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Iron Man 3's female villain was nixed by corporate.

17 May 2016 14:21 #47911 by inactive
http://www.vox.com/2016/5/16/11684900/iron-man-3-female-villain-shane-black

Grr. Smash.

I see signs that this mindset is changing, but too slowly.

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17 May 2016 15:35 #47915 by jdrock24
Hmmmmm, another story about how Marvel mistreats the women in their movies? I would comment but instead I'll just continue...

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17 May 2016 17:27 #47917 by TwiceOnThursdays
Replied by TwiceOnThursdays on topic Iron Man 3's female villain was nixed by corporate.
I love how Black went to great lengths to not say "Ike Perlmutter".

again:

comicsalliance.com/ike-perlmutter-thinks-female-led-films-bomb/

and (most importantly):

www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/marvel-sh...up-film-chief-819205

For those who don't know, Ike Perlmutter came from the toy industry so is OBVIOUSLY the person that Black was referring to as "Marvel Corporate".

So yes, I'm not surprised at this, and why it was nixed. But just as this is a story, it's as story that Perlmutter was REMOVED from affecting the movies. He was removed for many reasons, but this is probably one of them. One only has to look at Disney's recent and future movies to see what they think on this topic. ie.e Maleficent, Inside Out, The Force Awakens, Rouge One, The Alice movies. There are even slated films like Queen of Katwe. I don't think Disney is afraid of female-led movies, and I suspect hearing that from Ike just helped him out the door. (He was mostly likely removed for reasons mentioned in the article, i.e. being hard to work with. But this is just one specific symptom of that, and Iron Man 3 is an example of how it got in they way.)

Marvel Television still reports to Ike Perlmutter, which is probably why it's still sucking. Marvel desperately needs it's own version of Bruce Timm, and to get that person to report to Feige. (And everyone needs an Andrea Romano when doing voice work).
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17 May 2016 17:58 - 17 May 2016 18:02 #47919 by kikass2014
Yup, nailed it TwiceOnThursday. Shane Black is obviously referring to Perlmutter in the article.

Glad Ike has been removed from the picture.

Pity some people are just ignorant. "...mistreats the women in their movies". Move along muppet , nothing to see here. Move along.

Peace.

/K
Last edit: 17 May 2016 18:02 by kikass2014. Reason: Typo

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17 May 2016 18:23 #47920 by TwiceOnThursdays
Replied by TwiceOnThursdays on topic Iron Man 3's female villain was nixed by corporate.
I did some searching to find out if the Netflix stuff was under Marvel Television. It appears that it is, from what I can find out. I do wonder if they've kept Perlmutter away from it. Usually when something is done, and done publicly, like get Feige out from under Perlmutter, there would be some direction left to Perlmutter. It was reported widely as a rebuke, so I can't imagine someone didn't take him aside and say "Don't fuck up the Netflix deal".

The main Marvel people involved are Loeb and Quesada (who I have my own problems with, but is 100x better than Perlmutter).

The second thing Marvel/Netflix did is Jessica Jones, so I suspect that he's being kept hands off.

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17 May 2016 19:03 #47921 by inactive

TwiceOnThursdays wrote: I did some searching to find out if the Netflix stuff was under Marvel Television. It appears that it is, from what I can find out. I do wonder if they've kept Perlmutter away from it. Usually when something is done, and done publicly, like get Feige out from under Perlmutter, there would be some direction left to Perlmutter. It was reported widely as a rebuke, so I can't imagine someone didn't take him aside and say "Don't fuck up the Netflix deal".

The main Marvel people involved are Loeb and Quesada (who I have my own problems with, but is 100x better than Perlmutter).

The second thing Marvel/Netflix did is Jessica Jones, so I suspect that he's being kept hands off.


Also, I don't think they're expecting the Netflix shows to spin off a lot of toys, which is all Ike really seems to care about.

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17 May 2016 19:13 - 17 May 2016 19:13 #47922 by TwiceOnThursdays
Replied by TwiceOnThursdays on topic Iron Man 3's female villain was nixed by corporate.

geekseven wrote:

TwiceOnThursdays wrote: I did some searching to find out if the Netflix stuff was under Marvel Television. It appears that it is, from what I can find out. I do wonder if they've kept Perlmutter away from it. Usually when something is done, and done publicly, like get Feige out from under Perlmutter, there would be some direction left to Perlmutter. It was reported widely as a rebuke, so I can't imagine someone didn't take him aside and say "Don't fuck up the Netflix deal".

The main Marvel people involved are Loeb and Quesada (who I have my own problems with, but is 100x better than Perlmutter).

The second thing Marvel/Netflix did is Jessica Jones, so I suspect that he's being kept hands off.


Also, I don't think they're expecting the Netflix shows to spin off a lot of toys, which is all Ike really seems to care about.


Wouldn't that be great? Some Jessica Jones dolls complete with bottle of vodka.

And yeah, every time Ike's being a dick it seems that he's driven by toy sales. Or being upset at Fox as they won't give back FF (which is why there isn't currently a FF comic at Marvel or one in the works. I think this might be a first for Marvel since 1961).
Last edit: 17 May 2016 19:13 by TwiceOnThursdays. Reason: fixing typo.

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17 May 2016 22:53 #47928 by castor
Funny 2014 is also the year Disney has Released Frozen, which i have argued before is basically a Female Superhero movie, and is certainly a female protaginist lead movie. It did better at the box office then Iron Man 3 did . They also did some merchandising for this movie. I went to a store the other day and found some still avaiable. Also there was a song.

Last year they released Force Awakens, which is also arguably a female superhero movie. There was some question about toys and avalability and outcry over that-the bottom line is (to quote a movie) from a certain point of view disney made a billion dollar movie-and left money on the table becuse of it. They would have sold that Rey action figures.

There followup also has a female lead-or a female lead ensamble-but unlike Force awakens-there not hidding that.

So Yeah Disney you can argue is changing...but who knows.

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18 May 2016 17:20 #47941 by jdrock24
I'll just leave this here:

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18 May 2016 19:16 #47944 by kikass2014
Trollolololol do be do be do….ah what the hell, have a bit of time to kill.

You do realise that this is not a Marvel problem, but a HOLLYWOOD problem right? And one does not have to be a genius to realise why this is the case. It’s simple. Most of Hollywood is run by men (heck most of the world for that matter).

So, with that insight, what would be the logical outcome? Right. Most films will feature male heroes squaring up against male villains (particularly in the days up to about the 80s I would posit).

With that said, I ask, what is the point you are making?

Most people, male and female, don’t care if the hero is male or female. They don’t care if the villain is male or female. If it they did, how do you explain this:

"Captain America: Civil War:

Total Lifetime Grosses:

Domestic: $300,717,303 31.1%
+ Foreign: $665,300,000 68.9%
= Worldwide: $966,017,303

Domestic Summary:

Opening Weekend: $179,139,142
(#1 rank, 4,226 theaters, $42,390 average)
% of Total Gross: 59.6%

Widest Release: 4,226 theaters

In Release: 11 days / 1.6 weeks"

I’ve seen many reviews of Civil War (since that is the movie referenced in the clip), from males and FEMALES. Not one of them ever mentioned the gender of heroes or villain. You know what they did mention? How awesome the movie was.

The only people that seem to care about stuff like this (whether the villain is male or female) are SJWs like yourself and femi-nazis.

So, I ask again, what is the point you are making?

Peace.

/K

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18 May 2016 19:20 #47945 by lfan
Guys....c'mon....do we have to rehash this yet AGAIN?!?!

Geez.....

ElF
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18 May 2016 19:53 #47947 by jdrock24

lfan wrote: Guys....c'mon....do we have to rehash this yet AGAIN?!?!

Geez.....

ElF


No. I guess old kikass got triggered again. Any bit of joke or mild criticism of the MCU seems to do that to him.

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18 May 2016 21:04 #47951 by Woodclaw
I think that the point here is the one I tried to put forward many times before: where does a character's focus lie?

More often than not, when writing a female character is involved, many people makes "being female" the key attribute, which often result in weird, half-assed characters that look and sound more like a parody. This is where things go south for me, because that's not what a good story need (unless is a wacky ass comedy, perhaps) in my book.
What a good story need is a character that has a well-rounded and believable personality, regardless of his or hers gender.
Of course I would welcome more superpowered ladies on the silver screen -- I won't be here otherwise -- but I don't think that should be the primary goal of a filmaker. While Iron Man 3 ranks very close to the bottom of my personal Avengers' Top Movies List, I don't think that having a female villain would have made it any better.
Why?
Because the real villain was so inconsequential and marginal to the plot that the character's gender was completely unimportant except, perhaps, that the plot implied that he felt lessened and, possibly, emasculated by Stark's behaviour in a way that is usually labelled as "typically male".

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18 May 2016 22:27 #47954 by kikass2014

What a good story need is a character that has a well-rounded and believable personality, regardless of his or hers gender.


100% agree Woodclaw. The basis should be "what is the character" not the gender.

While Iron Man 3 ranks very close to the bottom of my personal Avengers' Top Movies List, I don't think that having a female villain would have made it any better.


Agree. Iron Man 3 is ok, but like you say the gender of the villain would not have improved it.


Peace.

/K

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18 May 2016 23:29 #47958 by shadar
What I will say is that in a year with the first viable female candidate for US President (not to mention the following years if she gets elected), TV shows and movies with female leads will explode in the US. So from a marketing/financial reason, emphasizing female leads will make sense, at least for a while.

But I agree with Woodclaw and others that in the ideal world, gender should not matter, only good characterization.

But movies change with the culture. James Bond could never have been a a woman back in the 60's. Hell, he was and out and out womanizer, yet he was also the most popular leading character in the movies for some time. That franchise is still alive.

Science fiction feature movies (despite being future-looking progressive in many ways) had very few strong, female main characters until Ripley came along. I'm oversimplifying, but Jane Fonda as Barbarella was the memorable role for a woman in SF movies prior to Ripley.

So gender WILL matter, and whoever takes best advantage of that first and best will make money. I think DC is getting that message, but maybe not so much with Marvel, who lean toward male characters as they always have. They also know their audience.

But this toy thing, and how it backs its way into character decisions, that seems really wrong. But that said, good authors know what kind of characters their target audience wants to read about, so economic forces have often shaped character creation and gender. In the extreme, look at SWM. Gender of characters is vital for this audience.

In the six decades I've been watching movies, no time has been better than this for putting strong females on the screen. The fact that we are also getting some superheroines is beyond expectation.

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19 May 2016 00:03 #47959 by Woodclaw

shadar wrote: What I will say is that in a year with the first viable female candidate for US President (not to mention the following years if she gets elected), TV shows and movies with female leads will explode in the US. So from a marketing/financial reason, emphasizing female leads will make sense, at least for a while.

But I agree with Woodclaw and others that in the ideal world, gender should not matter, only good characterization.

But movies change with the culture. James Bond could never have been a a woman back in the 60's. Hell, he was and out and out womanizer, yet he was also the most popular leading character in the movies for some time. That franchise is still alive.


This is, I think a very fair assessment, we often overlook: stories and storytellers changes with time and each age produces stories that reflect that reflect a certain moment and sensibility.

Science fiction feature movies (despite being future-looking progressive in many ways) had very few strong, female main characters until Ripley came along. I'm oversimplifying, but Jane Fonda as Barbarella was the memorable role for a woman in SF movies prior to Ripley.


Before someone else jump on this bit and point out that Ripley (one of my got-to characters for good female characterization) was written as a gender neutral role, I'd like to say this, in the first movie Ripley's gender was meaningless and that worked to establish her skills and character, but in the second movie (Aliens) she was written as a female character without leaving out the already established elements. This way she came out as a complete character because the "she's a woman" bit wasn't overtaking the rest of the character, but was complementary.

So gender WILL matter, and whoever takes best advantage of that first and best will make money. I think DC is getting that message, but maybe not so much with Marvel, who lean toward male characters as they always have. They also know their audience.


Here, perhaps, I didn't explained myself at the best of my abilities,what I meant wasn't that gender shouldn't matter, but that it shouldn't be the only thing that matters.
Taking the Marvel example one step further, when they introduced Monica Rambeau in 1982, she was in many way a bad attempt from Marvel to extra progressive, by introducing a character which filled several niches at once: balck, woman and, eventually, in charge of the in-universe main team, the Avengers. While she eventually survived her decade, many other similar attempts tanked spectacularly because those attempts produced one-note characters that had nothing to offer the story but heir gender, ethnicity or a passing commentary on the then-present political situation (e.g. Neal Shaara in Xtreme X-Men, a character that was meant to capitalize on the trend of having one Indian stand-in, popular around 2000).
If a character can outgrew his questionable starting characterization, I'm very happy, but that's no excuse to do a half-assed job.

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19 May 2016 01:41 #47964 by kikass2014

This is, I think a very fair assessment, we often overlook: stories and storytellers changes with time and each age produces stories that reflect that reflect a certain moment and sensibility.


Without a doubt, art is certainly influenced by the times it is created in.

In the six decades I've been watching movies, no time has been better than this for putting strong females on the screen. The fact that we are also getting some superheroines is beyond expectation.


I agree.

But movies change with the culture. James Bond could never have been a woman back in the 60's. Hell, he was and out and out womanizer, yet he was also the most popular leading character in the movies for some time. That franchise is still alive.


This is an interesting point. Could James Bond be a woman now? Jane Bond? Would it still be a “Bond Film” if 007 were female? Or is it the very fact that James Bond is a man, that makes it a James Bond film?

Another case, and one debated a lot amongst its fans lately, could Dr. Who be a female? Logically one could answer “yes” as it fits in with the mythology (regeneration). Or like Bond, is the fact that the Doctor is male the key defining characteristic of his character? Where is the line between gender and character?

Peace.

/K

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19 May 2016 02:24 #47969 by castor

kikass2014 wrote:

This is, I think a very fair assessment, we often overlook: stories and storytellers changes with time and each age produces stories that reflect that reflect a certain moment and sensibility.


Without a doubt, art is certainly influenced by the times it is created in.

In the six decades I've been watching movies, no time has been better than this for putting strong females on the screen. The fact that we are also getting some superheroines is beyond expectation.


I agree.

But movies change with the culture. James Bond could never have been a woman back in the 60's. Hell, he was and out and out womanizer, yet he was also the most popular leading character in the movies for some time. That franchise is still alive.


This is an interesting point. Could James Bond be a woman now? Jane Bond? Would it still be a “Bond Film” if 007 were female? Or is it the very fact that James Bond is a man, that makes it a James Bond film?

Peace.

/K


But heres the thing.

Every 3- 4 years(depends, doing it a little faster) We see a Bond movie-who have been 100 White Male Actors.

But Every year or so i see a movie that you can desribe as want to be James Bond. Mission Impossible Franchise is a prime example(the first one feels diffrent enough but MI II and beyond is 95% bond), but there plenty of one offs trys-I spies, Man From U.N.C.L.E etc Some Are Parodies (knight and Day, Tuxedo) to. And some kind of reimaginations( XXX is tough James Bond, FF gets more james bond every time), but all kinda fit in my estimation

The "kinda fun not particuarly realistic Spy Film" is a big genre...and probabbly contains 100s of movies.

I have seen Black James Bond(Westly Snipes Art of War), Tuxedo has an asian james bond.

But- and i may be missing something: i don't think i have seen a single Female James Bond.

Now there are some low budget movies from the 70s you could argue-the modesty Blaise series-but those are 40 years old at this point. Yeah there is soft core and straight up porn that has it I am talking high Budget or even moderate budget modern action james bond movies.

Plenty of 'james bond' movie have kickass female characters. Its increasingly a staple of the genre- the girl who gets a good fit in(usually 1), mostly turns into a love intrest, and by the third act is frequently tied up to let the james bond character do his thing. Sometimes these are fun(Fergensun from Mission imposible III) sometimes awful(Halie Berry in Die another day)...but thats the genre. Shes not the hero. Shes the girl.

Now i could talk myself out of this: Theres movies like Salt-but that Feels like a straight up thriller to me. The TV show less so but the original La Femme Nikita really has a little to rough a tone for it. Hanna Does feel like it...but its also a movie about a kid. I guess you could argue Point of No Return the Nikita Remake kinda qualifies but.....

Yeah i am kinda blanking here. Anyone help out.

Becuse yeah i do think this kinda movie could be really cool, and i am not sure you have to wait for ION here to make it. As Been Said pretty much anything in bond is a playful version of something that has been another action movie-so wait for them to copy.

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19 May 2016 04:07 #47975 by TwiceOnThursdays
Replied by TwiceOnThursdays on topic Iron Man 3's female villain was nixed by corporate.

castor wrote:
The "kinda fun not particuarly realistic Spy Film" is a big genre...and probabbly contains 100s of movies.

I have seen Black James Bond(Westly Snipes Art of War), Tuxedo has an asian james bond.

But- and i may be missing something: i don't think i have seen a single Female James Bond.

....mentions Salt, La Femme Nikita, Hanna, Point of No Return ....


Yeah i am kinda blanking here. Anyone help out.

.


I thought a bit thinking this would be easy. It's not. I have to be missing something.

TV: Alias. And La Femme Nikita, and Nikita They're not quite matches...

Agent Carter (this might be the best match, though translated to episodic TV)

Homeland (not watched it, but it's probably too realistic for a James Bond fit)

The Americans (also not watched it, spy for the other side. Oddly, based on a TRUE modern story, even though the show is set in the past) But I suspect this also isn't James Bond.

Not the star of the show, but Shaw from Person of Interest.

And Hunted. (I think you recommend this to me, I remembered it as I checked my Amazon and netflix queues looking for things).

Movies:

Long Kiss Goodnight? Not quite a spy movie. And it's been too long since I watched it.

Haywire doesn't quite fit either (I think too much focus on the fighting).

She's sandwiched in a Super-hero movie, but Black Widow is essentially James Bond. Cool under pressure, gadgets, etc. James Bond wishes he were as cool as she was in the Avengers chair scene.

Damn. It does seem like I should be able to find a DIRECT female comparison.

I do wish they'd make a movie for Rebecca Ferguson after she did Mission Impossible: Rouge Nation. She killed in that movie.

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19 May 2016 04:33 #47976 by castor

TV: Alias. And La Femme Nikita, and Nikita They're not quite matches...

Agent Carter (this might be the best match, though translated to episodic TV)


Alias and Nikita are pretty straight examples, though both are a little grimer. Jennifer Garner little over sold it to be bond.

Homeland (not watched it, but it's probably too realistic for a James Bond fit)

The Americans (also not watched it, spy for the other side. Oddly, based on a TRUE modern story, even though the show is set in the past) But I suspect this also isn't James Bond.


Americans is a spy yes-but a very realistic one. its more about "Will they get Caught, going to the grocery store then will they jump this car while a slide whistle plays.

Homeland i heard got away from it in third season but its more like a cop show

And Hunted. (I think you recommend this to me, I remembered it as I checked my Amazon and netflix queues looking for things).


Thats an okay Good example. I think as i recomended when its going-its a buetiful show. But its not quite a fun show as a times it almost has an experimental film vibe when at its best.

Movies:

Long Kiss Goodnight? Not quite a spy movie. And it's been too long since I watched it.

Haywire doesn't quite fit either (I think too much focus on the fighting).


Long Kiss Goodnight? it has elements of it-but its also a little more serious then i think of as a bond movie. the Second act is kind of goofy fun, but it doesn't quite hit

Haywire i think that was the idea-but yeah it feels more an excuse for cool fight scenes, that for me at least never quite get to fun.

She's sandwiched in a Super-hero movie, but Black Widow is essentially James Bond. Cool under pressure, gadgets, etc. James Bond wishes he were as cool as she was in the Avengers chair scene.


Black Widdow seems very aware that she is female action character in a james bond film. When done well Weddon and others have fun writing her aware of the cliches of a female action character in a james bond film-but she is still a female action character in a james bond film.... just with no bond(well captian america oriron man or whoever)


Which goes to i think a point that Woodclaw made , and something i have said before-most of these characters feel like they are trying to do Ridley from Aliens. Except Ridley is by herself not a fun character. She is just grim and serious(at least as how they remake her-Sigourney Weaver actually does a good job of building the character that Haywire misses). And thats not really james bond-its to serious by half. Even its more serious the Craig sometimes. You want someone who doesn't project rage 100% of the time. But i disagree with Woodlcaw-i know in the script it says "Anyone anygender" but there is some that is very Feminie and Female to Weaver, as especially in aliens she acts that if any sees me weak or girly for one second i am dead. And you can say she is just during Arnold swatzenager...but it does feel diffrent.

I Hope as we go forward with action movies-spies, ubergirls what ever- would like to see a movie where yes, the female lead can have a little fun, maybe with a man or two, can go on adventures and maybe looks like she cares about how she looks, save the day and be the actual main character. We do see this sometimes(not in spy movies) but it is rare.



Damn. It does seem like I should be able to find a DIRECT female comparison.

I do wish they'd make a movie for Rebecca Ferguson after she did Mission Impossible: Rouge Nation. She killed in that movie.[/quote]

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