LaPorte Caves

I'm looking forward to more of the dark side, whether it comes from Julia or the family. Taking in Howard's closing thoughts in the last chapter, I have an inkling where you might take this great work, but I could be (probably I am) wrong!

Thank you circes, I enjoyed the new revised chapter. It was refreshing to see more of Julia's hesitation about accepting her new abilities; seeing how she processed it was very enlightening. Some of the dialog that was carried over in chapters 13 and 14 seemed to be a little at odds with her newfound clarity at how this was affecting Howard, but it can be overlooked. Sallen's character offered a great way for Julia to get her thoughts in order and give some more background on the new world. I thought there was some great foreshadowing on the benefits of working with a Nourished woman instead of against her.

Howard did seem to accept staying longer a little quicker than I would have thought, but I realized it makes more sense if you think his thoughts at the end of the chapter betray his inner plan to escape once Julia shows him the way back to Kentucky. I don't see him willingly returning once shown the door, even with him still feeling strongly for Julia, which I thinks sets up the stage for conflict between the two very well.

One thing that wasn't touched on though was how Julia would handle going back to normal even if they only stayed the few weeks. I would have expected Howard to question her a bit more on how she thought she could give all this up to go back to Earth and be the average woman again. She says she could because of how much she loves Howard, but there doesn't seem to be any doubt in her mind about it at all.

Overall, I like the direction the story is taking. Julia seems a bit more humble, Howard still has his spark but is willing to negotiate (on the surface anyway), there's some great foreshadowing, and there's more back story given to the world. Thank you again for continuing the tale!

First, thanks circes for continuing this story. I know this rewrite and new chapters were a struggle at times. I can say just one thing, it sure looks good and worth it to me!

I have not read any of the comments yet. So here is my take….

Last December I reread all the chapters, partly to find new possible scenes to illustrate, but also because I really like the read. So when I saw the new chapters posted, I quickly skimmed #11 and read straight through the 3 new ones. You did a great job. The time given to the reflections of both Howard and Julia on how they got to this point in their relationship really work. Using Scallan as an “obi wan kenobi” foil for Julia to rethink her past actions was great. Of course he has a big one and Julia has to just take care of her uncontrollable “urges”!! The additional insight into men and women’s relationships in this different world was a good add to the story.

While Julia had worse transgressions to ponder, Howard still needed to take a good look at himself too.

Looking forward to how they continue to adapt to this new world, plus reading more about my favorite amazon, Julia.

Thanks again circes,

Best,

twitch

Wow, the new chapters are excellent! Thanks for continuing the story. I'm back to hoping for a happy ending for Julia and Howard. Or if it's a sad ending, it would be a genuinely sad one.

I think Julia is still kidding herself somewhat about what kind of life Howard could have in that world. She says there's no crime against claimed men, but it seems like there are plenty of ways for him to get hurt or killed that are completely legal. I wonder what she'd say if Howard tells her she almost killed him in her sleep. Howard, for his part, still seems to think that he can bull his way through this on sheer stubbornness (although it's hard to know exactly what his closing thoughts in the last chapter meant.)

Much is made in the story of Howard being Julia's savior and protector. Ironically, I think she needs him now more than ever. This is looking like something of a battle for Julia's soul. How easy would it be to give in to the temptations of this world? She can do anything her heart desires, there's an endless stream of men lining up to answer her every whim, and everybody tells her fulfilling her own pleasures is some kind of noble duty. How easy it would be to crush Howard (metaphorically or literally) or forget him entirely.

circes_cup wrote: One logistical note: the original Chapter 12 will remain in the Library here, labeled "12 - OLD", or something like that. Having left it in the public domain for five months, I did not feel at liberty to simply take it down. For those of you that liked the darkness in the original 12, do not despair. There is more darkness coming.

After running panicked and bloody through a swamp and the botanical equivalent of razor wire, I don't know how much darker this really has to get, but I trust where you're taking it.

Thanks for these three chapter in a quick sequence :-D
It was a nice reading. Curious about what happens next

Oh, one critique, if I may, circes. One of the traditional hallmarks of these stories is the protagonist discovering her new abilities. Julia has apparently discovered how to use her pheromones to entice (to put it mildly) men, but you just skipped over that whole event and only have her describing it in passing. After the joy of running, swimming, learning the language, and everything else, it seems odd to leave this out as if it's no big deal. Maybe you think that sort of scene has been done to death already, or you wanted these new chapters to be more about bringing Julia and Howard together, but it would have been interesting to see what you'd done with it.

Pepper, Twitch, Torque, Monty, Sam+Norton, Dru -- thank you all for your comments! I'm glad to know that you liked the chapters, and even better, just glad to see that people are reading it (there's no other way to really tell!).

As usual with me, this story has grown larger than I originally intended. There were a number of concepts introduced in the first eleven chapters that were overdue some explanation. And at the same time, I wanted to lay the groundwork for the significant amount of plot yet to come. These chapters were intended to do both of those things, and as a result, they were a bit slower and more conversational than my usual fare. I hope to pick up the tempo shortly.

Thanks again, guys.

Pepper wrote: Oh, one critique, if I may, circes. One of the traditional hallmarks of these stories is the protagonist discovering her new abilities. Julia has apparently discovered how to use her pheromones to entice (to put it mildly) men, but you just skipped over that whole event and only have her describing it in passing. After the joy of running, swimming, learning the language, and everything else, it seems odd to leave this out as if it's no big deal. Maybe you think that sort of scene has been done to death already, or you wanted these new chapters to be more about bringing Julia and Howard together, but it would have been interesting to see what you'd done with it.

That's a great point. It would be fun to explore that ability, which Julia has used in the heat of the moment but never deliberately. I may well be able to work that in later in the story.

AuGoose wrote: With the introduction of the pheromones, it seems like there's definitely going to come a moment when Julia realizes Howard didn't have the slightest choice in the matter of his response to being borrowed . Kind of hard to hold infidelity against a guy when you and every other woman on the planet can strip him of agency at whim. Somehow I don't think a horny 18 year old raised to think men are little more than pets was showing the restrain Julia's trying to exhibit...

So much has happened since Howard was borrowed that I don't necessarily get the impression that Julia is still nursing that particular grudge, much less reevaluating Howard's culpability for it. She seems to have shed her old self almost completely, and is more mad that Howard expresses any doubts about the new Julia. Plus, she's made such a point of how he needs to adopt the local customs that it would be unreasonable to get mad at him for having done just that (although emotional hurts don't usually give way to rational analysis.)

Pepper wrote:

AuGoose wrote: With the introduction of the pheromones, it seems like there's definitely going to come a moment when Julia realizes Howard didn't have the slightest choice in the matter of his response to being borrowed . Kind of hard to hold infidelity against a guy when you and every other woman on the planet can strip him of agency at whim. Somehow I don't think a horny 18 year old raised to think men are little more than pets was showing the restrain Julia's trying to exhibit...

So much has happened since Howard was borrowed that I don't necessarily get the impression that Julia is still nursing that particular grudge, much less reevaluating Howard's culpability for it. She seems to have shed her old self almost completely, and is more mad that Howard expresses any doubts about the new Julia. Plus, she's made such a point of how he needs to adopt the local customs that it would be unreasonable to get mad at him for having done just that (although emotional hurts don't usually give way to rational analysis.)

I agree that Julia probably has let the Howard infidelity issue go, especially as she has had multiple transgressions with multiple men since. A big issue will be if Howard can deal with Julia's "need" to copulate multiple times a day with multiple partners. I find the whole issue that the women cannot fight this "need" to be rather interesting. They are so smart and strong, etc., but when it comes to sex they are like a moose in rut, but their rutting season is the whole year, every day. I find that a curious weakness in my book.

Now don't get me wrong, I would love to help with her needs!!

AuGoose wrote: Welcome back ,

With the introduction of the pheromones, it seems like there's definitely going to come a moment when Julia realizes Howard didn't have the slightest choice in the matter of his response to being borrowed . Kind of hard to hold infidelity against a guy when you and every other woman on the planet can strip him of agency at whim. Somehow I don't think a horny 18 year old raised to think men are little more than pets was showing the restrain Julia's trying to exhibit...

Wasn't this already addressed in like chapter 4 or something? Just before Julia first takes the Nourishment, Mindy explained to her about the pheromones, and that Howard really had no choice in the situation.

“Whenever we’re turned on, we release pheromones that turn the wills of weaker beings to jelly.” Mindy spread her legs slightly, the fabric of her miniskirt stretching to accommodate the expansion. “See?”
The delicate wisps of musk that had reached Julia’s nose earlier were now replaced by a thick cloud. Julia’s heart raced. Her breathing shallowed. And her thoughts scattered like bowling pins tumbling away from a well-aimed ball. I’ve got to have her, Julia’s mind screamed. I’ve GOT to. Her hands flailed about seeking the floor anything that could hold her.
“That’s what happened to Howard in the bath. He tried to resist touching me. I don’t know why, but he really tried. It was so cute. But the more he tried to deny his desire, the more it turned me on, so there was no hope for him. I completely crushed his will. Having that kind of power over men – it’s is my favorite part of being Nourished.”
Julia felt another wave of desire hit her. I can’t let myself do this, Julia objected to herself! Howard did this and I hate him for it. Now, I’m fantasizing about committing the same sort of betrayal myself! But her will felt no sturdier than a drinking straw tasked with propping up a brick.

twitch99 wrote:

Pepper wrote:

AuGoose wrote: With the introduction of the pheromones, it seems like there's definitely going to come a moment when Julia realizes Howard didn't have the slightest choice in the matter of his response to being borrowed . Kind of hard to hold infidelity against a guy when you and every other woman on the planet can strip him of agency at whim. Somehow I don't think a horny 18 year old raised to think men are little more than pets was showing the restrain Julia's trying to exhibit...

So much has happened since Howard was borrowed that I don't necessarily get the impression that Julia is still nursing that particular grudge, much less reevaluating Howard's culpability for it. She seems to have shed her old self almost completely, and is more mad that Howard expresses any doubts about the new Julia. Plus, she's made such a point of how he needs to adopt the local customs that it would be unreasonable to get mad at him for having done just that (although emotional hurts don't usually give way to rational analysis.)

I agree that Julia probably has let the Howard infidelity issue go, especially as she has had multiple transgressions with multiple men since. A big issue will be if Howard can deal with Julia's "need" to copulate multiple times a day with multiple partners. I find the whole issue that the women cannot fight this "need" to be rather interesting. They are so smart and strong, etc., but when it comes to sex they are like a moose in rut, but their rutting season is the whole year, every day. I find that a curious weakness in my book.

Now don't get me wrong, I would love to help with her needs!!

The difference is that there doesn't seem to be any concept of male consent in that world. When Amanda wants Howard she doesn't ask him, she asks Julia if she can borrow him. I don't know if the concept of rape even exists there, or if it does it's probably an offense against the man's claimant rather than against the man. I have to wonder if Julia will adopt their customs so much that she starts thinking that way herself.

On the topic of sex and pheromones, I think you guys have pretty much nailed it. For these women, sex is an intense need, but is pleasurable enough that the daily fulfillment of that need becomes an indulgence rather than a chore. The use of pheromones does indeed deprive men of choice in the matter. And for that reason, it is a tool that Julia has resisted using on the man she loves. If these points didn't come across, that's just a weakness in the writing.

Also, Julia is now at the point where she understands that he could not have resisted Amanda's advances in the opening chapters: his physical infidelity was not emotional and was not intentional. I'm glad you just mentioned this plot element, because it is high time for me to incorporate Julia's acknowledgement of what she now understands.

Thanks for the reminder -- and for all the comments!

I mentioned earlier in the thread that perhaps the Nourishment limits the number of females to preserve the amount of fruit for consumption, hence the male to female ratio. Perhaps it also drives them to procreate to maintain a balance? It sure as hell does everything else for them!

ETA updated to mention the Nourishment rather than juice. I've got to give this writing the respect it deserves!

Monty wrote: I mentioned earlier in the thread that perhaps the juice limits the number of females to preserve the amount of fruit for consumption, hence the male to female ratio. Perhaps it also drives them to procreate to maintain a balance? It sure as hell does everything else for them!

Maybe I am just slow, but now I get why the is a 10 to 1 ration of men to women, it's so there are enough men to keep the women satiated. It did not make sense to me, as the women don't get sick, don't age as fast, etc. plus Monty may be correct as the supply of nourishment may not support more women.

On that note about nourishment, there has been multiple instances of fore shadowing that all may not be right with this world. Another example in Chapter 14 is Julia's dark dream. I keep thinking that Howard and Julia are in this world for a reason and that maybe to help save it, as they have a perspective not shared by the others.

One more thing, Cices, you may not know how many people are reading this great story, but you can be sure that those of us who are reading it, are quite invested in the story. All the comments and analysis should be plenty of proof that this story has proved to be very thought provoking.

Thanks again and look forward to more chapters when they are ready.

Best,

twitch

circes_cup wrote: On the topic of sex and pheromones, I think you guys have pretty much nailed it. For these women, sex is an intense need, but is pleasurable enough that the daily fulfillment of that need becomes an indulgence rather than a chore. The use of pheromones does indeed deprive men of choice in the matter. And for that reason, it is a tool that Julia has resisted using on the man she loves. If these points didn't come across, that's just a weakness in the writing.

I think it came across just fine.

Also, Julia is now at the point where she understands that he could not have resisted Amanda's advances in the opening chapters: his physical infidelity was not emotional and was not intentional. I'm glad you just mentioned this plot element, because it is high time for me to incorporate Julia's acknowledgement of what she now understands.

I don't know if they have to rehash that event just for its own sake; a lot has happened since then. But I could see it coming up in a discussion of where they are now and what they owe to each other going forward. To Howard, being borrowed like he was represents a violation more profound than Julia may realize. It's not just that he's not in control of situations any longer, but even his own body and desires can be overridden if a woman so chooses. And not only is he not protected from that, but the culture he's now in encourages and celebrates it. On the other hand, Julia could tell Howard how much she wants to have her way with him, but is holding back out of respect for his feelings. (Which might actually frighten Howard more than reassure him.)

Monty wrote: I mentioned earlier in the thread that perhaps the juice limits the number of females to preserve the amount of fruit for consumption, hence the male to female ratio. Perhaps it also drives them to procreate to maintain a balance? It sure as hell does everything else for them!

Knowing how the Nourishment is produced isn't really necessary to the story. I just figured it was farmed and cultivated somewhere, processed, detoxified, and canned. There's no reason to think that it's in short supply.

But for the world in the story to make any sense, you need an oversupply of men. The women need the men to satisfy their desires, but if there was a 1-to-1 ratio, the women would have to compete for the available men. With 10 men for each woman, it's the men who compete and the women can treat them as a disposal commodity (more or less).

twitch99 wrote: On that note about nourishment, there has been multiple instances of fore shadowing that all may not be right with this world. Another example in Chapter 14 is Julia's dark dream. I keep thinking that Howard and Julia are in this world for a reason and that maybe to help save it, as they have a perspective not shared by the others.

I was thinking that Julia's dreams represent dark times in her relationship with Howard, rather than for that world as a whole. I figured that was just how a nourished woman read the emotional state of her man; a sort of psychic empathy or conscience. Like some of the other things there, it's so endemic that Ruth never even thought to tell Julia she'd be gaining that ability when she became nourished.

twitch99 wrote: I keep thinking that Howard and Julia are in this world for a reason and that maybe to help save it, as they have a perspective not shared by the others.

That's one thing I expect to happen at some point, that Julia would seat and read the entire history of that world in some post sex lazy afternoon. Maybe out of curiosity.

I mean, I think what we have here is this civilization at its most enlightened and advanced stage and still evolving, like where we are now in history.

What about its past? Was it dark?

I don't know if readers or Circes himself want to explore this, to me, it is fascinating

Just food for thought

If the nourished world parallels our history, this nourished world past might be so much bloodier and perverse. How would be like its tribal past? The nutty religions? Did the nourishment happened at some point in history, or it was there ever since? Was this society once male dominant? There was some sort of female revolution?

Imagine how the advent of agriculture in the nourished world would be like. It is even scary to think how would be slavery, feudalism, wars.

Or the nourishment brought Enlightenment and freed the world from all this perversity?

If I could ever find the entrance of this cave (with a girl, preferably), and the route to the nourished world, I'd binge the alternative history channel for weeks. But that's me. I'm a history nerd

Interesting thoughts there lb. Maybe Circes can put some historical background in. I like to think this World has always been that way, but you never know!...

I love speculative erotic scifi.

even if Circes doesn't address these things, it is already great for us readers to think about such possibilities

lowerbase wrote: That's one thing I expect to happen at some point, that Julia would seat and read the entire history of that world in some post sex lazy afternoon. Maybe out of curiosity.

So far, this has this has been pretty much a vacation for Julia, with plenty of time for idle curiosity and reading. I kinda wonder if she'll be expected to contribute at some point, or will Ruth just take care of her the whole time. Being in charge is great when all you're doing is lying on the beach and having sex. I wonder if Julia would like this world quite as much if she had to get a job among the other super-strong, super-smart women.

If the nourished world parallels our history, this nourished world past might be so much bloodier and perverse. How would be like its tribal past? The nutty religions? Did the nourishment happened at some point in history, or it was there ever since? Was this society once male dominant? There was some sort of female revolution?

I think the nourishment had to happen at some point in history, and probably after their industrial revolution. When Julia ate the raw fruit, it made her a little stronger and also quite sick. What they drink from the cans has been processed and detoxified, so the world had to at least get to the point where they learned how to do that.

AuGoose wrote: And the mermaid joke suggested the caves maybe connect different times. Would be hilarious if Ruth lives in Julia's distant (potential) future and Julia basically returns home to plant the first Diana Tree, securing a key turning point in Ruth's distant past, changing possible to likely .

I thought of that, too. To me, it would be an utterly monstrous thing for Julia to do; condemning half the human population to an eternity of servitude.