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JL: God and Monsters - Wonder Woman Preview

12 Jun 2015 19:33 #42745 by lfan
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12 Jun 2015 19:49 #42746 by fats
pornagraphic

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12 Jun 2015 19:50 #42747 by lfan
Practically....not your parents' Wonder Woman!

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12 Jun 2015 20:39 #42752 by AuGoose
Replied by AuGoose on topic JL: God and Monsters - Wonder Woman Preview

fats wrote: pornagraphic


Oh my god. That was AMAZING.

A ruthless killer redhead with a Motherbox and a libido. It actually doesn't get any better.

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12 Jun 2015 20:50 #42753 by TwiceOnThursdays
Replied by TwiceOnThursdays on topic JL: God and Monsters - Wonder Woman Preview
Look, I've already pre-ordered this. They don't have to keep trying to take my money. ;-)

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12 Jun 2015 21:06 #42755 by Markiehoe
Replied by Markiehoe on topic JL: God and Monsters - Wonder Woman Preview
Not for me.
I don't mind the sexually aggressive part for this incarnation.
At least she has a sexy costume!
What's up with the shoulder pads again?
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12 Jun 2015 21:07 #42756 by ArgentDragon
Replied by ArgentDragon on topic JL: God and Monsters - Wonder Woman Preview

AuGoose wrote:

fats wrote: pornagraphic


Oh my god. That was AMAZING.

A ruthless killer redhead with a Motherbox and a libido. It actually doesn't get any better.


I was more impressed in the fact that Steve Trevor is reasonably competent here.

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12 Jun 2015 21:12 #42757 by AuGoose
Replied by AuGoose on topic JL: God and Monsters - Wonder Woman Preview
Its not Diana, she's Ares' daughter. And rather than being an amazon most of her gear has a very distinctive Apokolips visual style (that belt... pure Kirby!).

Love her blocking bullets with the sword :).

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12 Jun 2015 21:13 #42758 by AuGoose
Replied by AuGoose on topic JL: God and Monsters - Wonder Woman Preview

ArgentDragon wrote: I was more impressed in the fact that Steve Trevor is reasonably competent here.


That was rather pleasant, wasn't it? :D

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12 Jun 2015 21:27 #42759 by ArgentDragon
Replied by ArgentDragon on topic JL: God and Monsters - Wonder Woman Preview
The Superman one is out as well. Not going to link it here because it's way too depressing and likely to start a category F5 internet comment storm. It's on Machinima's YouTube channel.

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12 Jun 2015 21:28 #42760 by castor
Replied by castor on topic JL: God and Monsters - Wonder Woman Preview
Not going with it.

They have done Warrior Wonder Woman before with a sword.

They have done even sexual Wonder Woman before.

They have done Cold Wonder Woman before who is willing to kill.

All of this together...it just feels like it lacks a real heart of the character-which is silly cause theres been maybe a dozen diffrent wonder woman characters in the comics, plus associate live action(actually specifically i am going to guess Bruce Timm saw the NBC pilot and went "Yes")

I get this is intended as a touch-parody is the wrong word but thats the concept- a super dark edgy version of classic characters...and as such-sure thats fine, but not really a fan.

Castor

Ps. Will say this: i kind of Wish Bruce Timm didn't just do DC cartoons. Would love to see him branch out cause this more or less what hes done for the last 25 years.
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13 Jun 2015 09:55 #42769 by Woodclaw
Replied by Woodclaw on topic JL: God and Monsters - Wonder Woman Preview

ArgentDragon wrote:

AuGoose wrote:

fats wrote: pornagraphic


Oh my god. That was AMAZING.

A ruthless killer redhead with a Motherbox and a libido. It actually doesn't get any better.


I was more impressed in the fact that Steve Trevor is reasonably competent here.


Well this is not a first for the DC Animated, the version fo Steve Trevor that appeared in Justice League was very skilled and competent -- enough to escape Berlin in 1940 -- same with the one in the Wonder Woman movie.

AuGoose wrote: Its not Diana, she's Ares' daughter. And rather than being an amazon most of her gear has a very distinctive Apokolips visual style (that belt... pure Kirby!).

Love her blocking bullets with the sword :).


Actually I believe that this Wonder Woman is supposed to be from Apokolips, I'm not sure how she relates to the rest of the New Gods.

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13 Jun 2015 16:53 #42772 by shadar
Replied by shadar on topic JL: God and Monsters - Wonder Woman Preview
I like this Akropoleon version of an Amazon. The way she left Steve to fight on his own after he did the whole macho thing on her. After he told her to let him handle it. Of course, he couldn't and she knew it was just a matter of time. She's ten times the warrior any human could be.

The one thing that was new to me was using the Mother Box to pop in and out during the fight. I always recalled the Boom Tubes as being really dramatic and disruptive, a way to get people in and out of Akropolis. This woman uses miniature Boom Tubes as a tactical weapon to pop around the fight scene. Very effective, but different than I remember.

And like everyone from Acropolis (it seems), she has a dominant sexuality and she's totally turned on by battle. The last is very Amazonian.

So Steve has his butt saved by her, and that leads to some hot sex right at the scene of the fight, among the wreckage and bodies. It doesn't always suck to be Steve.
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14 Jun 2015 00:04 #42778 by arvin sloane
Replied by arvin sloane on topic JL: God and Monsters - Wonder Woman Preview
She´s actually Bekka, a New God.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bekka

"If you threaten our son again, I'll put my heel through your skull"
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14 Jun 2015 03:39 #42781 by AuGoose
Replied by AuGoose on topic JL: God and Monsters - Wonder Woman Preview

ArgentDragon wrote: The Superman one is out as well. Not going to link it here because it's way too depressing and likely to start a category F5 internet comment storm. It's on Machinima's YouTube channel.


See that's the thing I don't get. This idea that heroes should NEVER have to make tough choices. People were dying every second that conversation went on and he knew that. Fantastically, he walked right past folks in peril... not because he didn't notice or didn't care but in a catastrophe triage is your ONLY option. Does he look happy with the outcome? Hell no. But its still a better solution than sitting there wring his hands helplessly while more people die. I enjoy escapist fantasy, I do, but that shouldn't be the length and breadth of the capes & spandex genre.

Honestly I think DCs "the line" they are so proud of their characters never crossing is pretty insulting to the people who actually defend the common good. There is ABSOLUTELY such a thing as the righteous kill. The law respects that -- and not just for uniformed officers. And while its reasonable that Supes has such a grotesque power differential compared to most of those he faces that he can wrap things up cleanly, this idea that he gets to dictate the terms of battle to a character like General Zod is just ludicrous.

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14 Jun 2015 12:03 #42783 by Woodclaw
Replied by Woodclaw on topic JL: God and Monsters - Wonder Woman Preview

AuGoose wrote:

ArgentDragon wrote: The Superman one is out as well. Not going to link it here because it's way too depressing and likely to start a category F5 internet comment storm. It's on Machinima's YouTube channel.


See that's the thing I don't get. This idea that heroes should NEVER have to make tough choices. People were dying every second that conversation went on and he knew that. Fantastically, he walked right past folks in peril... not because he didn't notice or didn't care but in a catastrophe triage is your ONLY option. Does he look happy with the outcome? Hell no. But its still a better solution than sitting there wring his hands helplessly while more people die. I enjoy escapist fantasy, I do, but that shouldn't be the length and breadth of the capes & spandex genre.

Honestly I think DCs "the line" they are so proud of their characters never crossing is pretty insulting to the people who actually defend the common good. There is ABSOLUTELY such a thing as the righteous kill. The law respects that -- and not just for uniformed officers. And while its reasonable that Supes has such a grotesque power differential compared to most of those he faces that he can wrap things up cleanly, this idea that he gets to dictate the terms of battle to a character like General Zod is just ludicrous.


My best guess is that hte problem here are perceived expectations: the name of Superman carries images of someone so ludicrously powerful that most people simply consider the idea of him killing like unnecessary. If you also conside that, for better of worse, Superman is the archetype upon which all superheroes are based upon and you'll get the general picture. It doesn't help that the pop culture image of Superman is much too bright and cheerful. Pretty much every author I can remember working on Superman (including the Dini-Timm squad) for the past 3 decades tried and strived to change this to no avail. In the public eye Superman remains a Lawful-Stupid character and every attempt to change this seem destined to fail.
I can understand that from many points of view having a superhero killing on a regular base is a problem, especially with a very aware public (i.e. a superhero arresting someone might be considered citizen arrest -- which is illegal in some countries -- but killing is still murder and it's rather hard to claim self-defense when you're invulnerable) but having them going ludicrous lengths not to is equally bad.
Ridicolosly among the big DC heroes the only one who has a clean slate in that sense is Batman, which is both utterly ridicolous -- given that he's the one who should be forced to use lethal means more often given his mortality -- and perfectly fine -- considering he's actually a childhood trauma with legs.

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14 Jun 2015 15:37 #42784 by castor
Replied by castor on topic JL: God and Monsters - Wonder Woman Preview

AuGoose wrote:

ArgentDragon wrote: The Superman one is out as well. Not going to link it here because it's way too depressing and likely to start a category F5 internet comment storm. It's on Machinima's YouTube channel.


See that's the thing I don't get. This idea that heroes should NEVER have to make tough choices. People were dying every second that conversation went on and he knew that. Fantastically, he walked right past folks in peril... not because he didn't notice or didn't care but in a catastrophe triage is your ONLY option. Does he look happy with the outcome? Hell no. But its still a better solution than sitting there wring his hands helplessly while more people die. I enjoy escapist fantasy, I do, but that shouldn't be the length and breadth of the capes & spandex genre.

Honestly I think DCs "the line" they are so proud of their characters never crossing is pretty insulting to the people who actually defend the common good. There is ABSOLUTELY such a thing as the righteous kill. The law respects that -- and not just for uniformed officers. And while its reasonable that Supes has such a grotesque power differential compared to most of those he faces that he can wrap things up cleanly, this idea that he gets to dictate the terms of battle to a character like General Zod is just ludicrous.


Well i will give them this: if there is anything interesting about these videos its the "parody element" of modern interpretations of characters.

This Superman Video feels like Bruce Timm saw Man of Steel and heard all those comments about Superman destroying the city and killing Zod. Which is not entirely fair as that kind of interpretation misses i think some of the subtlies of that scene(Superman is inexperienced a touch weaker then he is normally protrayed, and to be fair-he is clearly bent out of shape about it all and crying-but more on that in a bitt).

This is Batman fighting Harley Quinn. A character Timm Created based on a character in a soap opera, that has been for the last decade been drawn sluttier and sluttier.

This is wonder Woman as mentioned somewhere between Killing Max Lord and The NBC Pilot.

This is satire. Not precisly funny satire, but i do think Timm at some level is having fun, becuse i don't think he agrees with you Dragoon. He wants to make characters who find away...and this is way point this out.

But Your right characters have to make tough choices-and to give Man of Steel Credit. Plenty of modern Superhero movies-Iron Man, Spiderman, Batman, etc have the hero killing people-hell Superman killed Zod in Superman 2. These are mostly killing through editing the villian dies in one shot and no one comments about it the next(see for Example Electro in Spiderman 2) But MOS did make this a momment, they did protray him worked up and sad about it-and that is fair. That is reasonable. That is not something we are intrested in these videos.

In the Wonder Woman short She kills the gang leader, and about two minutes latter: Sexy Time. That doesn't feel like the character to me-but almost a disservice to a character who has in the comics consciously killed and dealt with what that means. This captures the ink but not the subtly of it.

At least in this short-but i suspect the movies they are all going to come to the conclusion "murder is wrong" and argue that this stuff should never happen.

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14 Jun 2015 19:47 #42785 by shadar
Replied by shadar on topic JL: God and Monsters - Wonder Woman Preview
Plausibility is rarely a part of comics, but it should be. That and also Spock's sage pronouncement that the "needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few". Right on.

Its easy to construct scenarios where Supes (or any other hero) has to kill. Take a bad guy (terrorist, criminally insane, whatever) with his finger on the trigger of a detonator and an entire Kindergarten class of little kids wired to the explosives. You know with certainty that the bad guy will push the button, for religious or political reasons or just plain craziness.

You also know that if you hit the bad guy at high supersonic speed you can eliminate the threat. He and the detonator and the wires will be blasted to atoms.

So what do you do if you're Superman?

Per most Superman comics, he'd do some crazy shit like flying backwards around the Earth to back up time and find the terrorist when he was a child and make sure he's raised to be a responsible adult. Problem prevented, at the cost of any plausibility.

Anyone else is going to fly through the bad guy at high Mach and turn him into pink mist. The children go home (shaken and maybe temporarily deafened but alive) to their parents. That's plausible. It feels real.

The idea that Superman is ALWAYS above all this (and that he'll resort to riskier rescue approaches to avoid killing even those who deserve killing) has always struck me as stupid.

So in MOS when Kal kills Zod, I cheered. Not the killing, but for the first time, Kal acted in a plausible manner. He did what he had to do to save innocents. Full stop.
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14 Jun 2015 22:03 #42788 by brantley
Replied by brantley on topic JL: God and Monsters - Wonder Woman Preview
Hear, hear!

--Brantley

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14 Jun 2015 23:52 #42791 by Woodclaw
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shadar wrote: Plausibility is rarely a part of comics, but it should be. That and also Spock's sage pronouncement that the "needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few". Right on.

Its easy to construct scenarios where Supes (or any other hero) has to kill. Take a bad guy (terrorist, criminally insane, whatever) with his finger on the trigger of a detonator and an entire Kindergarten class of little kids wired to the explosives. You know with certainty that the bad guy will push the button, for religious or political reasons or just plain craziness.

You also know that if you hit the bad guy at high supersonic speed you can eliminate the threat. He and the detonator and the wires will be blasted to atoms.

So what do you do if you're Superman?

Per most Superman comics, he'd do some crazy shit like flying backwards around the Earth to back up time and find the terrorist when he was a child and make sure he's raised to be a responsible adult. Problem prevented, at the cost of any plausibility.

Anyone else is going to fly through the bad guy at high Mach and turn him into pink mist. The children go home (shaken and maybe temporarily deafened but alive) to their parents. That's plausible. It feels real.

The idea that Superman is ALWAYS above all this (and that he'll resort to riskier rescue approaches to avoid killing even those who deserve killing) has always struck me as stupid.

So in MOS when Kal kills Zod, I cheered. Not the killing, but for the first time, Kal acted in a plausible manner. He did what he had to do to save innocents. Full stop.


I think this touches the key point of this problem: is the plausible way the right way?
In my opinion: not always. The key point of heroism is -- for me -- about making hard choices and this can go both ways. Not killing the villain is a hard choice because it implies a lot of trust in other people and yourself. The hero is trusting that the judicial and prison system would be enough to keep the villain away, trusting that the next time he will be fast enough or skilled enough to stop the villain before it's too late and so on.
Killing is the sensible solution sometimes, but it should also be a last resort in my opinion, simply because if killing is the automatic response to any problem then the character is not heroic at all.

"These were dangerous thoughts, he knew. They were the kind that crept up on a Watchman when the chase was over and it was just you and him, facing one another in that breathless little pinch between the crime and the punishment.
And maybe a Watchman had seen civilization with the skin ripped off one time too many and stopped acting like a Watchman and started acting like a normal human being and realized that the click of the crossbow or the sweep of the sword would make all the world so clean.
And you couldn’t think like that, even about vampires. Even though they’d take the lives of other people because little lives don’t matter and what the hell can we take away from them?
And, too, you couldn’t think like that because they gave you a sword and a badge and that turned you into something else and that had to mean there were some thoughts you couldn’t think." [Terry Partchett, Feet of Clay]

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