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Season 1 x 18 Spoilers and Discussions Worlds Finest

29 Mar 2016 05:47 #47033 by YAGS
I wanted to like this episode, but... eh.

The superheroes were too cute. The supervillains were kinda lame and predictable. Which is really a shame, because Siobhan was much more interesting in earlier episodes. And Live Wire got beat in exactly the same, way too easy manner as last time.

I did kinda like the twist that even with another superhero in town, Flash and Supergirl got beat down and had to be rescued by regular humans. But the cliffhanger ending was clearly the best part of the episode.

It's also noteworthy that this episode was missing Alex and Hank entirely, which is a first for this show. And I liked that Lucy stepped into her new role well.

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29 Mar 2016 11:53 - 29 Mar 2016 12:03 #47036 by five_red
Let me be upfront and honest right from the start: I don't like crossover or other gimmick episodes. In the UK, Doctor Who fans coined the term fanwank for this type of fiction, and a more apt term I couldn't imagine.

Even by the usual standards of fanwankery, this episode was flawed. Let me take its problems, as I saw them, one by one:

First: it was too rushed. This was as crammed an episode as the pilot, but unlike the pilot this episode didn't have a strong unfolding storyline to carry you through. It just seemed to lurch haphazardly from one scenario to the next, with minimal explanation as to why specific events were happening. "So, why are they in the CatCo secret office now?", "So, why does James need to visit the DEO now?", "So, why hasn't Livewire just killed Cat Grant yet?", "So, why is Siobhan Smythe dressed like that now?", "So, how does Cat recognise Siobhan Smythe in all that make-up?"

Second: fridge logic overload. Indeed we need a new term, because these errors no longer require a post-show visit to the fridge to spot them -- they're apparent in real time. For example, the DEO is a top ultra high top super top top-ity-top secret organisation... that apparently any and every employee of CatCo is allowed to drop in on whenever they have a few minutes to spare, or figure they might be possessed by an ancient curse. Oh, and feel free to wander around the corridors and peek inside any of the interrogation rooms while you're there. Hell, the wi-fi is probably unprotected, and the petty cash tin is probably kept in a cupboard in the kitchen.

Third: we didn't need two villains. The show was crowded enough as it is without having two bad 'guys'. Neither of them were particularly effective, or presented any kind of a serious threat. Liwewire makes a big deal about wanting to punish Cat Grant, then doesn't. Banshee makes a big deal about wanting to punish Cat Grant and Kara Danvers, then ignores the former... and seemingly totally forgets about the latter in the final part of the story. And after all the pouting and snarling and special effects, this dire threat to National City is taken down with a little sprinkling of water. AGAIN!!! (I mean, forget about Winn's Ghostbusters-style containment field generator, Kara just needs to carry around a 2 litre bottle of Aquafina!)

Fourth: the vomit inducing scene when the people of National City do their schmaltzy 'I'm Spartacus' bit. Seriously, why are all these people hanging around watching as various super-people zap each other anyway? And why are there so many of them in that park to begin with? -- the place is clearly only one city block in size..!! (Aside: go check out my locations page if you want to know where this was filmed!) The whole thing was awkward, and bizarre, and so over the top with sugar coating that it jarred like hell. Consult the first Toby McGuire Spidey movie if you want to see how this kind of scene should be done (eg: with humour, rather than schmaltz.)

Spidey clip

Fifth: more examples of what I'm now going to christen CUPTS -- Convenient Uncharacteristic Personality Transplant Syndrome. It crops up so often in Supergirl, that we need a name for it! Cat Grant is as hard as nails throughout the series, even when confronted by super villains, then starts whimpering about her children for one scene only. Eh?

In conclusion... No doubt this episode will get good ratings -- fanwank always does. And no doubt this episode will have caused fans to flood onto social media claiming to have had multiple orgasms during its screening -- fanwank always does. A-a-a-nd no doubt this episode will be anointed by fanboys as the greatest moment in television history since John Logie Baird proclaimed "hold on, I've got an idea!" -- fanwank always does. But in five years time, nobody will remember it as a good episode. Just like the crossover episodes of Star Trek, Doctor Who, etc. etc. were not regarded well beyond their initial fan buzz. And that's the plus and the minus of fanwank episodes -- they generate huge hype (and ratings), but never deliver any quality. Which pretty much sums up this episode -- all hype, no substance. (Or, to steal another British idiom: "all fur coat and no knickers".) :)

Still, if it helps to strengthen the second season's proposition, then I suppose we can live with it. It's only one episode out of twenty, after all. Fingers crossed for the overnight ratings...


R5

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Last edit: 29 Mar 2016 12:03 by five_red.

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29 Mar 2016 13:12 #47037 by erikphandel
The one bit that threw me off was Silver Banshee punching Kara and she actually felt it. Since when was it established that she had super strength? Anyways, as flawed as this episode was, it's undeniable that Grant and Melissa's chemistry on screen was just perfect. The two character fit each other so well, and I loved seeing them together

I totally ship them and I do not regret it

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29 Mar 2016 13:58 #47039 by Woodclaw

five_red wrote: Fifth: more examples of what I'm now going to christen CUPTS -- Convenient Uncharacteristic Personality Transplant Syndrome. It crops up so often in Supergirl, that we need a name for it! Cat Grant is as hard as nails throughout the series, even when confronted by super villains, then starts whimpering about her children for one scene only. Eh?


I can't comment on how often this happens, since I'm very behind schedule, but in the case of Cat I don't think this is a fair comment. Cat has been shown being tougher than tough when on the job. Implying that she has to be like this in every aspect of her life is, in my opinion, bad characterization because it reduce a character a one note and very predictable.
In episode 4, I think, it was already established that she seem to have a pretty bit chink in her armor when it comes to her son, so I think that this slip might be very consistent with her character.

erikphandel wrote: The one bit that threw me off was Silver Banshee punching Kara and she actually felt it. Since when was it established that she had super strength? Anyways, as flawed as this episode was, it's undeniable that Grant and Melissa's chemistry on screen was just perfect. The two character fit each other so well, and I loved seeing them together

I totally ship them and I do not regret it


Going by the comic book since ever. She rarely use it and she's not into the top tier of heavy lifters, but all the wiki I consulted listed at least a modicum of super-strength for her.

(formerly Anon, still Librarian)

"What is the point of having free will if one cannot occasionally spit in the eye of destiny?" ("Gentleman" John Marcone)

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29 Mar 2016 14:06 #47041 by erikphandel
Oh, my bad then :v didn't read too much Silver Banshee to be honest, it seemed like a weird fit

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29 Mar 2016 15:35 - 29 Mar 2016 15:37 #47042 by lfan
Overall, I didn't think it was an awful episode, but I think it was definitely geared towards pairing them up for the fans, as the plot didn't really progress anything in the series (with an exception of maybe the last 5 mins). I think that people that watch the Flash will enjoy this more than people who don't, based on the references and "cute little quips". Based on some of their expressions in their lines (especially in that doughut and ice cream scene) it seemed liked the cast was kinda intentionally hamming it up as an inside joke, but maybe that was just me. R5, I agree with some of you points, but I'll play point-counterpoint with you for fun.....

five_red wrote: First: it was too rushed. This was as crammed an episode as the pilot, but unlike the pilot this episode didn't have a strong unfolding storyline to carry you through. It just seemed to lurch haphazardly from one scenario to the next, with minimal explanation as to why specific events were happening. "So, why are they in the CatCo secret office now?", "So, why does James need to visit the DEO now?", "So, why hasn't Livewire just killed Cat Grant yet?", "So, why is Siobhan Smythe dressed like that now?", "So, how does Cat recognise Siobhan Smythe in all that make-up?"


Agree to an extent as I think the "pacing" of most episodes this season has been rushed. I think a couple of episodes -- like this one -- are better tailored for a "to be continued" two-parter. It seems rushed cause they basically drop Flash onto the show in the first few minutes and then have to proceedd with the storyline which includes the "origin" of one villain and breaking the other out of prison. Then have them fight Supergirl and Flash. That's a lot of stuff packed into 44 minutes, so I'm sure some stuff got edited (dumbed) down or written out. As for your questions, I'd ask for a little bit of "suspension of disbelief", especially in a superhero show. You're wondering why Livewire just didn't kill Cat Grant when she had her?!? I'd hate to watch a James Bond film with you! :P

five_red wrote: Second: fridge logic overload. Indeed we need a new term, because these errors no longer require a post-show visit to the fridge to spot them -- they're apparent in real time. For example, the DEO is a top ultra high top super top top-ity-top secret organisation... that apparently any and every employee of CatCo is allowed to drop in on whenever they have a few minutes to spare, or figure they might be possessed by an ancient curse. Oh, and feel free to wander around the corridors and peek inside any of the interrogation rooms while you're there. Hell, the wi-fi is probably unprotected, and the petty cash tin is probably kept in a cupboard in the kitchen.


Can't argue alot with this one other than saying the pace is again to blame (and maybe some lazy writers). Siobhan walking by and seeing and overhearing Livewire takes far less time to film than probably a more plausible (and complicated scenario).

five_red wrote: Third: we didn't need two villains. The show was crowded enough as it is without having two bad 'guys'. Neither of them were particularly effective, or presented any kind of a serious threat. Liwewire makes a big deal about wanting to punish Cat Grant, then doesn't. Banshee makes a big deal about wanting to punish Cat Grant and Kara Danvers, then ignores the former... and seemingly totally forgets about the latter in the final part of the story. And after all the pouting and snarling and special effects, this dire threat to National City is taken down with a little sprinkling of water. AGAIN!!! (I mean, forget about Winn's Ghostbusters-style containment field generator, Kara just needs to carry around a 2 litre bottle of Aquafina!)


I thought the two villains was a good thing about this episode and an apropos compliment to "two heroes". I agree they would have made things more "consistent" if Livewire was after Cat and Banshee was after Kara (and they both after Supergirl). As for taking her down with water, I didn't think that was all that bad --- that is LW's weakness. Truth be told, be biggest "complaint" is if Supergirl was fast enough to fly faster than lightning to zoom in front of the chopper, shouldn't she (and Barry) be fast enough to elude her lightning bolts normally -- not to mention Banshee's sonic scream? Umm, sorry I was arguing FOR the show, wasn't I?

five_red wrote: Fourth: the vomit inducing scene when the people of National City do their schmaltzy 'I'm Spartacus' bit. Seriously, why are all these people hanging around watching as various super-people zap each other anyway? And why are there so many of them in that park to begin with? -- the place is clearly only one city block in size..!! (Aside: go check out my locations page if you want to know where this was filmed!) The whole thing was awkward, and bizarre, and so over the top with sugar coating that it jarred like hell. Consult the first Toby McGuire Spidey movie if you want to see how this kind of scene should be done (eg: with humour, rather than schmaltz.)

Spidey clip


I cannot try and defend this one. When I saw the first person mumble something and start to move towards the downed Girl of Steel, I started mumbling "Please don't.....please don't....." To me this is the cheesiest trope in superhero movies, regardless of how its filmed. This time, in Spiderman, in Superman II.......cheesy, cheesy, cheesy. I mean, I GET what they are trying to do/convey and I like the premise. it is just NEVER executed well without coming off as gut-wrenchingly cheesy.

five_red wrote: Fifth: more examples of what I'm now going to christen CUPTS -- Convenient Uncharacteristic Personality Transplant Syndrome. It crops up so often in Supergirl, that we need a name for it! Cat Grant is as hard as nails throughout the series, even when confronted by super villains, then starts whimpering about her children for one scene only. Eh?


C'mon, I gotta take a little umbrage with this one. We've seen Cat has a softer side. being threatened with death, you don't think she's get a little emotional? And talking about her kids humanizes her (or attempts to) more in Livewire's eyes which may have been intentional on Cat's part to be "more convincing"


As R5 said, this one was for the fans and for the promotional value. The sheer number of previews and featurettes ahead of the episode pretty much illustrate that they were trying to circle the audience wagons of both shows. I certainly hope the overnight numbers reflect some improvement and that the bet paid off. I think not only are they testing the viewership waters but this might have been a litmus test to see if they can integrate their cross network-properties effectively.

ElF
Last edit: 29 Mar 2016 15:37 by lfan.
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29 Mar 2016 16:03 - 29 Mar 2016 16:08 #47044 by five_red

lfan wrote:

five_red wrote: Fifth: more examples of what I'm now going to christen CUPTS -- Convenient Uncharacteristic Personality Transplant Syndrome. It crops up so often in Supergirl, that we need a name for it! Cat Grant is as hard as nails throughout the series, even when confronted by super villains, then starts whimpering about her children for one scene only. Eh?


C'mon, I gotta take a little umbrage with this one. We've seen Cat has a softer side. being threatened with death, you don't think she's get a little emotional? And talking about her kids humanizes her (or attempts to) more in Livewire's eyes which may have been intentional on Cat's part to be "more convincing"

ElF


Let me just clarify: I don't quibble with the fact that Cat has a softer side, I quibble with the way her character (like others, including Kara at times) seems to be self contradictory at times.

In this episode Kara rushes into Cat's office and tells her that Livewire has escaped, and insists both Cat and Carter go into hiding -- Kara even tells Cat she will make the arrangements to get them out of the city. But Cat repeatedly refuses to act, no matter what Kara says. Later, Livewire and Banshee both turn up at CatCo, and Cat just shrugs them off in her usual dismissive way. Then, two minutes later, we see Cat as hostage in the park, and suddenly, without explanation, Cat has undergone a personality transformation. Now she's all lip-trembling and pleading for her life, along the lines of "please don't kill me, I'm a mother, what about my kids?" -- yet Livewire never mentioned Cat's children, or make any specific threats other than the same kind of stuff she's been making during the whole episode, and in the 'Livewire' episode previously.

At first I thought Cat was faking it, to play for time -- but the way Calista plays it as the scene unfolds, I'm not so sure.

For 30 minutes Cat was a brave lion (with a heart) facing down Livewire without a care, but one whiff of fresh air and she suddenly becomes a meek little kitten, begging for her life and on the verge of tears. And there appears to be no explanation for the transition, given that Livewire doesn't lay a single finger on her. Maybe Cat has agoraphobia (fear of outdoor spaces)..?


Overnights are just in, and the episode did well. For context, last week's season low episode (Manhunter) scored 1.3 (18-49 demo) and 6.03m (total); but Worlds Finest jumped to 1.7 and 7.24m. Some good news, at last!


R5

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Last edit: 29 Mar 2016 16:08 by five_red. Reason: Ratings.

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29 Mar 2016 18:32 #47047 by Andy T
does anyone else think that Siobhan banshee bring on might be something to do with Myriad being activated? would explain the vacant expression and mood change in her

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29 Mar 2016 21:32 #47055 by fats

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29 Mar 2016 23:53 #47056 by TwiceOnThursdays
Replied by TwiceOnThursdays on topic Season 1 x 18 Spoilers and Discussions Worlds Finest

erikphandel wrote: The one bit that threw me off was Silver Banshee punching Kara and she actually felt it. Since when was it established that she had super strength? Anyways, as flawed as this episode was, it's undeniable that Grant and Melissa's chemistry on screen was just perfect. The two character fit each other so well, and I loved seeing them together

I totally ship them and I do not regret it


She's shown tossing Winn across the room for the setup.

Also, my explanation for why Supergirl felt it, is that Banshee is supernatural, and this futzed with Supergirl's Powers.

Otherwise Banshee didn't seem strong enough to affect Supergirl physically. (Else it's more of the inconsistent power levels they show for Supergirl.)

And yeah, in the comics she's got some strength too. Not her primary power, but she does have it.

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30 Mar 2016 00:22 #47057 by TwiceOnThursdays
Replied by TwiceOnThursdays on topic Season 1 x 18 Spoilers and Discussions Worlds Finest

five_red wrote: ...

But in five years time, nobody will remember it as a good episode. Just like the crossover episodes of Star Trek, Doctor Who, etc. etc. were not regarded well beyond their initial fan buzz. And that's the plus and the minus of fanwank episodes -- they generate huge hype (and ratings), but never deliver any quality. Which pretty much sums up this episode -- all hype, no substance. (Or, to steal another British idiom: "all fur coat and no knickers".) :)

...

R5


I get that you don't like "fanwank" but your proffered evidence is faulty:

Trials and Tribulations -- one of the best regarded Deep Space Nine Episodes. (I did a quick google and found it on some top 10 lists.)

Relics - a well regarded (and remembered) ST: NG episode. I have a hard core ST fan friend who talks about this episode all the time.

Buffy appearances on Angel are also remembered fairly well, I think, but they aren't the best episodes in the show admittedly.

The Flash/Arrow episodes seem to be doing pretty well in regards to both shows normal episodes. I'd say they were better-than-average Arrow episodes at least.

Hell, the entire Legends of Tomorrow is almost fanwank from the outset, and it's just fun.

Fanwank isn't inherently BAD, if it's done badly it is.

Dr Who .. might have more there than your other examples. They tended to overdue such things, and they seem to optimize for it, rather than spending the time to make a great show. Maybe why i'm mostly bored with Dr. Who. OTH, the last XMAS episode is fanwank: Bring back River Song! And, I think it was my favorite episode of the seasons, even though it was 100% fanwank. I also think it was a reasonably good episode (for Dr. Who). The plot was better than average and the character bits between the Doctor and River were excellent.

But maybe I just like fanwank?

This Supergirl episode WAS rushed, but it was also hella fun in places. And that was the point. (It also made me appreciate Melissa's acting too, as she was a different Supergirl with Barry around.)

But a show really can't live on just-fun too much. I do admit that the episode had a lot of problems, include the schmaltzy crowd scene. I'm not as down on the Cat scene as you were though. I found it the difference between being in front of the people she works with in her place of power vs. "alone" (though there were people in the park they were cat co employees) and about ready to ACTUALLY die, w/o any sign of rescue.

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30 Mar 2016 00:26 #47058 by TwiceOnThursdays
Replied by TwiceOnThursdays on topic Season 1 x 18 Spoilers and Discussions Worlds Finest
I was wondering this before this episode.

And I'm pretty sure Cat knows. She figured out what happened when Manhunter revealed himself. She knows he can shapechange/put on an illusionary self. So if he can do that, maybe that Supergirl she saw with Kara....

It was her comments about Barry and how she said them...

Plus how she responds to Supergirl now, more motherly than before.

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30 Mar 2016 04:36 - 30 Mar 2016 04:38 #47061 by d_k_c
Love supergirl, think it's a great show. I can forgive most flaws.....but the writers blew a tire on this episode...my only hope is that the show doesn't crash and burn because of it. Siohban - whatever her name is - punches out supergirl? Wtf? Flash and SG lose to these dimwits? Wtf?

I did enjoy the banter between flash and SG...maybe the episode should have kept to that, and focused on getting him home rather than focusing on the 2 worst villains in dc history.

Obviously I'll still watch the show - but other than myself and swm I don't know if others will be so forgiving - the writer of this particular episode fucked up.
Last edit: 30 Mar 2016 04:38 by d_k_c.

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30 Mar 2016 11:22 #47064 by kikass2014
I have to agree with Five_Red's review for the most part.

The only thing I can honestly say that I really liked about this episode was the chemistry between Flash and Supergirl. I thought that worked really well.

Apart from that, the biggest problem was that this episode, as noted, felt incredible rushed. Would have worked a lot better spreading it over two epsiodes (its a big crossover, Star Trek use to do these and, if I remember, they were always 2-parters).

Like someone mentioned, if this helps get Supergirl a second season, I'm extremely happy :)

Peace.

/K

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31 Mar 2016 03:14 #47086 by Markiehoe
I loved this episode.
I like the light hearted comic booky stuff.
I like my good girls good and my badgirls bad.
And i got two bad girls this episode.

James got put in the corner for about 43 minutes also, always a plus.

Supergirl and Flash made a great team.
All smiles and teamwork.
And they didn't even fight each other unlike other DC heroes.

A big groan moment was when Banshee knocked Supergirl to the ground.
They never said anything about her having superstrength.
However i am perfectly okay with Supernatural beings in the Supergirl universe.

My favorite part of Superman II was when the crowd tried to protect Superman from the Kryptonian villians.
So I liked it when the crowd tried to defend Supergirl.
I'm a sucker for that kinda stuff.
And the Firemen!!!!!!

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31 Mar 2016 15:32 #47095 by pansardum
Nobody that caught the first time Barry visited the DEO and asked if they had a lab? SG exclaims something like "Yeah my sister's lab is over here!"... I know Lana knows this but there were a lot of other people around. I mean this is bad in many ways since Hank and Alex are technically on the run from the government and I would believe SG still wants to conceal her secret identity. A bit sloppy among other things in this episode.

Another scene that comes to mind is when SG and Barry just met and somehow end up in a room with Barry in front of a computer. James and Winn storm in through the door and Kara casually ask what happened with the girl that tried to kill her at the office... Oh yeah, like that shouldn't have been high on the priority list after being saved. Guess she got really groggy from the scream.

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31 Mar 2016 15:56 #47096 by Woodclaw

pansardum wrote: Nobody that caught the first time Barry visited the DEO and asked if they had a lab? SG exclaims something like "Yeah my sister's lab is over here!"... I know Lana knows this but there were a lot of other people around. I mean this is bad in many ways since Hank and Alex are technically on the run from the government and I would believe SG still wants to conceal her secret identity. A bit sloppy among other things in this episode.


Since in the pilot Hank/J'onn refered to Kara (in costume) and Alex as the "Agent Danvers and her alien sister" when they arrived at the D.E.O. I think that SG's identity is a pretty open secret among the operatives.

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01 Apr 2016 04:53 #47101 by YAGS
Yeah, the fact that the entire DEO knows her "secret" identity has bugged me since the pilot episode.

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04 Apr 2016 20:12 #47167 by jdrock24
Finally got around to watching this episode this morning so I can post my thoughts:

- This was probably the cheesiest episode yet. I mean, it was dripping. The cheese was oozing out of every pore. The lines were silly, the show was jam packed. It really reeked of "gimickiness" (<-Yes, I know that is probably not a word.)
- I really don't know what the writers were thinking. It seemed that they had the episode written and somewhere along the line said "Hey, our ratings aren't that good and we need a boost. I know! Let's add The Flash to this already crammed episode!"
- Usually I've forgiven this show because at least I would have a good action scene I can view and say "Well, at least that was well done." Not this time.
- I am so sick of the Jimmy/Kara romance. Just be done with it already. I don't care.

Because of the wife and kids, I'll still be watching this show and I'm genuinely interested to see what Myriad is and what it does. I just need to get the bad taste of this episode out of my mouth.

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05 Apr 2016 02:28 #47173 by Markiehoe
So last weeks crossover episode had the best ratings yet and really built momentum and goodwill with casual fans.

Soooo they have no episode this week.

Brilliant move CBS.

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