take these two characters. Julia
hinted at making things right for him in Earth, but how?  At this point,
the moment Howard sets foot in Earth he's bolting.  As said previously, their relationship is beyond salvageable. Next up is the swamp
scene then Julia's job and her distracting Howard with flash cards.
That diversion won't work in Revised. The physical threat with Howard
did not exist in the Original. Left alone in Ruth's house reading flash
cards around Mindy? Yeah right.

I guess that's what keeps me reading, trying to see where Circes is going.  So far he's really taking us on a ride, and if wasn't for his writing skill and leaving us guessing, I would have abandoned the story a while ago.  I don't find the main characters likeable, there's no one to really root for.  I sympathise with Howard, but I don't know if I can root for him.  The story is, well, depressing, at least aggravating.  But I keep reading it to enjoy the story telling and to see what rabbit Circes pulls out.

mpac00 wrote: Well 11 is out. I've skimmed it, read some sections in more details. Circes may have a problem interspersing the original into Revised.
He's added a lot of content with Revised that takes it slightly different road. I made a comment I can't swallow the
crowbar scene in Revised. Seems a bit of a back peddle from their
relationship. Julia has already nearly won dominance. Plus she's
already hinted at staying for awhile. In the original, the crowbar
scene is where we're introduced to a large degree both of these aspects.

I also don't know where Circes can take these two characters. Julia
hinted at making things right for him in Earth, but how?  At this point,
the moment Howard sets foot in Earth he's bolting.  As said previously, their relationship is beyond salvageable. Next up is the swamp
scene then Julia's job and her distracting Howard with flash cards.
That diversion won't work in Revised. The physical threat with Howard
did not exist in the Original. Left alone in Ruth's house reading flash
cards around Mindy? Yeah right.

I guess that's what keeps me reading, trying to see where Circes is going.  So far he's really taking us on a ride, and if wasn't for his writing skill and leaving us guessing, I would have abandoned the story a while ago.  I don't find the main characters likeable, there's no one to really root for.  I sympathise with Howard, but I don't know if I can root for him.  The story is, well, depressing, at least aggravating.  But I keep reading it to enjoy the story telling and to see what rabbit Circes pulls out.

Without Howard, there is no real story. Taking him out the equation kills things, and Circes realises this. He is playing Julia's hand brilliantly with human nature's narcissism ruling over Julia with her new fantastic power.
It is a very well written, very well thought out story. Keep going Circes!

I don't remember if I saw this in the original, or the revised. But Howard's heart was won over by Julia because she is the first girlfriend he ever had who never tried to take advantage of him. And this motivated Howard to try to give her anything she wanted. She loved him for himself, not what he could give her, and that caused him to love her.

eromacque wrote:

circes_cup wrote:

Woodclaw wrote:

circes_cup wrote: Yes, thank you Woodclaw for squeezing it in!

No problem, but for the foreseeable future (and this is something for all the writers), please don't drop your story at the last possible minute. For real, Crices uploaded it at 00.59 AM my time, usually I schedule the stories to go online ar 1.00 AM my time

If you don’t want to publish it this week, then don’t.  I submit my stories when they are done and am not going to apologize for the timing of the submittal.  Publish it in 2021 for all I care.

Caught you in a bad mood, did he?  That could've been handled better.  Note the cutesy emoji?  It wasn't meant as a rebuke.  It was meant as a pleasantly-delivered heads-up for ALL writers.  I'm not exactly sure why a snippy rejoinder was called for.  Everyone who reads your work acknowledges that you're a good writer.  It was a gentle reminder from an admin.  Nothing more.

Yes, the tone of my message was unnecessary and I apologize.  A better way of phrasing my post would be to say that the admins are at liberty to set whatever deadlines they want to set.  I submit my chapters whenever they are ready, and I won’t complain if a submittal has to wait a week because it missed a cutoff.  Hope that handles the matter a little bit better.

Uh ... what is the deadline?

There's a duality of men, the claimed and non-claimed.   The claimed live in slavery, no self worth, no self identity.   They're to constantly
stroke the women's ego, remind everyone involved of the women's vast
superiority.   (And to do menial labor jobs the women don't want to
do.)  Then you have non-claimed men.  These men have their own lives,
their own accomplishments, albeit a very low quality of life since the
women hoard everything and don't leave much resources to the men.   But
these men sometimes cross over and become subservient much like the men
on the boat.  The irony is those that do not want the subservient
lifestyle are called malcontents.  They begrudgingly acknowledge the women's
superiority, but do not wish to partake in stroking the women's egos.

Thanks evveryone for all the enthusiastic discussion of the story.  I don’t think I’ve ever seen 70+ comments on a single chapter!  Things start looking up for Howard, so I hope those of you that are discouraged on his behalf hang in there.

There will be no updates to LPC this weekend.  If everything goes well, the next posting will occur the weekend of April 18-19, and that will a 17,000-word cluster of three chaters.  

After that, we will have a haitus of at least a few weeks as I work out the subsequent material.  The interconnections between the chapters require me to edit chapters in groups rather than one at time: the group the follows the April-18-19 posting is a pretty large editing job that will take a few weeks.

If you want to help with the process, shoot me a note tellng me which aspect or scene of the story resonaates best with you so far.  That might help me understand which elements of the story are most valuable and deserve to be better drawn out.

Thanks again, all!

I guess what I'd like to see is some acknowledgement from Julia that she has seriously undone the expectations she set with Howard, and broken promises to him. From Chapter 5:

"But it's not going to be like that with us, Howard. I’ll remain exclusive to you, just like we were on earth. We'll be equal partners,
just like we were on Earth. But you need to consent. Deciding whether or not to
accept a Claim is one of the few rights you have here: I can’t just make the
decision on my own."

She's made it clear to him now that they are not equal partners, and that she will not remain exclusive to him. Two expectations set and denied. Two promises made and broken. I think he at least deserves to hear her admit that she has gone back on her word, and has given him good reason not to trust her and good reason to question her integrity.

circes_cup wrote: Thanks evveryone for all the enthusiastic discussion of the story.  I don’t think I’ve ever seen 70+ comments on a single chapter!  Things start looking up for Howard, so I hope those of you that are discouraged on his behalf hang in there.

There will be no updates to LPC this weekend.  If everything goes well, the next posting will occur the weekend of April 18-19, and that will a 17,000-word cluster of three chaters.  

After that, we will have a haitus of at least a few weeks as I work out the subsequent material.  The interconnections between the chapters require me to edit chapters in groups rather than one at time: the group the follows the April-18-19 posting is a pretty large editing job that will take a few weeks.

If you want to help with the process, shoot me a note tellng me which aspect or scene of the story resonaates best with you so far.  That might help me understand which elements of the story are most valuable and deserve to be better drawn out.

Thanks again, all!

Thanks for the update!

I think the one thing I would make sure gets addressed soon is Julia's lack of realization of what her abilities really mean in the context of relationships on Earth and not in the Weald. There have been times when the story makes it seem like she acknowledges how men are treated second class in every aspect of life, and not just because women have "natural" superiority. For example, in chapter 11, she knows the car that Howard runs to barely works, because it was "made for men." Why would a better made car be a bad thing? Why would women see it as unnecessary to provide the safest mode of transportation possible for their Claimed to do the "menial" tasks like grocery shopping? Women are already thousands of times more powerful than any car they could create, so there shouldn't be any reason why it would be so poorly made, unless women really just don't care about helping protect the men. It's not even like a man could design a better car for himself; it's already been stated that women hold all executive positions, as well as own all patents and earn all the money. It's not even in the women's best interests to NOT have a better designed car; if it was more efficient, the men could spend more time serving his woman instead of fighting a crappy engine. It wasn't the focus of the chapter for Julia to ponder these issues, obviously, but she has made similar observations before, like how the male section of the gym is not designed for their optimal training. There is no threat to female superiority if there were better male facilities; it would just make it more fulfilling for them to be able to have the opportunity to get in shape, maybe to attract a female and join a harem. Again, it would ironically be in the women's best interests to provide these things, without having to resort to schemes of fake mind control gas to weed out "malcontents," the irony being in using that word especially, since that implies that she knows they aren't happy with their lives, but she doesn't take the next logical thought into WHY they're discontent, she just accepts the party line of "they want their abilities to matter." To not even think twice about that one statement Ruth made is just mind boggling. I think the longer you go without her becoming a little less naive, the more it strains the suspension of disbelief. Now, you may have already thought of this, and maybe it's because Julia has been so blue balled for the last week (?), that she just hasn't thought about these things more than just observing them.

To go back to the car example, it could also tie into Mindy's backstory, which I think is probably one of the most interesting ideas you've started to explore. She has the potential to be a much more nuanced character; a girl (she's literally only a teen), who lost her father when she was young because of the complacency women take in providing for their men, which leads to her misguided feelings of anger at them simply because they aren't invulnerable like she is, and if they were, her daddy would still be there. I think shifting the focus away from her being the antagonist of the story into a more sympathetic ally for Howard, would be very interesting. The Weald society itself is enough of an antagonist; exploring how Julia and Howard could bring balance to the sexes, but this would have to be done TOGETHER, not just as a "Julia has all the answers" deus ex machina plot device. A new antagonist could be introduced, like some kind of hard line feminist that has a lot of authority, and is part of the reason men, and subsequently, the entire Weald, have stagnated in terms of their scientific advancements, and just continue the "banalities of suburban life." Mindy could become an asset to help change things, because deep down she knows that the men are not a willing subclass, that they have literally been bred to be subservient and are therefore not worth the extra effort to protect, and the loss of her father has hammered that home.

One other thing I want to mention is how you've incorporated Amanda into the story. Even though she has been a somewhat minor character up to know, she's been there for the major pivotal points in Julia and Howard's relationship; she seduced Howard when they first arrived, she rescued him from the drug gang, and she exposed the truth of what Howard was doing to Julia. I like how you wrote that she appears somewhat bashful and shy when she asked Julia to not be too mad at him; it hints that she's crushing on him pretty hard for a Weald woman. I would caution though, against having Howard sleep with her out of some kind of revenge against Julia. Not that he would have any say in it, obviously, but I think if you have him rub it in Julia's face that he slept with her again, he loses some of the moral high ground. So far, even though he isn't perfect (aka resorting to the drug deal), you've done a great job of portraying him as an average guy reacting to a world of Amazons that rule unquestioningly, and how he deals with their corrupting influence on his girlfriend. Everything he's done has been pretty reasonable, with the exception of him not telling Julia about Mindy's harassment. Given how they've interacted since arriving, it's likely that she wouldn't believe him anyway, but it's really the only other thing I can think of that he's done that is a bit ridiculous.

The only other thing I hope you incorporate is somehow leveling the playing field. I think a deeper plot of the Weald being out of balance because of the overconsumption of the Diana fruit, and how the Amazons will have to deal with being more "normal" compared to the men, could offer a lot of opportunity for narratives that still explore the power differential between the men and women. This ties into my thoughts of Mindy's character, and possibly even Ruth, if she realizes how the loss of Mindy's father has affected her.

I'll offer one last thought, since you asked what resonated. The indifference of Julia to Howard's needs, to the staggering difference in their abilities, to telling him just to get over it and that this is for his own good; these type of scenes are going to trigger people very emotionally, because everyone has felt that indifference before. You've done a great job writing it so it infuriates readers sometimes, myself included, because of all the obvious twisting of facts, ignoring comments, or gaslighting Julia does to validate her reasoning for staying. There is still plenty of opportunity to continue that indefinitely, but I would love to see how you write how they overcome that, without Howard becoming a servant to Julia. We're a long way off from a conclusion (I assume), so I don't expect it to wrap up in the next couple of chapters, I'm just commenting that you're doing a good job tweaking at the frustrations everyone feels when they're being dismissed, and the desire we all have for the kind of power Julia has.

Torque, I think you've discovered a way for Howard to regain his sense of usefulness. He knows about air bags and  anti-lock brake systems. He may not be able to engineer them himself, but he could become an advocate for introducing technologies like that into The Weald. Ruth could be his sponsor, put him to work identifying earth innovations that would make life better for the men of The Weald.

In the old version of the story Ruth's company is trying to develop and sell a video game for men, with the main attraction that it is developed by men, and so men will ask their women to purchase it for them. If they would purchase a video game for their men, then why not purchase a safer car for them?

This would give Howard a reason to stay, and provide a path forward for him and Julia.

I read CC's PM (done) solicitation as what do you like, which for me is; (1) the unknowing (towing Howard like a toy during an effortless backstroke) OR overt (tree uprooting, reading ability comparisons) power imbalance demonstrations, (2) the erotic interactions. Not what is disliked, nor what should be changed. There's plenty of that in the chapter comments.

RevTekkX wrote: I read CC's PM (done) solicitation as what do you like, which for me is; (1) the unknowing (being towed like a toy during an effortless backstroke) OR overt (tree uprooting, reading abilities) power imbalance demonstrations, (2) the erotic interactions. Not what is disliked, nor what should be changed. There's plenty of that in the chapter comments.

I agree. I particularly liked the scenes when Julia goes for a stroll, ends up in a bar with men, and helps out bemused, struggling guys with her power. ('Why would she possibly want to help US for?', they would be thinking.)
It showed Julia's good human nature at heart, that she isn't really a bad person at all. Julia may be Nourished, but that doesn't mean she is one of the local Nourished, who would no doubt ignore the guy's struggles. It would be good to see more of this type of scenario!

There's lots to like about your story, circes. If I had to list some personal highlights:
- I like the strength feats, wheter casual and unaware or deliberate. That's an obvious one I believe, but I wanted to mention it anyway. 
- I love Mindy's backstory and the way she's more than just a mindless villain, I hope you explore this some more
- I also really like the interactions between Howard and Amanda and the way she's so obviously crushing on him. Makes you realize that, despite their incredible bodies, Amanda is still very much a teen and not some sort of deity. Same for the other women.
- I love it when we see more about life in the Weald in general. How their society works, how other women treat their men, what rules there are, stuff like that. Just some nice worldbuilding (allthough it's not very nice at all in most cases)

Now, I guess you know my frustrations and gripes already, so I'm not going to bother you with it on here as well  
I just hope you don't turn Howard in yet another submissive slave, other than that, I'm all game!

Thank you for all the hard work that goes into this, I can only imagine how much time, effort and talent are needed to create a story like this.
And it's really nice to see the amount of discussion and passion around it as well. Awesome stuff all around dude!

RevTekkX wrote: I read CC's PM (done) solicitation as what do you like, which for me is; (1) the unknowing (being towed like a toy during an effortless backstroke) OR overt (tree uprooting, reading ability comparisons) power imbalance demonstrations, (2) the erotic interactions. Not what is disliked, nor what should be changed. There's plenty of that in the chapter comments.

Fair. I tend to get long winded to make sure I'm being clear.

For me, I love the actual transformation, the act of growing and getting bigger and stronger. The end result of being super strong is hot and fun, but the process of becoming that is my favorite part. It would be cool to have a description of how their muscles are physically getting a little bigger at their workouts. The size is capped, but describing how they are actually a little smaller before "maxing out" and then growing is very appealing.

RevTekkX wrote: I read CC's PM (done) solicitation as what do you like, which for me is; (1) the unknowing (being towed like a toy during an effortless backstroke) OR overt (tree uprooting, reading abilities) power imbalance demonstrations, (2) the erotic interactions. Not what is disliked, nor what should be changed. There's plenty of that in the chapter comments.

Thanks.  This was indeed what I was getting at.  

Monty wrote: I agree. I particularly liked the scenes when Julia goes for a stroll, ends up in a bar with men, and helps out bemused, struggling guys with her power. ('Why would she possibly want to help US for?', they would be thinking.)It showed Julia's good human nature at heart, that she isn't really a bad person at all. Julia may be Nourished, but that doesn't mean she is one of the local Nourished, who would no doubt ignore the guy's struggles. It would be good to see more of this type of scenario!

Thanks.   I think the corrupting influence of power can go a long way to explaining how a person can be bad and good at the same time.

Victoria Nike wrote: There's lots to like about your story, circes. If I had to list some personal highlights:- I like the strength feats, wheter casual and unaware or deliberate. That's an obvious one I believe, but I wanted to mention it anyway.  - I love Mindy's backstory and the way she's more than just a mindless villain, I hope you explore this some more

Yes, I though Mindy’s character was detaching a bit from reality and wanted to ground it in the revised version.  Glad you liked it.

Victoria Nike wrote: - I also really like the interactions between Howard and Amanda and the way she's so obviously crushing on him. Makes you realize that, despite their incredible bodies, Amanda is still very much a teen and not some sort of deity. Same for the other women.- I love it when we see more about life in the Weald in general. How their society works, how other women treat their men, what rules there are, stuff like that. Just some nice worldbuilding (allthough it's not very nice at all in most cases)

Thanks for these points.  Maybe someday I’ll do someday I’ll do a story with even more world-building.  At the end of the day, this story was really supposed to be a character-driven story, so much of the Tolkien-esque world-building has been left out.  I’m glad to know there is interest in that.

Torque wrote: For me, I love the actual transformation, the act of growing and getting bigger and stronger. The end result of being super strong is hot and fun, but the process of becoming that is my favorite part. It would be cool to have a description of how their muscles are physically getting a little bigger at their workouts. The size is capped, but describing how they are actually a little smaller before "maxing out" and then growing is very appealing.

Funny, the growth sequence is the one thing that the story does not handle in detail.  However, there is a second growth sequence coming up much later in the story that you may enjoy.
——-

Thanks again for the comments guys.  It’s helpful to know what everyone enjoys because it gives me a sense of which passages are likely to be interesting to you and which might be wasted effort.  If you disargee with anything I said here, no need to debate it right now.  If the story is any good, it will explain itself!

anonxyzus wrote: Torque, I think you've discovered a way for Howard to regain his sense of usefulness. He knows about air bags and  anti-lock brake systems. He may not be able to engineer them himself, but he could become an advocate for introducing technologies like that into The Weald. Ruth could be his sponsor, put him to work identifying earth innovations that would make life better for the men of The Weald.

In the old version of the story Ruth's company is trying to develop and sell a video game for men, with the main attraction that it is developed by men, and so men will ask their women to purchase it for them. If they would purchase a video game for their men, then why not purchase a safer car for them?

This would give Howard a reason to stay, and provide a path forward for him and Julia.

I love this idea!  Thanks for sharing.    It would be a great way for Howard to feel useful.  Not sure the women of the Weald care enough about men to bother.  

They may not care enough about men to bother, but they may care enough about the money to be made.