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Krypton

27 Oct 2014 14:42 - 27 Oct 2014 14:44 #38691 by lfan
Krypton was created by lfan
David Goyer (MoS) now seemingly attached to a NEW show called Krypton?!?!

www.bleedingcool.com/2014/10/27/man-of-s...ow-its-name-krypton/

The article speculates that it might be a prequel series in the same vein as Gotham (based in part to its early success). Or maybe he's now attached to the Supergirl show and that is its name (or a working title).

I love comics and superheroes, but I gotta say it's getting pretty crazy now, and I fear they are really pushing the envelope with all these properties going to market at once (although it's not all the same studio or publisher)

By my count, for TV alone, we now have on the air or in development the following superhero properties:

Gotham (Fox)
Arrow (CW)
Flash (CW)
Constantine (CW)
Powers (PS3)
Daredevil (Netflix)
Jessica Jones (Netflix)
Power Man/Iron Fist (Netflix)
Teen Titans (TNT)
Supergirl (CBS)
X-Men Show (Fox)
SHIELD (ABC)
Agent Carter (ABC?)
Krypton (who knows)

Am I forgetting any?

ElF
Last edit: 27 Oct 2014 14:44 by lfan.

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27 Oct 2014 16:43 #38693 by shadar
Replied by shadar on topic Krypton

lfan wrote: David Goyer (MoS) now seemingly attached to a NEW show called Krypton?!?!

www.bleedingcool.com/2014/10/27/man-of-s...ow-its-name-krypton/

The article speculates that it might be a prequel series in the same vein as Gotham (based in part to its early success). Or maybe he's now attached to the Supergirl show and that is its name (or a working title).

I love comics and superheroes, but I gotta say it's getting pretty crazy now, and I fear they are really pushing the envelope with all these properties going to market at once (although it's not all the same studio or publisher)

By my count, for TV alone, we now have on the air or in development the following superhero properties:

Gotham (Fox)
Arrow (CW)
Flash (CW)
Constantine (CW)
Powers (PS3)
Daredevil (Netflix)
Jessica Jones (Netflix)
Power Man/Iron Fist (Netflix)
Teen Titans (TNT)
Supergirl (CBS)
X-Men Show (Fox)
SHIELD (ABC)
Agent Carter (ABC?)
Krypton (who knows)

Am I forgetting any?

ElF


I guess 2014/2015 will be remembered for something unique. But I agree with you on one point... we're going from feast to famine. I'm sure some of these won't pan out and the actual on-air list will be shorter but still, it begs the question of audience saturation. Shows that don't make money will die as usual. This is spreading the dollars very widely. But if the viewing audience is truly ready for an avalanche of superheroes and less of the usual crime shows, then perhaps their will be enough viewers and dollars to go around.

Personally, I think Hollywood has played out the existing ideas and tropes for shows, and superheroes is their agreed new direction. TV and movies. Maybe this is what the teen years of the 21st century will be remembered for (entertainment-wise anyway).

To get all mushy-headed for a moment, perhaps this is how North Americans will handle an increasingly hostile world. Retreat into shows about superheroes who can rise above politics and governments and terrorists/supervillains and all the other things that can bog us down and cut a clean swath through the bullshit. Most cop shows have always done that by greatly oversimplifying the legal system so the Mounties always get their man, so why not superheroes?

But whatever the reason, mass psychology or just a lack of other ideas for storytelling, worn out tropes, whatever, whatever, I just want to see Supergirl on screen in a great show.

Stay tuned...

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27 Oct 2014 16:49 #38694 by BloodRayne89
Replied by BloodRayne89 on topic Krypton
There's also talk of several X-men series in the works too. This combined with Marvel and DC's insane film slates makes one thing obvious to me: Hollywood is creating a bubble with the comic book/superhero properties. And it's gonna burst. We're already seeing it with Sony's Spider-man franchise; they delayed the third film all the way back to 2018 and outright cancelled the fourth film due to "franchise fatigue"

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27 Oct 2014 17:54 #38696 by TwiceOnThursdays
Replied by TwiceOnThursdays on topic Krypton
Actually aren't Iron Fist and Luke Cage supposed to be separate shows, and then there is a follow up "Defenders" after the individual series comes out. So a total of five shows from Netflix and Marvel. (or have they changed that now?)

Though I don't think Netflix is quite the same as Network TV. It will add to the general feast portion of it, but people consume Netflix differently. the most "too much to watch" would affect with Netflix is that people put off watching things for awhile (I'm only now starting to watch Orange is a New Black, and I have a lot of "great TV" that I've not yet got to watch (Breaking Bad, Mad Men, House of Cards).

My only problem with Breaking Bad is that .. it's now a staggering opus and I'm not sure I want to sit through all that. It took forever to wade though Supernatural on Netflix.

The real key here will be keeping different voices out there. Arrow and Flash share a world -- but the tone is a bit different. Constantine *should* feel different from everything else (and they seem like they did a reasonable job), as should Powers. If I have to critique Gotham, it's that I'm far more interested in Gordon's life that than the history of the DCU. I get a bit of a fanboy pulse when I see Bruce Wayne go "ah, so sometimes a vigilante is needed, but this is not how to do it." (in the balloon man episode). But the series can not survive on that. If it's not a great drama about a corrupt city and a man on a crusade to fix it (Gordon) then it will fail (and we know that Gordon fails in the long term too, Gotham is still a cess pool when Batman arrives).

And an interesting take -- there is probably an element of truth. Same with Zombies vs Vampires and viewing them as political debate (which scares you more, rich powerful people or mobs? i.e. Vampires vs. Zombies). Fantasy has always been a good way to sneak up on issues that we can't think about any other way.

I think endemic in the super hero story are interesting concepts: when is being a vigilante correct? What kinds of force should someone use and when? How far would you go to change the system? Gotham is set right in the middle of all that. Gordon just has to let a Lieutenant beat a suspect with a trophy. Nothing he can do. Yet.

Other shows are just fun. Constantine does delve into "what is a hero" pretty well though, simply by him not having the tropes of a hero. It sounds like Supergirl might come at this from a different (and brighter) angle.

SO maybe there is some truth to NA using this as a lens to view how they operate in the modern world, and alternatively, just wish for things to be easier/simpler/more clear cut/solvable. It's hard to face that you are actually part of the problem.

Or, another way, If I turn the dial on Superman a bit, at what point do you start siding with Lex Luthor? How much does Superman have to start meddling in human affairs before you want to stop him?

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27 Oct 2014 18:13 #38700 by Woodclaw
Replied by Woodclaw on topic Krypton
[quote="BloodRayne89" post=38694We're already seeing it with Sony's Spider-man franchise; they delayed the third film all the way back to 2018 and outright cancelled the fourth film due to "franchise fatigue"[/quote]

I'm not sure if that's franchise fatigue or just a case of diminishing returns. The Sony payed a lot of cash for the rights to Spidey and they expected the franchise to be a perfect cash cow that they could milk forever. Unfortunatly the Marvel Studio pushed the bar way up with Avengers and now I think that the execs are revaluating the vaue of the franchise.

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27 Oct 2014 18:15 #38701 by lfan
Replied by lfan on topic Krypton

BloodRayne89 wrote: There's also talk of several X-men series in the works too. This combined with Marvel and DC's insane film slates makes one thing obvious to me: Hollywood is creating a bubble with the comic book/superhero properties. And it's gonna burst. We're already seeing it with Sony's Spider-man franchise; they delayed the third film all the way back to 2018 and outright cancelled the fourth film due to "franchise fatigue"


Well, I didn't even bring up the movie side of things cause that makes it even more overwhelming. I personally think Sony themselves are more to blame with their crappy reboot of the franchise rather than fatigue......

Spiderman II:


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27 Oct 2014 18:20 #38702 by jimbob
Replied by jimbob on topic Krypton
It's not so much franchise fatigue as the ASM films just not being very good. Sony's trying to milk one hero for all its worth, adding in angsty stuff and destiny and all that that other heroes have and it just didn't catch on.

But so long as Marvel studios keeps up their well written and produced films then I don't think it will be a problem.
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27 Oct 2014 18:25 #38703 by lfan
Replied by lfan on topic Krypton
Yeah, the Netflix stuff will culminate in a Defenders vehicle reuniting all the series together. Wasn't sure if it was planned as a series or a movie -- I've heard it as both, but I think they are keeping close-lipped to anything right now that isn't named "Daredevil".....

I agree that the "internet content providers" (PS3, Netflix) probably fall into another category due to their delivery mechanism (on demand), but regardless, it will (I think) be released and added into the mix of "superhero media". I hadn't heard whether NF will release all of them at once or weekly. I thought I had heard Powers was gonna be released in weekly episodes.

You make a great point about the different tones of the shows which I think DOES keep it relatively fresh which hopefully will be enough to build each their own individual, and hopefully overlapping audiences. I, too, see Supergirl as an opportunity to do something "lighter" than the dark, gloomy backdrops like Arrow and Gotham, but only time will tell......

ElF



TwiceOnThursdays wrote: Actually aren't Iron Fist and Luke Cage supposed to be separate shows, and then there is a follow up "Defenders" after the individual series comes out. So a total of five shows from Netflix and Marvel. (or have they changed that now?)

Though I don't think Netflix is quite the same as Network TV. It will add to the general feast portion of it, but people consume Netflix differently. the most "too much to watch" would affect with Netflix is that people put off watching things for awhile (I'm only now starting to watch Orange is a New Black, and I have a lot of "great TV" that I've not yet got to watch (Breaking Bad, Mad Men, House of Cards).

My only problem with Breaking Bad is that .. it's now a staggering opus and I'm not sure I want to sit through all that. It took forever to wade though Supernatural on Netflix.

The real key here will be keeping different voices out there. Arrow and Flash share a world -- but the tone is a bit different. Constantine *should* feel different from everything else (and they seem like they did a reasonable job), as should Powers. If I have to critique Gotham, it's that I'm far more interested in Gordon's life that than the history of the DCU. I get a bit of a fanboy pulse when I see Bruce Wayne go "ah, so sometimes a vigilante is needed, but this is not how to do it." (in the balloon man episode). But the series can not survive on that. If it's not a great drama about a corrupt city and a man on a crusade to fix it (Gordon) then it will fail (and we know that Gordon fails in the long term too, Gotham is still a cess pool when Batman arrives).

And an interesting take -- there is probably an element of truth. Same with Zombies vs Vampires and viewing them as political debate (which scares you more, rich powerful people or mobs? i.e. Vampires vs. Zombies). Fantasy has always been a good way to sneak up on issues that we can't think about any other way.

I think endemic in the super hero story are interesting concepts: when is being a vigilante correct? What kinds of force should someone use and when? How far would you go to change the system? Gotham is set right in the middle of all that. Gordon just has to let a Lieutenant beat a suspect with a trophy. Nothing he can do. Yet.

Other shows are just fun. Constantine does delve into "what is a hero" pretty well though, simply by him not having the tropes of a hero. It sounds like Supergirl might come at this from a different (and brighter) angle.

SO maybe there is some truth to NA using this as a lens to view how they operate in the modern world, and alternatively, just wish for things to be easier/simpler/more clear cut/solvable. It's hard to face that you are actually part of the problem.

Or, another way, If I turn the dial on Superman a bit, at what point do you start siding with Lex Luthor? How much does Superman have to start meddling in human affairs before you want to stop him?

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28 Oct 2014 05:39 - 28 Oct 2014 05:40 #38708 by castor
Replied by castor on topic Krypton
I am seeing three big Trends here.

The first are the obvious Flash, Arrow-which are basically an outreach of Smallville in that they have a kind of set formula-Attractive Young Lead has supernatural adventures-which you know isn't that diffrent then stuff like Tommorow People, The Originals, Vampire Diaries, Etc. A lot of CW shows are of this-well going back to buffy. its a popular basically genre of media-in a lot of ways it lets you do an old fashion soap opera without the soap, and get things that appeal to young women. comicbook in this case is Source, not so much vial elements. Supergirl is looking to be chassing this on CBS. You could argue Constance is to-but Constance isn't really a superhero at all-but well he does have vaugely supernatural adenture.s

Netflix stuff is a varaiation of this trend-but kind of diffrent(powers is here ot). There not a network really-there about selling subcriptions with something that makes a spash.They are going i think after avery specific young male(and female Demographic) who likes comics and nerd stuff-so i am going to guess there to. It should be noted these aren't network shows-i think the order is 10 episodes each-so theres that, becuse to a degree-they don't care people watch any one episode just when you binge watch daredevil one day you feel you get your moneys worth.

The final trend is the "People around superhero stuff"-This is Shield, Gotham Agent Carter. These are basically twists on well establish genres- Cops spy stuff- not really superhero shows at all. This is popualr-becuse as a way of getting a formula networks know in without changing things to much-and well giving it a gimmick. Ive kind of found that i don't much like this very much myself- Shiled doesn't do it for me. But well its doing well enough for a season or two.
Carter is an intresting case here- Its was originally going to play on Netflix-but they moved it to ABC(which owns marvel)--its also the one not really superhero show of the netflix ones.

The first Trend-well you can say where at the peak, but CW been working for it for years where just seeing a lot of it-see how it works for others. The third Trend--is less about superheros then the gimmick, so will see(my guess this is going to last about 5 years). The Netflix one-will see its not a terrible idea fundementally. Its actually pretty intresting.
Last edit: 28 Oct 2014 05:40 by castor.

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28 Oct 2014 08:07 #38710 by castor
Replied by castor on topic Krypton
...Though i am worried in this sense.

The 2010 Wonder Woman animated movie underperformed. A lot of Studio heads at Warner Brothers where quick to say "oh no one wants to see a female character"-the truth-none of the Direct to DVD Animated movies they have released since then has done well. Sales wise its pretty much the most sucessful since its release. The animated DVD market isn't as big as it used to be. It just hit the tail of it.

Supergirl i think will be a success....but....might hit the tail.

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28 Oct 2014 21:09 #38727 by DustyBottums
Replied by DustyBottums on topic Krypton
Yep - and part of the irony is that the animated WW movie is EXCELLENT. If only they had just made THAT as a live-action flick. (and with Keri Russell instead of a bony unknown....but I digress).
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30 Oct 2014 17:03 #38779 by lfan
Replied by lfan on topic Krypton
Didn't wanna start a new thread and it's kinda OT even though its not "superheroes" (but it is comic based).....

Netflix just announced Richie Rich series is coming:

pr.netflix.com/WebClient/getNewsSummary.do?newsId=1701#

ElF

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09 Dec 2014 12:24 #39330 by AJF
Replied by AJF on topic Krypton
Deadline Hollywood reports that it is being developed for SyFy with David Goyer at the helm. It's said to revolve around Superman's grandfather.

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09 Dec 2014 13:27 #39332 by lfan
Replied by lfan on topic Krypton

AJF wrote: Deadline Hollywood reports that it is being developed for SyFy with David Goyer at the helm. It's said to revolve around Superman's grandfather.


Ah, Superman's GRANDFATHER! In other news, "Daxamite Ink Masters" is in development over at Bravo........

ElF

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09 Dec 2014 17:47 #39333 by TwiceOnThursdays
Replied by TwiceOnThursdays on topic Krypton

lfan wrote:

AJF wrote: Deadline Hollywood reports that it is being developed for SyFy with David Goyer at the helm. It's said to revolve around Superman's grandfather.


Ah, Superman's GRANDFATHER! In other news, "Daxamite Ink Masters" is in development over at Bravo........

ElF


This is the official series description:

“Years before the Superman legend we know, the House of El was shamed and ostracized. This series follows The Man of Steel's grandfather as he brings hope and equality to Krypton, turning a planet in disarray into one worthy of giving birth to the greatest Super Hero ever known.”


This is what I call "missing the point". Krypton has bupkis to do with Superman being "the greatest Super hero ever known". I mean his Kryptonian genes give him is powers, but the culture of Krypton has nothing to do with why he's a Hero. you look to Ma and Pa Kent for that.

It also has that whiff of Gotham about it. We see Gordon tilting against windmills, and we KNOW he looses. Yes, he becomes commissioner, but Gotham is still a cess pool, it's why Batman exists. If Gordon REALLY succeeded, there would be no Batman.

Similarly, we know that Jor-El had a semi-respecitible position, but wasn't listened to about the demise of Krypton. So, whatever his grandfather does, it can be a great story, but it sheds no illumination on Superman (which is UNLIKE Gotham, where we ARE seeing things about the future Batman cast, including Bruce Wayne himself).

And across the years, Krypton has slowly devolved into a place where mostly I don't think most modern Americans would like. This changes with various re-interpretations, but mostly I don't think I like most representations of Krypton. Maybe this aims to change that.

Of all the Super-hero show announcements, this is the one that interests me the least and puzzles me the most. It might make a great mini-series.

And Daxamite Ink Masters on Bravo sounds great. ;-)
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09 Dec 2014 18:01 #39334 by lfan
Replied by lfan on topic Krypton
It seems that "superhero TV show" them has spun off an offshoot of the "prequel to superhero show".....I guess Smallville paved the way (what studio wouldn't want a 10 season run?) for Gotham which is doing well. "Amazon" was shot down, but that was supposed to be WW's "coming of age/becoming a hero" story as well. Now, they seemed to have really rewinded the clock to not even featuring/showing Superman in what amounts to a "Superman pre-prequel". Can't say I'm digging the description which sounds like "Dodge City" meets "Elysium"....

ElF

TwiceOnThursdays wrote:

lfan wrote:

AJF wrote: Deadline Hollywood reports that it is being developed for SyFy with David Goyer at the helm. It's said to revolve around Superman's grandfather.


Ah, Superman's GRANDFATHER! In other news, "Daxamite Ink Masters" is in development over at Bravo........

ElF


This is the official series description:

“Years before the Superman legend we know, the House of El was shamed and ostracized. This series follows The Man of Steel's grandfather as he brings hope and equality to Krypton, turning a planet in disarray into one worthy of giving birth to the greatest Super Hero ever known.”


This is what I call "missing the point". Krypton has bupkis to do with Superman being "the greatest Super hero ever known". I mean his Kryptonian genes give him is powers, but the culture of Krypton has nothing to do with why he's a Hero. you look to Ma and Pa Kent for that.

It also has that whiff of Gotham about it. We see Gordon tilting against windmills, and we KNOW he looses. Yes, he becomes commissioner, but Gotham is still a cess pool, it's why Batman exists. If Gordon REALLY succeeded, there would be no Batman.

Similarly, we know that Jor-El had a semi-respecitible position, but wasn't listened to about the demise of Krypton. So, whatever his grandfather does, it can be a great story, but it sheds no illumination on Superman (which is UNLIKE Gotham, where we ARE seeing things about the future Batman cast, including Bruce Wayne himself).

And across the years, Krypton has slowly devolved into a place where mostly I don't think most modern Americans would like. This changes with various re-interpretations, but mostly I don't think I like most representations of Krypton. Maybe this aims to change that.

Of all the Super-hero show announcements, this is the one that interests me the least and puzzles me the most. It might make a great mini-series.

And Daxamite Ink Masters on Bravo sounds great. ;-)

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09 Dec 2014 19:16 #39335 by shadar
Replied by shadar on topic Krypton
I think you nailed the reasons it's a poor storyline. Unless Kryptonian personality is more strongly passed on by genetics than upbringing, at least as compared to humans, then at best this would be a story about how Kal El's father became the man he became.

Now, that could be interesting if they dive into Kryptonian genetics and how they came to be.

The elephant in the room regarding Khryptonians is how they could look and think and largely behave exactly like humans, sharing the identical emotional responses, but still have such incredible physical powers. Independent evolution is ridiculous. The only plausible way is for us to share a very close ancestor. Even then, after all the tweaks to make them so super, why would Krypts not differ in the slightest way (other than perhaps having a much higher percentage of beautiful bodies, at least based on comics and any movie renditions)?

That genetic origins story, if it's done plausibly, would be very interesting to me. I spent a lot of time coming up with the rationale for Velorians looking like they do (they are us except for some carefully engineered additions -- e.g. artificially-produced Chimeras). In as far as that worked (and opinion is divided on that), then something like it could work for Krypts, but I've never heard that discussed. So a storyline that dives into Kryptonian genetics (given a decent and imaginative writer) could break new and interesting ground. Or maybe some distasteful example of genetic engineering and eugenics.

More likely, we will see a thoroughly human drama with some weak SF elements and effects played out on an alien world.

But I remain eternally optimistic of someone coming up with a story with some meat for those of us who try to dig beneath the surface veneer of superhumans.

Shadar

TwiceOnThursdays wrote:

lfan wrote:

AJF wrote: Deadline Hollywood reports that it is being developed for SyFy with David Goyer at the helm. It's said to revolve around Superman's grandfather.


Ah, Superman's GRANDFATHER! In other news, "Daxamite Ink Masters" is in development over at Bravo........

ElF


This is the official series description:

“Years before the Superman legend we know, the House of El was shamed and ostracized. This series follows The Man of Steel's grandfather as he brings hope and equality to Krypton, turning a planet in disarray into one worthy of giving birth to the greatest Super Hero ever known.”


This is what I call "missing the point". Krypton has bupkis to do with Superman being "the greatest Super hero ever known". I mean his Kryptonian genes give him is powers, but the culture of Krypton has nothing to do with why he's a Hero. you look to Ma and Pa Kent for that.

It also has that whiff of Gotham about it. We see Gordon tilting against windmills, and we KNOW he looses. Yes, he becomes commissioner, but Gotham is still a cess pool, it's why Batman exists. If Gordon REALLY succeeded, there would be no Batman.

Similarly, we know that Jor-El had a semi-respecitible position, but wasn't listened to about the demise of Krypton. So, whatever his grandfather does, it can be a great story, but it sheds no illumination on Superman (which is UNLIKE Gotham, where we ARE seeing things about the future Batman cast, including Bruce Wayne himself).

And across the years, Krypton has slowly devolved into a place where mostly I don't think most modern Americans would like. This changes with various re-interpretations, but mostly I don't think I like most representations of Krypton. Maybe this aims to change that.

Of all the Super-hero show announcements, this is the one that interests me the least and puzzles me the most. It might make a great mini-series.

And Daxamite Ink Masters on Bravo sounds great. ;-)

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09 Dec 2014 20:52 - 09 Dec 2014 20:56 #39337 by castor
Replied by castor on topic Krypton
I think your missing the point of this.

The key words are Syfi- The television network.

Scyfi- of Sci Fi network last really big hit was Batlestar Galactica. They have done some stuff, imported some canadian dramas-but well its done okay. But Galactica was the last time i think anyone seriously paid attention to them-such in fact that they tried and failed to bring in back with Blood and Crome.

Batlestar Galactica was a TV show based on an existing Science Fiction property that people at least vaugely remembered and heard of- The Seventies TV show . It took some of the ideas and turned it into a thoughtful kind of action based series that i didn't like as a lot of people but was intresting Science Fiction .

Krypton as a concept is a science fiction property- Its been in a lot of comicbooks movies-Marlan Brando, Peter O'Toole-they have had there go at bringing it to screen. Man of Steel maybe many things but i think the krypton scenes where at least visually impressive. ( i also kind of think they took a lot from the actual narative of the movie, which spends it second act pretending the audience forgot the first act but ehh).Its what people remember of the fifth most popular movie of last year.

So why not make it into a series?
I suspect this isn't going to be a superhereo show-less in fact then somethingl ike gotham. I think this is going to be an alien world series. About people on an alien planet as they go through there lives and probabbly get involved with various court intrigue. There may be a central plot with a giant menace-or it could be something Game of thrones style(three words i suspect got bandied in the pitch). That could be kind of fun-i might even say possible.

Yes we know how it ends-but well that doesn't mean there isn't drama. I could suspect a strong enviromental message, which isn't the worst thing in the world for a show. Perhaps a Rome is burning subtext.

If they could make Man of Steel special effects into a TV show-that could be something. I think doing traditional supergirl punches bad guyspecial effects is probabbly tricky on A TV budget. But if there doing like 10 episodes a season, making an alien world of matte shots and sets is possible enough. Again Game of thrones does a fair amount to look good.

So i think there is a posibility of someting here. David Goyer is a writer who gets a lot of gireif on the internet, but hes been attached to a lot of good to great scripts over the years which people tend to write off(see George Lucas and Star Wars).

i am caustially optomistic.
Last edit: 09 Dec 2014 20:56 by castor.

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09 Dec 2014 23:48 #39339 by TwiceOnThursdays
Replied by TwiceOnThursdays on topic Krypton
I think this is the best possible outcome, that it almost totally ignores the Superman side. It also should have no superpowers (Kryptonians are not powered on Krypton).

And I'll give Goyer flak, but he does turn in good scripts and good work. But he's also got some problems (no one is perfect). I happen to think that the script for Man of Steel wasn't good (it hinged on two scenes that didn't work for me, and they drive the film), but it did have good characters otherwise, great fight scenes, and good effects. But the Krypton portions worked well.

And for all that I give him flak, Goyer at least will take a swing, and tries to do something, if I sometimes disagree with what that is.

But the PR isn't spinning it that way up front -- but for now that's JUST PR, and it's not the actual show.

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09 Dec 2014 23:56 - 09 Dec 2014 23:57 #39340 by TwiceOnThursdays
Replied by TwiceOnThursdays on topic Krypton

shadar wrote: I think you nailed the reasons it's a poor storyline. Unless Kryptonian personality is more strongly passed on by genetics than upbringing, at least as compared to humans, then at best this would be a story about how Kal El's father became the man he became.

Now, that could be interesting if they dive into Kryptonian genetics and how they came to be.

The elephant in the room regarding Khryptonians is how they could look and think and largely behave exactly like humans, sharing the identical emotional responses, but still have such incredible physical powers. Independent evolution is ridiculous. The only plausible way is for us to share a very close ancestor. Even then, after all the tweaks to make them so super, why would Krypts not differ in the slightest way (other than perhaps having a much higher percentage of beautiful bodies, at least based on comics and any movie renditions)?

That genetic origins story, if it's done plausibly, would be very interesting to me. I spent a lot of time coming up with the rationale for Velorians looking like they do (they are us except for some carefully engineered additions -- e.g. artificially-produced Chimeras). In as far as that worked (and opinion is divided on that), then something like it could work for Krypts, but I've never heard that discussed. So a storyline that dives into Kryptonian genetics (given a decent and imaginative writer) could break new and interesting ground. Or maybe some distasteful example of genetic engineering and eugenics.

Shadar


I actually didn't talk about that in my reply, but that is something that interests me.

For one your entire Velorian mythos really works for me. Those are all fantastic, and I like the backstory.

It's patently obvious that Kryptonians have been genetically engineered. And since sometimes they seem surprised they get powers by a yellow sun, or it's something they don't go "of course we were made that way", it seems it was either done to them by something else OR they did it themselves and then had some Fall of Rome type thing and forgot about it.

I say "obvious" because their adaptions have no value on Krypton. It only works under a Yellow or Blue Sun, so there was ZERO reason for evolution to have developed such a complex thing as their power sets (multiple changes). I mean the powers are already fantastic, to think they evolved naturally is like thinking the human eye could have evolved naturally in a world without light, and then repeat this a few dozen other times in slightly related systems.

It's probably not going to be dealt with on Krypton, but to me it's always the elephant in the room thing.

(And while you are at it, it can explain Daxam, and why they look like humans.)
Last edit: 09 Dec 2014 23:57 by TwiceOnThursdays.

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10 Dec 2014 01:24 - 10 Dec 2014 01:35 #39341 by castor
Replied by castor on topic Krypton
Well the traditional explanation of why kryptonians and humans look a like-Jorel or (the krpytonians) did a search of the universe and found that humans and they looked alike and that's why he picked Earth. If it seems coincidental its not.

(this doesn't explain that in some versions of the story that it took clark thousands of years to travel through space and that krypton was destroyed that long ago that was still the case)

(this also doesn't deal with the fact that in the DC universe a lot of aliens look more or less human-ehh)

Its also implied that in some versions of the story that Jor El was hoping that Superman would literally take over humanity like say a Cuckoo and rule the earth as benevolent dictator, which i always thought was a neat idea, which is why he picked earth and not say a red sun planet. Cause...

One of the intresting things that DC has done over the years is thats played around a lot that Krpyton was not a good planet-but well Superman still has rosy colored glasses towards it. Its kind of like Doctor Who(which i do think stole some of there imagery of the timelords from it) of the imperious all powerful world thats cut itself out from hope or the universe-and when they do get a chance to cut loose have a tendency to be meglomaniacs and let power get to there head.

Becuse the bigger anwser...its science fiction.... Of course there humans. its always humans. When ever you see an alien race-there really just human beings.

And a race of imperious very powerful beings who ignore the universe as all there needs are met by invisible servants as they slowly destroy there planet by over mining and over use(which they force everyone to ignore on pain of death)...theres nothing like that in the universe. nope. completely made up.

I do think you could do something with a world like that and a show- to create a sence of a world and a plotline for it. I think the superpower angles you can downplay or remove and still be intresting. Yes we know how it ends, but well theres still stuff there.

Castor
Last edit: 10 Dec 2014 01:35 by castor.

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10 Dec 2014 11:16 #39344 by Woodclaw
Replied by Woodclaw on topic Krypton

castor wrote: Well the traditional explanation of why kryptonians and humans look a like-Jorel or (the krpytonians) did a search of the universe and found that humans and they looked alike and that's why he picked Earth. If it seems coincidental its not.

(this doesn't explain that in some versions of the story that it took clark thousands of years to travel through space and that krypton was destroyed that long ago that was still the case)

(this also doesn't deal with the fact that in the DC universe a lot of aliens look more or less human-ehh)

Its also implied that in some versions of the story that Jor El was hoping that Superman would literally take over humanity like say a Cuckoo and rule the earth as benevolent dictator, which i always thought was a neat idea, which is why he picked earth and not say a red sun planet. Cause...

One of the intresting things that DC has done over the years is thats played around a lot that Krpyton was not a good planet-but well Superman still has rosy colored glasses towards it. Its kind of like Doctor Who(which i do think stole some of there imagery of the timelords from it) of the imperious all powerful world thats cut itself out from hope or the universe-and when they do get a chance to cut loose have a tendency to be meglomaniacs and let power get to there head.

Becuse the bigger anwser...its science fiction.... Of course there humans. its always humans. When ever you see an alien race-there really just human beings.

And a race of imperious very powerful beings who ignore the universe as all there needs are met by invisible servants as they slowly destroy there planet by over mining and over use(which they force everyone to ignore on pain of death)...theres nothing like that in the universe. nope. completely made up.

I do think you could do something with a world like that and a show- to create a sence of a world and a plotline for it. I think the superpower angles you can downplay or remove and still be intresting. Yes we know how it ends, but well theres still stuff there.

Castor


For quite some time I've toyed with the idea that Kryptonians were actually humans from a very far future and/or a divergent timeline, which would explain the looks. When dealing with superluminal speeds it's possible to get time and space vaguely mixed up. :p

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10 Dec 2014 15:44 #39345 by shadar
Replied by shadar on topic Krypton
Very far future and/or divergent timeline is a potential way to explain Krypts, but that's still more or less the "wave the magic wand" explanation. Suitable for comic books of fifty years ago, but not satisfactory in a world today that largely holds to scientific, deconstructive logic. We study ancient DNA and fossils and other evolutionary evidence to try to determine our origin and makeup. Medicine, along with all forms of science, operate on the principle that if you can just look deep enough into something, if you can deconstruct the layers of information, you can figure out how something works. That there is no ultimate limit to that process. That we don't need to resort to magic (in any of its trappings, including religion) to explain ourselves.

In this modern era, many of us need a bit of that kind of rigor in our fantasy as well. Even Tolkein, the master of High Fantasy, invented a rich background and origin story for each of his races. He didn't use science but rather an exhaustive analysis of language and myth to go back and create his races, right down to which of the Valar created the Dwarfs (for example) and why he did that, including examining their beliefs, their weaknesses, their strengths, their purpose, etc..

Superheroes are another form of fantasy, but today they need to be scientifically explainable (even if its pseudo-science) in a consistent and rigorous way. In the case of Krypts, clearly that means starting with humans (or a shared ancestor) and showing how they became what they are, and what that means for humanity today. Even more satisfactory, to explore what it means to be human in a SF context.

Kal El has always been portrayed as the most humane superhero of all, thanks to Ma and Pa Kent's upbringing. But none of us are exclusively a product of our nurturing. We were born with genetic predispositions to certain mental and emotional traits. The combination of nature and nurture defines us. So Kryptonians, at least in Kal El's line, were clearly capable of traits that we would consider the best of humanity.

Kara is even more challenging given her nature AND her nurture are purely Kryptonian. Yet she plops into modern human society with no more of a problem than we might experience if we went and lived in a very foreign country here on Earth. Learn the language, learn the customs and their shared historical myths, and you're good to go, because we're all humans. Kara fits in just as easily. Yet she comes from a population with unexplained origins who have been estranged from Terrans for all of eternity.

I believe that needs more explanation for modern audiences, which can be easily developed if someone puts the effort into it.

But then, I'm an engineer who loves science, and more than a little geeky when it comes to my fantasies. In that context, I believe that if we analyzed Kryptonian DNA, then we could figure out what makes them tick. And then... perhaps we could someday inject those same changes into an ordinary human via scientific and highly technical methods (e.g. recombinant DNA manipulation, etc.)

I need that before my fantasy can run away with me.

So back to the potential Krypton TV show. This is a perfect opportunity to develop the backstory, the social, political and genetic background of Kryptonians, in a dramatic way. Goyer is capable of writing that if its important to the show. We viewers will suspend much of our disbelief to help him, as long as he doesn't take any shortcuts. Pseudo-science should be a rigorous discipline, even if it depends on discoveries that we humans haven't made yet, and on knowledge that we do not yet have, but plausibly could someday gain.

Shadar (who is flying his geek flag today)

Woodclaw wrote:

castor wrote: Well the traditional explanation of why kryptonians and humans look a like-Jorel or (the krpytonians) did a search of the universe and found that humans and they looked alike and that's why he picked Earth. If it seems coincidental its not.

(this doesn't explain that in some versions of the story that it took clark thousands of years to travel through space and that krypton was destroyed that long ago that was still the case)

(this also doesn't deal with the fact that in the DC universe a lot of aliens look more or less human-ehh)

Its also implied that in some versions of the story that Jor El was hoping that Superman would literally take over humanity like say a Cuckoo and rule the earth as benevolent dictator, which i always thought was a neat idea, which is why he picked earth and not say a red sun planet. Cause...

One of the intresting things that DC has done over the years is thats played around a lot that Krpyton was not a good planet-but well Superman still has rosy colored glasses towards it. Its kind of like Doctor Who(which i do think stole some of there imagery of the timelords from it) of the imperious all powerful world thats cut itself out from hope or the universe-and when they do get a chance to cut loose have a tendency to be meglomaniacs and let power get to there head.

Becuse the bigger anwser...its science fiction.... Of course there humans. its always humans. When ever you see an alien race-there really just human beings.

And a race of imperious very powerful beings who ignore the universe as all there needs are met by invisible servants as they slowly destroy there planet by over mining and over use(which they force everyone to ignore on pain of death)...theres nothing like that in the universe. nope. completely made up.

I do think you could do something with a world like that and a show- to create a sence of a world and a plotline for it. I think the superpower angles you can downplay or remove and still be intresting. Yes we know how it ends, but well theres still stuff there.

Castor


For quite some time I've toyed with the idea that Kryptonians were actually humans from a very far future and/or a divergent timeline, which would explain the looks. When dealing with superluminal speeds it's possible to get time and space vaguely mixed up. :p

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11 Dec 2014 00:13 #39348 by ace191
Replied by ace191 on topic Krypton
No Superheroes? What about Nightwing and Flamebird and their little belt rocket packs from the sixties?

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