WW - Spoiler Thread - Read if you want spoilers

Hi all,

I've deleted all posts that I feel is not keeping to the topic. I've never had to do this to this level but I needed to do this as the posts links where inflammatory and has no place here. I have no problems with people commenting on the film, but I have to draw it at line where people can and have been distressed by what is posted, this is the only reason why I intervened in this thread I got pm's and IM's expressing distress at the political nature of the posts, so I had to act.

Some people will be unhappy with what I did, believe me not as much as I am.

Please keep comments about the film and let's try to keep politics (especially politics of the era) out of the thread.

Fats

fats wrote: Hi all,

I've deleted all posts that I feel is not keeping to the topic. I've never had to do this to this level but I needed to do this as the posts links where inflammatory and has no place here. I have no problems with people commenting on the film, but I have to draw it at line where people can and have been distressed by what is posted, this is the only reason why I intervened in this thread I got pm's and IM's expressing distress at the political nature of the posts, so I had to act.

Some people will be unhappy with what I did, believe me not as much as I am.

Please keep comments about the film and let's try to keep politics (especially politics of the era) out of the thread.

Fats

I'd like to add one more thing: I know that it's difficult to keep politics out of the way because many of our choices and tastes are based on our political and social background, but this community is based on a shared interest and passion. This movie is seen by many as a political statement, but that's not what we as SWManiacs are looking for, so can we, please, concentrate on what we liked and we disliked on the movie itself, not it supposed "social value". Otherwise I think we are all due for a long golden lasso based re-education class

I finally had a chance to take in a showing of Wonder Woman on the cheap day here at the local cinema.

Full disclosure: I like female superheroes. I do not like Wonder Woman. I find her badly constructed, badly used in the larger universe, and in most cases badly written. The creator and I were never going to be friends because I find his 'philosophy' essentially vile - thankfully every writer since has largely ignored it. She consistently draws DC's second string writers and it shows. While a few have used that as a launch pad to become well know and beloved storytellers, that's NOT why they were put on the book. Her rogues gallery is abysmal - to the point where you get an automatic geeky gold star if you can name more than three of her main, recurring villains. And heck, even I only know Silver Swan because of my own unique proclivities .

WARNING: ALL the spoilers ahead.

Ok, young Diana is adorable. Totally. And life on Themyscira was well framed. Loved the story book as framing device. The version of Themyscira I'm familiar with has them more technologically advanced than the world of Men in some respects and I thought the moving picture book was in keeping with my expectations for Paradise Island. Points awarded for NOT resorting to opening narration. Well done, Wonder Woman, you've already stomped that awful Green Lantern movie.

It did immediately trip my "Huh...?" reflex that Zeus died creating the island. A little itch that was eventually scratched "Then how was Diana born after they came to the island. Zeus is dead..."

I enjoyed every amazon's performance - to the point that I tend to think every one of them out-acted Gal Gadot. Some fabulous emoting and facial expressions there. Love me that non-verbal communication. Bonus points for Hippolyta not losing her shit when her most trusted second pretty much tells her "You're wrong" to her face. A truly strong ruler, that one.

Things move along and Captain Steve Trevor thwarts a few thousand years of perfect stealth with the power of his "above average" babe radar . I thought the musical cues for pulling him to the surface and swimming off to shore with him were jarring and way over blown. Kicked me right out of watching the movie to seeing the director trying to herd the audience along. Star Wars Episode III was an example of that kind of musical horsewhipping. This thankfully was pretty brief.

We segue into what was probably the highlight of the movie for me: everybody but Gal Gadot fighting . Ok, she does get into it a little at the end. This was all kinds of combat choreography and I loved it. Culminating in the best character in the movie so far croaking, setting in motion dramatic destiny. Awesome. I'm totally on board. Lets do some Epic Drama!

More absolutely lovely scenery porn of the island. Fun with the lasso. Some touching introductions, a bit of Assassin's Creed with sledgehammers, and Hippolyta written as more than a sobbing mother. Refreshing. I could cheerfully do without another Wonder Woman movie, but man, I'd be there full-pop ticket in hand opening day for a DC Amazons movie . We come out of the first Act on track for amazing. Almost as good as the hype even. And in case anyone's forgotten, the first name on the screenplay is Zach Snyder.

Welcome to Act II and jolly old England. It's not for everybody. Etta Candy was a firecracker and a scene stealer, pretty much sealing the deal that every actress out-acted the Title Character... but then again, they're supposed to be more human I suppose. Or it could be I don't find arrogant,ignorant juveniles that compelling . I am going to echo some sentiments I've heard from others that this is about the most sanitized visit to World War One I've ever seen, almost as if they were shooting for a strict PG rating and not even PG 13. Stuffy old men (ha ha, no really, how could they not all be idiots in this movie?), seedy bar with disreputable heroes, a daring plan in defiance of the authorities. It's like I'm back in Rogue One . Oh and a kindly patron who makes it all possible with a thick envelope full of cash. Because there's a wizard in every bar handing out quests, right? Right? Yes, it's textbook, but I thought it was charming and was fully entertained.

I will say the ice cream scene didn't work for me. It felt shoehorned in with stuttering, choppy timing. While I appreciate the nod to some of the better WW writing that has gone before, it felt like a check box rather than honest homage to me. ((shrug)) It worked for some people. So be it.

Act III: The War's This Way. Another nice scene around the campfire, bringing us up to speed on our curiously growing cast. More sterile war scenery. Ah, the trenches at last. Alright. Here it is. That big scene everyone tells me is so amazing... here it comes! I've had some time to get used to the idea that I'm not seeing the same movie as most people. For example, I honestly adore Suicide Squad and some of the most pitch-perfect emotional bonding amongst sociopaths I've ever seen on the big screen. I evidently don't look for the same things as a lot of people. I'm just gonna say it:

Meh.

I don't think I was any older than 10 when I worked out "blocking bullets with your bracelets is a stupid power." It entirely relies on your enemies being DUMBER THAN YOU ARE.

So, her triumphant march starts with... her shield on her back and her in a the weirdest, most inappropriately feminine strut in the whole movie. Slo-mo - naturally - in case you need more time eat that cheesecake. The scene literally exists to shout "Here's your chance, boys. Strip me naked with your eyes." Weird. And from there it feels like the writers basically know her bullet blocking powers are completely inadequate to the tasks of a 'modern' battlefield so they throw her in the deep end. I'm sorry, I don't believe a couple of German gunners with machine guns could keep their grouping inside the radius of that shield IF THEY TRIED TO. The first Act went out of its way to show us she bleeds when shot. Now, points for showing a few bullets sparking off her greaves, and she does eventually crouch down to finally obstruct the German's view of those sweet bare thighs. But this is pretty much the exact scenario where Wonder Woman's hubris should net her a harsh lesson in picking your battles instead of her free pass to glory. It's like the writers wanted to rub my nose in it.

From there we move onto block-to-block fight with a little more tooth and substance. I liked pretty much every shot, although the slo-mo mimicry of 300 did not enhance my experience. I did find myself thinking "Hell yeah I'll play this videogame when it comes out." That tank toss was satisfying but strangely underplayed. That lasso work screamed "mash the triangle button three times" to me . All the effort in act I to build a Amazonian kinesthetic combat vocabulary really paid off here. Culminating in Captain Trevor calling out "Shield!" Like he was paying attention or something.

Victory. Carousing. WW gets some. ...And at that point you know Steve Trevor's pretty much a deader. Because at the meta-plot level there's just zero chance Wonder Woman's going to be presented in any way that keeps the nerd community from thinking of her as an ideal waifu. Honestly that's my biggest gripe with setting it in World War One: they went out of their way to make she doesn't build a supporting cast in the present day. Certainly not any romantic entanglements. I find this handing of the character... cowardly.

Act IV This Rollercoaster Only Goes Down. From little jagged edges in the cutting, I have to think this part must have had some epic combat going on... in the editing room. There's a scene with Steve staring at a servant setting out chairs for a outdoor viewing. Chekov's Gun says there was another scene there. But it's gone in the final cut. I also don't even get Steve's thick German accent... we haven't had to be pelted with that from the actual Germans speaking German up to that point. We're also given another chance to see that Elena Anaya is criminally underused in this movie (and securing the shutout for WW's female cast vs. the lead ).

Horrors ensue. We get a short, not terribly impressive fight, darkness falls so the CG animators don't have to work so hard. Faith is tested. A sword driven completely through a man is mysteriously completely free of dripping blood. Ares appears... Hi old Brit tavern wizard!

WTF.

Ok, I'd been spoilered, so maybe this was more surprising for some, but again: WTF. Absolutely NOTHING is gained from tying these two characters together. Its the kind of pointless literary cleverness that isn't clever at all. The actor was fine as the Brit but he was absolutely silly as the God of War. He looked preposterous in the broken armor after getting smote by Zeus. People complain about the CGFX at this point - I tend to think its preferable to having to look at his face .

I actually liked Ares' power set: the telekinesis along with assembling crude armor, jagged swords, spiked chains and wicked javelins from the detritus of war feels pretty visually coherent and fitting to the character. The actor won't shut up, but I'm trying to tune him out with the explosions anyway.

Battle-battle. Menace-menace. Explosions! Ooo, our protagonist is in trouble! The music swells....

Then they fucking Whedon Formula their way out.



Sorry, this trope is already tired. Put it to bed. With an axe between the eyes. You're not actually saying anything good about women's power with this crap.

Battle-battle. Easy win now that I have the Power of Love. Touching moments. Return to the present. Pave the way for the next movie. All the blockbuster boxes checked off and overall a good time was had.

Then a final "I don't know what the hell that was" visual flourish as she leaps into the air over Paris. Maybe it's supposed to be her finally returning to armored/costumed presence? Because I think she's been a ghost for nearly 100 years.

Had fun. Will likely buy on disk. Will favorably recommend to friends, while urging modest expectations. Entirely ready to watch Marvel Studios kick its ass with Captain Marvel.

And sign me up for a DCMU Amazons movie. That, I want to see!

You undoubtedly get a geeky gold star for Doctor Psycho .

Yes, her own permanent series has seen some talent try to come in and tidy up the place. Personally I liked the JMS reboot aside from a few iffy costuming choices. It gave us the first really modern WW villain in ages before the whole attempt was boo'd off the stage. We got a Blackwater-style torturer-for-hire burned alive by Amazons and seemingly plucked back from the edge of death by Ares. That dude was alarming!

I really don't take "no man'd land" to include "and the village beyond it." Its a totally different tempo and shifts from one man band to ensemble. It also stops relying on "could the 50 of you all keep shooting me in the one place I can't be hurt? Thanks!"

The Ares spoiler didn't matter. From the movie viewer perspective the German general was never a plausible candidate to be Ares (though he does go off on his deific tirade at the party pretty much specifically to keep Diana off in the underbrush). That left a suspect pool of pretty much one, with plenty of bits with him being oddly twitchy.

If they'd killed her dog, I wouldn't have made the comparison. If they'd killed a kid, I wouldn't have made the comparison. If Whedon's gonna keep going back to the well of kill a guy in the third reel then have a female character go on a rampage I'M GONNA MAKE THE COMPARISON. It's not even motivation for the female character - its just shock the audience "oooo, the stakes are real". Its a structure. A Formula. When Zach and Joss are good buddies, and Zach wrote this, I'm gonna say its going to the same well. Its getting monotonous.

But maybe I'm missing some examples of this evidently time honored tradition with male heroes. What did you have in mind for "a main character dies in the final reel and then a protagonist goes on a rampage"?

Ah, reductionism at it's finest. The Heroic Journey - the story that wishes it was all stories-- but isn't. Thankfully.

Which is pretty much why Warcraft fumbled at the box office... and why I loved it.

AuGoose wrote: Yes, her own permanent series has seen some talent try to come in and tidy up the place. Personally I liked the JMS reboot aside from a few iffy costuming choices. It gave us the first really modern WW villain in ages before the whole attempt was boo'd off the stage. We got a Blackwater-style torturer-for-hire burned alive by Amazons and seemingly plucked back from the edge of death by Ares. That dude was alarming!

I think that you're both right in the sense that Ww comic book tend to swing very wildly depending on the time of the year. While this can be said of pretty much every title under the sun, I believe it's particolary noticeable with her because she's supposed to be a big deal, but very few writers seem to get the character right.

AuGoose wrote: I really don't take "no man'd land" to include "and the village beyond it." Its a totally different tempo and shifts from one man band to ensemble. It also stops relying on "could the 50 of you all keep shooting me in the one place I can't be hurt? Thanks!"

I think that the big problem is that the biggest problem with the crossing of no man's land was the pace of the scene: it looked like a weird mixture of slow-motion elements and high speed bullets that ended up giving the impression of a drawn out moment whereas it should have been a comparatively quick paced scene to work out. From the "realism" POV, Augoose has some valid points: even if Diana was working so that everyone concentrated fire on her, it's kind of ridicolous that no bullet was ever aimed below her waist (granted shooting at the belly is often the most effective choice because it's one of the less mobile parts of the human body). Still, I think that as a power show it worked and I appreciated that it wasn't completely self-serving.

AuGoose wrote: The Ares spoiler didn't matter. From the movie viewer perspective the German general was never a plausible candidate to be Ares (though he does go off on his deific tirade at the party pretty much specifically to keep Diana off in the underbrush). That left a suspect pool of pretty much one, with plenty of bits with him being oddly twitchy.

I keep thinking that the big error was to make Ares a singular character with a defined human identity. Playing him as a creepy mastermind -- while untrue to the mythological roots, which mattered zero here -- would have been more effective because it would have pushed the conflict on a different level. If Ares is the incarnation of war, of that part of the human mind that is eager to go out and kill everything that moves, what does this make Wonder Woman?

AuGoose wrote: If they'd killed her dog, I wouldn't have made the comparison. If they'd killed a kid, I wouldn't have made the comparison. If Whedon's gonna keep going back to the well of kill a guy in the third reel then have a female character go on a rampage I'M GONNA MAKE THE COMPARISON. It's not even motivation for the female character - its just shock the audience "oooo, the stakes are real". Its a structure. A Formula. When Zach and Joss are good buddies, and Zach wrote this, I'm gonna say its going to the same well. Its getting monotonous.

But maybe I'm missing some examples of this evidently time honored tradition with male heroes. What did you have in mind for "a main character dies in the final reel and then a protagonist goes on a rampage"?

On this one I side with Twice on one thing: Steve Trevor choose to die here, it wasn't a random death that triggered that final Whedon style asskicking moment, but a deliberate choice. I'm going to call the movie out on one thing: was it really necessary? The entire assumption of the scene was that being hydrogen based the gas would burn damn fast and leave very little behind. If this was true and a single bullet was enough to start the fire would have been so difficult for Steve and his team to lob in a handful of grenades and get the hell out? Especially considering that there were plenty of dead soldiers around? I know this is firdge logic, but I can totally see the scene ending the same way just with Steve getting hit by the blast and dying all the same, but out of bad luck as a casualty of war, an unwilling sacrifice to Ares, not as a guy who put his ass on the line in a stunt that was as likely not to work.