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Season 1 x 06 Spoilers and Discussions Red Faced

03 Dec 2015 04:36 #45474 by Random321
Replied by Random321 on topic Season 1 x 06 Spoilers and Discussions Red Faced

YAGS wrote: We'll never know, because it lasted all of 3 seconds before Kara decimated him, eliminating room for a sequel to the episode. I was half expecting Morrow's consciousness to end up in the robot body, given that he was mentally linked to RT when he died.

Given that Red Tornado is usually a good guy in the comics, and used to be in the Justice League, I was really hoping they'd treat him as more than just a villain of the week. It would have been cool for the robot to get its own personality and realize it didn't want to fight Supergirl any more. They could have kept it around and have it make guest appearances later.

Another dumb point that nobody's mentioned yet: How did Maxwell Lord know from looking at RT's arm that it was a drone controlled from the outside, not containing its own internal processor? That makes no sense.


Regarding the quick death of RT: Like I said - no body no death. I bet his head is recovered and he'll be back. As a hero, maybe not yet...

On the Maxwell Lord RT Arm thing: I thought it was poorly explained too. However, didn't Maxwell say he found an advanced GPS system in the RT arm or something in the arm indicating RT was remotely managed? Now, my car has GPS, and that doesn't mean it is or is not remotely managed, so maybe they should have said something about a data link/transmitter system.

My question: Where did the gun that SG shot RT with? Did I miss a setup in the episode - or did it just appear?

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03 Dec 2015 05:06 #45475 by YAGS
One other thing that bugged me: Red Tornado grew a new arm, and nobody mentioned it. After Supergirl froze off his original arm, they still had it as evidence after he flew off. When RT attacked General Lane and his daughter, he had a replacement arm. This makes perfect sense in the context of him having been repaired by his maker, but the fact that none of the characters mentioned it, or thought it was a clue, is kinda stupid. THAT should have been the clue to make them realize his maker was repairing him, not a hint from Maxwell Lord that didn't make any sense.
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03 Dec 2015 06:55 #45476 by shadar
I found the "absolute zero freeze breath" thing to be idiotic, even for a superhuman show.. Cooling something I get, but absolute zero? Just by exhaling ordinary air? Do the writers understand what absolute zero means?

Strength, flight, invulnerability, x-ray vision, super-hearing, heat vision... all OK in the context of the show given there are alien tweaks and DNA behind all that. But blowing air is just physics of the ordinary kind. And where does all that air come from? Her liver?

Even comic book shows have to have some limits. Or we should just call it magic (e.g. anything you can imagine) and be done with it. Insulting.

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03 Dec 2015 08:10 - 03 Dec 2015 08:11 #45477 by TwiceOnThursdays
Replied by TwiceOnThursdays on topic Season 1 x 06 Spoilers and Discussions Red Faced

shadar wrote: I found the "absolute zero freeze breath" thing to be idiotic, even for a superhuman show.. Cooling something I get, but absolute zero? Just by exhaling ordinary air? Do the writers understand what absolute zero means?

Strength, flight, invulnerability, x-ray vision, super-hearing, heat vision... all OK in the context of the show given there are alien tweaks and DNA behind all that. But blowing air is just physics of the ordinary kind. And where does all that air come from? Her liver?

Even comic book shows have to have some limits. Or we should just call it magic (e.g. anything you can imagine) and be done with it. Insulting.


Rolls Dice. Fails ST vs Pedantic Physics lecture.

Moving air (no matter the speed) can not cool something below the ambient temp. It can remove excess heat, and move something towards the ambient temperature faster.

If the temperature is zero degrees, and the wind chill is -30, an exposed steel beam in the wind will be ... zero degrees. It will NEVER be -30. However if you had two beams, and they were 50 degrees and you set them out, one blocked from the wind, and the other exposed, the exposed one would drop to zero faster.

There NO SPEED of wind that will take a glass of water sitting at room temperture and freeze it (exception: room is freezing, and water was above freezing when you put it in the room, but it would have frozen w/o any wind, just done so slower). You could theoretically set up some vortex to reduce/increase the pressure and that can be used to induce temperature change, but that's not from simply blowing wind really fast. Or I guess if air moved fast enough it could start to heat things up due to friction (this is probably really damn fast, like a hurricane is a slowpoke fast, and i'm too lazy to google around to figure it out).

I've always taken "freeze breath" to be the stupidest power of Superman's primary powers (I'm ignoring Super Hypnotism, Ventriloquism ). Forget trying to figure out how eyes can project energy, which is pretty non-sensical, freeze breath is just idiotic. Is there some special freezing organ in the Kryptonian Lungs?

In the Ultima stories I explained away heat vision and freeze breath as both being Pyro/Cryokinesis -- or rather telekinetically speeding up/slowing down molecules. That Ultimo presented them as "heat vision" and "Freeze breath" was a limitation because he misunderstood his powers. It followed that flight was telekinetic in nature too, as was some of the invulnerability and strength. Honestly Kryptonians have to be some giant genetic engineering feat as nothing else explains the incredible series of unrelated (and non-useful on Krypton) mutations that would be needed for their powers. There is a zero percent chance that Kryptonian powers were developed via natural selection. I don't know if the Superman comics have directly addressed this -- though there have been some allusions to genetic engineering. Reducing their power set down to mostly applications of Telekinesis means it's a bit less of a leap (but still a pretty big one). They might even use it a bit on Krypton (helping explain how human like beings on a high gravity world aren't short and stocky).

Absolute Zero just makes it worse. It didn't make sense before that, and there wasn't any reason to use Absolute Zero.

What the heck is Red Tornado made out of that Supergirl can't just rip off his arm anyway? Or her heat vision couldn't just melt .. that's some pretty advanced materials there. OTH he can make Tornados and that doesn't make sense (that's a "his powers are a given, just go with it.")

Is it ironic that Red Tornado, the master of wind, got his arm frozen and chopped off by super-wind?

I'd much rather have had Supergirl use her heat vision to super-heat Red Tornado, and then hit him with Super Breath, cooling him down so rapidly he breaks apart. He's also probably made of different materials and they would expand and contract at different rates, helping with the destruction.
Last edit: 03 Dec 2015 08:11 by TwiceOnThursdays. Reason: fixing bolding formatting that I messed up.

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03 Dec 2015 11:57 #45480 by five_red
In the spirit of true fandom pedantry, let me over-analyse the whole situation, reach for a handful of pseudo-science, and throw in a massive dose of special pleading for good measure...

There is a plausible explanation for all of Kara's superpowers, except the freezy-breath thing. It has been hinted at in the comicbooks since the 1980s. Here's how the hypothesis works: let's imagine that Kryptonians only really have one superpower: a solar powered energy field around their body that they have very precise mental control over. Additionally, let's assume that said aura has some gravity controlling properties, and that Kryptonians can voluntarily extend this aura around any object they are touching. Now let's consider each superpower in turn:
  • Flying: Flight is just using the field's gravity defying properties on themselves, and anything they touch.
  • Invulnerability:Kryptonian skin isn't really rock-solid, it's the aura deflecting the bullets. This also explains why a Kryptonian's skin can still be soft to the touch, like humans, when necessary.
  • Strength (lifting): Like flight, this isn't about muscle strength, but rather the aura's gravity controlling properties. This explains how Kara was able to manoeuvre the plane in 1x01 and hold up the building in 1x04.
  • Strength (punching, throwing, etc.): There's less opportunity to use the gravity control properties of the aura when Kara only briefly touches an object or let's it go, so this relies more on muscle strength and only partially on the aura. This explains why Kara can lift a plane, but doesn't seem to be able to punch villains like Reactron (1x03) into the next city.
  • Telescopic vision: Okay, this is a bit of a stretch, but what if the field is so sensitive that Kara can shape it to form lenses that distort the light before it enters her eyes?
  • X-Ray vision: Like telescopic vision, except the aura is shifting the x-rays into the visible parts of the spectrum before they enter Kara's eyes. (Yeah, I know this is stretching things a little!)
  • Heat vision: Going totally out on a limb here, but... maybe Kara has such fine-tuned control of the aura that she can channel her body's solar energy outwards? Maybe the aura is sucking the power from Kara's solar-charged body, and the most obvious orifice to use is her eyes (for targeting.)
  • Freezy breath: This is where I give up. I guess the aura could be sucking up and blasting out all the air immediately around Kara's body into one jet, but why it comes out of her mouth is a mystery! Perhaps the aura is sucking it up into her arse? As for why air would be colder, not warmer, after having been manipulated in such a way is also unexplainable.

So there you go. Easy-peasy-lemon.... is, erm, not a phrase an adult would use. B)

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03 Dec 2015 14:12 #45483 by lfan
Weighing in late, but as a whole, I rather liked the episode, aside from the the look of RT, as has been mentioned here ad nauseum. Couple of talking points/comments on others commentary:


-- The plausibility of "personality disorder of the week"? When you say it that way, it seems silly, but after thinking about it -- and being married for 20+ years -- I KNOW this is COMPLETELY plausible. While they might be going overboard at times, IMO they are making Kara's personality experence ups and downs like a normal person, triggered by certain events.
-- Gratuitous opening action scene? I like it....while its shown to basically just be shown, I like that the producers are giving us some superpowered eye candy. I remember when the show was announced that people were speculating that we'd get 10 maybe 15 minutes of "Supergirl" per episode. This, so far, has been quite the opposite.
-- Freak of the Week. Again, I don't mind it, aside from not explaining Astra's sudden disappearance. I mean even the scenes with the DEO never even mention her (I know she's coming back in Ep 8). The formula of FOTW also goes to show others can be a threat to Supergirl and not just someone using Kryptonite. The FOTW/personal issue/love triangle is actually quite similar to The Flash episodes.
-- Superpower physics and "realism" often take a back seat to production budget realism. Aside from that, it's kinda pointless IMO to nitpick the realism of a show that's based on a girl from another planet who can fly.
-- Episodes 5 and 6, IMO show a significant improvement from the previous ones, both in terms of VFX, acting, and especially directing. It's been said, but the way that final fight scene w/ the heat vision was shot with the slow-mo and her rage and emotions spilling forth was the best scene of the series thus far. Similarly, the fight scene in Livewire was better than its predecessors. To me that is a good sign, and I look forward to the Aunt Astra rematch.
-- Cat is going from one of my least fave characters to one of my faves. Though I think her "moments" with Kara (as well as Cat's personal life) sometimes seem a little forced, I think she lends some great comedic relief. I thought it was funny that she only has pronounced Kara's name right once --- when she was shit-faced off the martinis.
-- General Lane was disappointing, as people have also mentioned. I love Glenn Moreshower, but his lines were dreadful. He seems like he was written straight from the comic pages and rather the stereotypical, hardass General. As someone pointed out, high ranking officers like that (have never met a general but have worked with a few colonels) tend to be calm and cool, not complete hot heads. They are promoted for a reason.
-- Shadar disspelled the fallacy of bosses not losing their tempers with his anecdote, and I agree. I've worked for a Big 6 consultancy and two dotcom startups. If someone threw a chair out a window, it wouldn't make my Top 20 work blowups. :)
-- Alex is turning out to be quite the cute lil badass herself

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03 Dec 2015 16:06 #45485 by shadar
All excellent comments today on Kryptonian powers. I think we are all in agreement that freezy breath is the one power that is outside even the realm of comicbook science.

Agree re: Kryptonian powers not being naturally evolved. There has to be some serious genetic engineering going on. The red sun thing is a control mechanism (can't have a billion superbeings flying around on one planet). Which presumes there was some greater plan for Kryptonians that didn't get realized.

Which is why when I conceived the AU I started with the genetic engineering (and who did it and why) and then tossed in a different control mechanism. The hope was to start with something that would at least pass for pseudo-science and not magic. The hope was to fit it within the potential bounds of potential discoveries in alien genetics that could be overlaid on a human chassis, and future discoveries in multi-dimensional physics.

Some writers of Kryptonian stories have tried to keep things similarly grounded with pseudo-science, and others, like the TV show, unfortunately have gone down the full magical violation of physics path.
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03 Dec 2015 22:05 - 03 Dec 2015 22:06 #45492 by YAGS
One other thing that bugged me about this episode when I saw it, but forgot to mention earlier. Supergirl was wearing earrings. I'm not 100% sure it's the first time she's done that on the show, but it's the first time I noticed it.

Something tells me the DEO wouldn't approve of using kryptonite for piercings. In fact, I think that's a wasted opportunity for next week's episode, when she doesn't have her powers. Getting her ears pierced is something they could have had fun with her doing as something normal in her life that she couldn't do before.
Last edit: 03 Dec 2015 22:06 by YAGS.

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04 Dec 2015 00:21 #45497 by jimbob
She might have already had them from before she had powers on Krypton. If they have earrings there.

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04 Dec 2015 00:52 #45498 by castor
Was thinking to compare this to the New Batman V Superman Trailer.

That trailer is obviously-big explosions citys crumbling, Superman Tossing Batman around a giant CGI monster man at the end....

the kind stuff that this show can't do.

Well it can try

The first couple of episodes-particuarly the second at times felt like they where trying to duplicate that--and it didn't work great, a lot of bad cgi, effects that were done to make her seem to weight more and things like that. Or in the second episode super super speed

But that said-its getting much better at showing stuff here and i think they are working on that-like the interconcected climax which was a good way of cutting from the super slugfest to the alex stuff which still being exciting, and making the super slugfest a mix of tornado effects which where okay and a bit of punching and tossing with a good bit in the middle when he grabs her.

Except the costume is really bad-not horrible, and i like the mix of movement between a robot and a human which works with the TO mmorow stuff, but yeah..not its best effort, and unlike say Arrow they don't have the advantage of working at night

Yeah this is working better and better as an action show.

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04 Dec 2015 05:03 #45500 by ace191
Let's remember a few things here. When Superman started out, he was faster than a speeding bullet, more powerful than a locomotive, able to leap tall buildings in a single bound and bend steel in his bare hands. A .45 travels 900 fps and a .357 mag is 1600 fps. 88 fps is 60 mph so that would put Superman's speed around 600 mph to around Mach 1.5 consistent with Kara.
The Max Power for something like a Big Boy would be 5000 horsepower. An EMD F7 or E8 would be around 1500 to 1800 HP. Let's give him 3000 Horsepower. I would say a tall building would be 300 feet. I would assume that 3000 HP would be enough to bend a crow bar.

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04 Dec 2015 05:25 #45501 by ace191
I give up. 5 out of the last 6 times I have tried to post something I have been timed out.

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04 Dec 2015 16:25 #45506 by elnovo1234
Replied by elnovo1234 on topic Season 1 x 06 Spoilers and Discussions Red Faced
I liked this episode, and i´m agree with five_red with the personal issue of the week... its a minor tiny thing that still annoys me why they dont show kara changing into supergirl i mean for me its a sing of empowerement its like leaving behind this human costume and embracing who she really is, in the wonder woman we had a lot of those great spin TFs...
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04 Dec 2015 16:55 #45507 by Sarge395
Type it offline and copy/paste it. Works for me to get around time out issues.

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04 Dec 2015 18:05 #45509 by fats
I've tweaked the site so the time-out issue should be resolved.

fats

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06 Dec 2015 02:57 #45533 by ace191
Yea! And go Iowa!

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