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There is a new Doctor on the way!

16 Jul 2017 22:31 - 16 Jul 2017 22:58 #55278 by Monty
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Last Edit: 16 Jul 2017 22:58 by Monty.
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16 Jul 2017 23:00 #55279 by fats
fats replied the topic: There is a new Doctor on the way!


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17 Jul 2017 00:29 #55282 by Markiehoe
Markiehoe replied the topic: There is a new Doctor on the way!
This series desperately needs some new blood.

I am hoping this heralds a new better direction.

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17 Jul 2017 00:39 #55283 by fats
fats replied the topic: There is a new Doctor on the way!
I agree the last series was very poor, they wasted Peter's talent and the companion is the worst one ever.

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17 Jul 2017 00:41 #55284 by Markiehoe
Markiehoe replied the topic: There is a new Doctor on the way!
Nardole was the breakout star of that series.

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17 Jul 2017 11:36 #55286 by rednecko
rednecko replied the topic: There is a new Doctor on the way!
Really excited for this change. We are also getting a new Showrunner (already announced) and Companion (Not announced and we may have a Doctor without a companion). I think the Showrunner will make affect this change because Doctor Who is a Cinematic TV show meaning it needs good writing, directing and acting to make it work.

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17 Jul 2017 15:58 #55287 by five_red
five_red replied the topic: There is a new Doctor on the way!
I kind of dropped out of watching Doctor Who a while back. I was really pumped when Steven Moffat took over because his episodes had been by the far the best written in the early years of the rebooted show, but sadly as a showrunner I quickly got tired of SM's convoluted storylines that strung the viewer along but then didn't deliver. By the time Capaldi became the Doctor I was so weary of the formula that I decided it was time to drop out. So fingers crossed a new showrunner will revitalise the series.

As far as the Doctor being a woman, I have mixed feelings. I'm not violently against Doctor Who being a woman, but I'm wondering why people are heralding it as a victory for Feminism. I guess that's just the modern state of third-wave Feminism today -- anything that upsets the dreaded MRAs (Men's Rights Advocates) is seen as a victory. But is a female Doctor really a good thing for women? My reservations come in two forms:

First, fantasy and sci-fi has a bloody awful track record when it comes to women. Many many popular female characters are just gender flipped versions of male characters... aka distaff counterparts (to use the trope term.) Supergirl is great, but she began life as a y-chromosome flipped version of Superman. Batgirl began as a flipped Batman. She-Hulk was a gender flipped Hulk. On tv, the Bionic Woman was a spin-off from the Six Million Dollar Man. In movies, the Invisible Woman and Bride of Frankenstein were... well, you get the idea. And so on... and so on...

Even as a kid I always thought this was weak, and disrespectful to women -- surely what the world needed was female characters that were created from the start to be women (and preferably written by woman!!) We need more Wonder Women, not Supergirls. So when I heard about the female Doctor I was transported back to the 60s / 70s, when the only way to get a popular female in a fantasy genre was to piggy-back on an established male franchise -- and then came the uncomfortable realisation that nothing had really changed in the intervening decades. Sure, there are more great female-originated characters today, but how many of them were being promoted to make them as successful as the males? The 1970s rule still holds that to get a truly popular woman character in fantasy comics, tv, movies etc, it's quicker to make a successful male then flip the gender.

As such I have serious doubts that distaff counterparts are -- ultimately -- a good thing for Feminism. And as such I don't see much equality value in a distaff Doctor..! Surely women deserve more than hand-me-down male characters..?!?!!

Second, I sense a whiff of tokenism in the air. When Who fans say they want "a female Doctor" that's just what they mean - a (singular) female Doctor. A novelty woman, and then we go back to predominantly men again, But hold on, we've had a dozen men on the trot -- surely the next six Doctors at least should be women just to even things up(?) If that was the case then I'd be all in favour, but I suspect that isn't what many fans want.

Now, if the show was to claim that gender swapping regenerations are rare, so the Doctor is stuck as a woman for the foreseeable future, then I'd be all in favour -- but I suspect now that we've had the token woman we'll go back to men for the following three or four Doctors. Is this really all women can aspire to? I think we should campaign to keep the Doctor as a woman, at least for a couple of decades, otherwise what's the point of making her female at all..?

Rant over.


R5

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17 Jul 2017 17:56 #55291 by shadar
shadar replied the topic: There is a new Doctor on the way!

five_red wrote: I kind of dropped out of watching Doctor Who a while back. I was really pumped when Steven Moffat took over because his episodes had been by the far the best written in the early years of the rebooted show, but sadly as a showrunner I quickly got tired of SM's convoluted storylines that strung the viewer along but then didn't deliver. By the time Capaldi became the Doctor I was so weary of the formula that I decided it was time to drop out. So fingers crossed a new showrunner will revitalise the series.

As far as the Doctor being a woman, I have mixed feelings. I'm not violently against Doctor Who being a woman, but I'm wondering why people are heralding it as a victory for Feminism. I guess that's just the modern state of third-wave Feminism today -- anything that upsets the dreaded MRAs (Men's Rights Advocates) is seen as a victory. But is a female Doctor really a good thing for women? My reservations come in two forms:

First, fantasy and sci-fi has a bloody awful track record when it comes to women. Many many popular female characters are just gender flipped versions of male characters... aka distaff counterparts (to use the trope term.) Supergirl is great, but she began life as a y-chromosome flipped version of Superman. Batgirl began as a flipped Batman. She-Hulk was a gender flipped Hulk. On tv, the Bionic Woman was a spin-off from the Six Million Dollar Man. In movies, the Invisible Woman and Bride of Frankenstein were... well, you get the idea. And so on... and so on...

Even as a kid I always thought this was weak, and disrespectful to women -- surely what the world needed was female characters that were created from the start to be women (and preferably written by woman!!) We need more Wonder Women, not Supergirls. So when I heard about the female Doctor I was transported back to the 60s / 70s, when the only way to get a popular female in a fantasy genre was to piggy-back on an established male franchise -- and then came the uncomfortable realisation that nothing had really changed in the intervening decades. Sure, there are more great female-originated characters today, but how many of them were being promoted to make them as successful as the males? The 1970s rule still holds that to get a truly popular woman character in fantasy comics, tv, movies etc, it's quicker to make a successful male then flip the gender.

As such I have serious doubts that distaff counterparts are -- ultimately -- a good thing for Feminism. And as such I don't see much equality value in a distaff Doctor..! Surely women deserve more than hand-me-down male characters..?!?!!

Second, I sense a whiff of tokenism in the air. When Who fans say they want "a female Doctor" that's just what they mean - a (singular) female Doctor. A novelty woman, and then we go back to predominantly men again, But hold on, we've had a dozen men on the trot -- surely the next six Doctors at least should be women just to even things up(?) If that was the case then I'd be all in favour, but I suspect that isn't what many fans want.

Now, if the show was to claim that gender swapping regenerations are rare, so the Doctor is stuck as a woman for the foreseeable future, then I'd be all in favour -- but I suspect now that we've had the token woman we'll go back to men for the following three or four Doctors. Is this really all women can aspire to? I think we should campaign to keep the Doctor as a woman, at least for a couple of decades, otherwise what's the point of making her female at all..?

Rant over.


R5



Heard all the same arguments when black actors showed up in movies (still do on some news outlets). Tokenism, etc. All of which is correct at the first level.

Breaking down walls and injecting new racial or gender roles into established roles is always artificial and forced at first. But over time, it grows.

Superheroines looked VERY strange in the beginning too. A female Superman? Ridiculous. He was all about huge muscles and superstrength and bullets bouncing off his steel-hard chest. What woman would want that? What man would want a woman made of steel? And a race of Amazons? Nutty. Women can't be warriors. They don't have the bones or muscles for it due to lack of testosterone.

It's taken a long time, but now both are just fine for the average viewer/reader. Now we even have female soldiers moving slowly into front-line grunt soldier roles in the real world. Not to mention female boxers and MMA fighters. Hard-core testosterone sports, or so the thinking went.

Equality looks strange in the eyes of those who have had intrinsic gender or racial advantages. But the Millennial generation basically gets it because they grew up with it. And given the size of the Millennial generation, second only to the Boomers who are dying off, the changes are going to come with increasing speed as Millennials become the primary audience for a lot of shows (e.g. Supergirl TV).

Given the mess we men have made (and continue to make) of the world, it's time for women to have an equal voice and presence in every way. We just have to get past the tokenism part.

Shadar

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17 Jul 2017 19:31 - 17 Jul 2017 19:33 #55293 by kikass2014
kikass2014 replied the topic: There is a new Doctor on the way!
I won’t get into the whole feminist angle (especially 3rd wave feminism, that’s just retardo imo), but I will say that I am looking forward to the new Doctor.

As a big Dr. Who fan, I was pleasantly surprised when they revealed the new Doctor after the men’s final. Not because it would shut up all those feminist/PC voices (at least for a while), but because, to me, it felt “done right”.

To explain, and in relation to tokenism, I don’t think that applies here, imo. If they wanted to cast a “female Doctor”, then they would have just grabbed any woman and shoved her into the role. But the casting of Jodie Whittaker seems well thought out.

Firstly, she is a talented actress, having stared in Attack the Block and specifically, Broadchurch. Which leads to my second point.

Chris Chibnall is taking over from Moffat as showrunner. As such, you want people you can trust and know. So Jodie coming over from Broadchurch makes the transition easier/more comfortable. Until he finds his feet so to speak.

So for me, the casting makes perfect sense on every level. It adds a new dynamic to the show, allowing for new ideas and stories to be told, from a storytelling perspective. And it works for behind the scenes also.

Capaldi was great as The Doctor, even if he was serviced with some poor scripts at times. My personal favorite was Matt Smith. I loved the energy and dynamism of those stories. Sure they were over the top, but I would argue that Moffat hit more then he missed, with his big setups and payoffs. I’m hoping they go back to that style with the new series, with a younger Doctor.

And, if nothing else, personally, at least Jodie Whittaker is sexy as f..........

Just my 2 cents as always :)

Peace.

/K
Last Edit: 17 Jul 2017 19:33 by kikass2014.
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18 Jul 2017 09:17 #55306 by five_red
five_red replied the topic: There is a new Doctor on the way!

shadar wrote: Heard all the same arguments when black actors showed up in movies (still do on some news outlets). Tokenism, etc. All of which is correct at the first level.


To clarify: my problem with the tokenism is not that there's a female Doctor, it is that many fans really just seem to want a (single) female Doctor. Almost as a novelty.

My argument is that, for the change to have any significance from a women-in-scifi point of view, they should keep the character as a woman for at least the next few regenerations. Make the change more permanent. They've had twelve guys on the trot, how about at least half a dozen women before we go back to blokes again? You could easily explain this away by claiming that sex changes during regenerations are rare, allowing the Doctor to remain as a woman for the next couple of decades. I suspect, however, that this isn't what many pro-female-Doctor fans have in mind (?)


R5

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18 Jul 2017 10:37 #55309 by shadar
shadar replied the topic: There is a new Doctor on the way!

five_red wrote:

shadar wrote: Heard all the same arguments when black actors showed up in movies (still do on some news outlets). Tokenism, etc. All of which is correct at the first level.


To clarify: my problem with the tokenism is not that there's a female Doctor, it is that many fans really just seem to want a (single) female Doctor. Almost as a novelty.

My argument is that, for the change to have any significance from a women-in-scifi point of view, they should keep the character as a woman for at least the next few regenerations. Make the change more permanent. They've had twelve guys on the trot, how about at least half a dozen women before we go back to blokes again? You could easily explain this away by claiming that sex changes during regenerations are rare, allowing the Doctor to remain as a woman for the next couple of decades. I suspect, however, that this isn't what many pro-female-Doctor fans have in mind (?)


R5


Ok, I understand now. Thanks. Agree that a single, token female as Doctor and then back to men for the future would be tokenism and fan service. Didn't understand that's what the fans were looking for. Seems to me that if the Doc's gender isn't guaranteed during regen, then it should flip back and forth.

Shadar

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18 Jul 2017 14:58 #55311 by Woodclaw
Woodclaw replied the topic: There is a new Doctor on the way!
I've read a few very batshit crazy reactions to this announcement and, I have to say, I'm kind of stunned at the number of people who makes a big deal out of this decision.

So far the only "against" opinion that I found reasonable is from a co-worker who pointed out some elements linked to the classic image of the Doctor: "The original Doctor (William Hartnell) was written as a very male-based character. His being alien and ancient was a metaphor for him being a fatherly figure to his companions (which were the characters the audience was supposed to identify with) and, like the ideal father he was wise but also grumpy and incompehensible. When they introduced the regeneration -- a great idea -- the Doctor become less of a father and more of a crazy and cranky uncle (Patrick Troughton), then a bond-ish action hero (Jon Pertwee). Some of the Doctors (mostly Colin Baker and Sylvester McCoy) were more asexual, but no Doctor included clearly female elements in his characterization."

Now I'm not going to say he's right, because I think that there's one problem with this premise: it's based on the original version of a character from 1963 that has been throughtly modified over the years. In particular, during Matt Smith's tenure and from some of the books we got information about another Time Lord (the Corsair) who regenerated in male and female bodies, this marks the change in gender as a distinct possibility although it's not clear how likely it is.

Personally I'm withholding judgement because I believe that a lot has to change about the show to make this work, but we haven't seen anything yet.

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18 Jul 2017 15:57 #55313 by fats
fats replied the topic: There is a new Doctor on the way!
Spoke to Jodie, she's loving the attention and is looking forward to filming the next series.

Fats
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18 Jul 2017 16:15 #55316 by kikass2014
kikass2014 replied the topic: There is a new Doctor on the way!
That's actually a good point. Should this be a one off? Should we have a "string" of female "Doctors" in a row? Or should it be a case of 50/50, you never know if it will be a man or a woman?

Personally, I don't mind either of those scenarios. Though having the Doctor female for several regenerations in a row, would probably be the least favorable option for me. I kinda like the idea that it should be 50/50, Keeps an element of surprise every time a regen happens.

Ofc, this can be said to also open up another debate. Can the Doctor regenerate into a black man? Or an Asian man? Or a black woman? I know this is gonna/most likely has come up. My answer to that is emphatically NO. Make the Doctor male or female, but imo the Doctor should not change race.

Peace.

/K

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18 Jul 2017 16:17 #55317 by kikass2014
kikass2014 replied the topic: There is a new Doctor on the way!

Spoke to Jodie, she's loving the attention and is looking forward to filming the next series.

Fats


Nice :) And I look forward to seeing her in the new series :D

If you speak to her again, my advice to her is - brush up on your Who-lore. You will need it :D

Peace.

/K

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18 Jul 2017 23:54 - 19 Jul 2017 00:22 #55327 by Monty
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Last Edit: 19 Jul 2017 00:22 by Monty.

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18 Jul 2017 23:56 #55328 by Agent00Soul
Agent00Soul replied the topic: There is a new Doctor on the way!
I think it's the best way to save the show actually. When the BBC rebooted the series, thanks to David Tennant and Matt Smith, as well as the more mainstream popularity of sci-fi/fantasy, they picked up an entirely new demographic: girls, preteen to 20something. After Smith resigned, showrunner Steven Moffat did a brave thing and decided not to regenerate the Doctor into another happy-go-lucky lad, but return the character to its roots and cast Peter Capaldi, a 55-year-old who was only a year younger than William Hartnell was when he took the part in 1963. This was to get back to the idea of the Doctor as he originally was: a cranky older man.

I thought Capaldi, despite having some really bad stories, was an excellent Doctor. I do wish they hired him for one more season (4 or 5 seasons is my personal idea for the best Doctor arc). But during his run, the show lost about 20% of its ratings. Most of those who left were the new demographic. I think the days of an older Doctor are over for good. But at the same time, just falling back and regenerating into another Tennant/Smith wouldn't be very interesting: another young man playing the Doctor so soon would be a backward step for the show.

So where are you going to go? How about some genuinely new territory. They've been preparing us for it with The Corsair and especially with Missy so it can't be much of a surprise. A 30something woman is definitely something that they've never done, so why not?

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19 Jul 2017 04:06 #55335 by Mynn
Mynn replied the topic: There is a new Doctor on the way!
I always enjoy seeing women break the mould of the old standard but even I will admit, this is bold and risky given how long the franchise leaned on a male lead.

What type of audience will this new doctor bring in and what personality will she have? Now that the doctor has transcended gender, will she be straight? Bi? Gay? Asexual? So much potential but risky too if they mismanage the story. Might attract audiences on Nixalfia though.

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19 Jul 2017 16:38 #55343 by Agent00Soul
Agent00Soul replied the topic: There is a new Doctor on the way!

five_red wrote:

shadar wrote: Heard all the same arguments when black actors showed up in movies (still do on some news outlets). Tokenism, etc. All of which is correct at the first level.


To clarify: my problem with the tokenism is not that there's a female Doctor, it is that many fans really just seem to want a (single) female Doctor. Almost as a novelty.

My argument is that, for the change to have any significance from a women-in-scifi point of view, they should keep the character as a woman for at least the next few regenerations. Make the change more permanent. They've had twelve guys on the trot, how about at least half a dozen women before we go back to blokes again? You could easily explain this away by claiming that sex changes during regenerations are rare, allowing the Doctor to remain as a woman for the next couple of decades. I suspect, however, that this isn't what many pro-female-Doctor fans have in mind (?)


R5


I agree with this. Let's keep the Doctor a woman for a while. They've run the gamut of male personality types for the past half-century, so let's change it up.

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19 Jul 2017 22:33 - 19 Jul 2017 22:33 #55354 by Woodclaw
Woodclaw replied the topic: There is a new Doctor on the way!
And this is the official answer from BBC.


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