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LaPorte Caves

16 Feb 2017 00:17 #52565 by Pepper
Replied by Pepper on topic LaPorte Caves
Oh, one critique, if I may, circes. One of the traditional hallmarks of these stories is the protagonist discovering her new abilities. Julia has apparently discovered how to use her pheromones to entice (to put it mildly) men, but you just skipped over that whole event and only have her describing it in passing. After the joy of running, swimming, learning the language, and everything else, it seems odd to leave this out as if it's no big deal. Maybe you think that sort of scene has been done to death already, or you wanted these new chapters to be more about bringing Julia and Howard together, but it would have been interesting to see what you'd done with it.

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16 Feb 2017 07:50 #52573 by circes_cup
Replied by circes_cup on topic LaPorte Caves
Pepper, Twitch, Torque, Monty, Sam+Norton, Dru -- thank you all for your comments! I'm glad to know that you liked the chapters, and even better, just glad to see that people are reading it (there's no other way to really tell!).

As usual with me, this story has grown larger than I originally intended. There were a number of concepts introduced in the first eleven chapters that were overdue some explanation. And at the same time, I wanted to lay the groundwork for the significant amount of plot yet to come. These chapters were intended to do both of those things, and as a result, they were a bit slower and more conversational than my usual fare. I hope to pick up the tempo shortly.

Thanks again, guys.

Pepper wrote: Oh, one critique, if I may, circes. One of the traditional hallmarks of these stories is the protagonist discovering her new abilities. Julia has apparently discovered how to use her pheromones to entice (to put it mildly) men, but you just skipped over that whole event and only have her describing it in passing. After the joy of running, swimming, learning the language, and everything else, it seems odd to leave this out as if it's no big deal. Maybe you think that sort of scene has been done to death already, or you wanted these new chapters to be more about bringing Julia and Howard together, but it would have been interesting to see what you'd done with it.


That's a great point. It would be fun to explore that ability, which Julia has used in the heat of the moment but never deliberately. I may well be able to work that in later in the story.
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16 Feb 2017 14:17 #52580 by AuGoose
Replied by AuGoose on topic LaPorte Caves
Welcome back :),

With the introduction of the pheromones, it seems like there's definitely going to come a moment when Julia realizes Howard didn't have the slightest choice in the matter of his response to being borrowed ;). Kind of hard to hold infidelity against a guy when you and every other woman on the planet can strip him of agency at whim. Somehow I don't think a horny 18 year old raised to think men are little more than pets was showing the restrain Julia's trying to exhibit...
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16 Feb 2017 17:33 #52581 by Pepper
Replied by Pepper on topic LaPorte Caves

AuGoose wrote: With the introduction of the pheromones, it seems like there's definitely going to come a moment when Julia realizes Howard didn't have the slightest choice in the matter of his response to being borrowed ;). Kind of hard to hold infidelity against a guy when you and every other woman on the planet can strip him of agency at whim. Somehow I don't think a horny 18 year old raised to think men are little more than pets was showing the restrain Julia's trying to exhibit...

So much has happened since Howard was borrowed that I don't necessarily get the impression that Julia is still nursing that particular grudge, much less reevaluating Howard's culpability for it. She seems to have shed her old self almost completely, and is more mad that Howard expresses any doubts about the new Julia. Plus, she's made such a point of how he needs to adopt the local customs that it would be unreasonable to get mad at him for having done just that (although emotional hurts don't usually give way to rational analysis.)
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16 Feb 2017 20:56 #52585 by twitch99
Replied by twitch99 on topic LaPorte Caves

Pepper wrote:

AuGoose wrote: With the introduction of the pheromones, it seems like there's definitely going to come a moment when Julia realizes Howard didn't have the slightest choice in the matter of his response to being borrowed ;). Kind of hard to hold infidelity against a guy when you and every other woman on the planet can strip him of agency at whim. Somehow I don't think a horny 18 year old raised to think men are little more than pets was showing the restrain Julia's trying to exhibit...

So much has happened since Howard was borrowed that I don't necessarily get the impression that Julia is still nursing that particular grudge, much less reevaluating Howard's culpability for it. She seems to have shed her old self almost completely, and is more mad that Howard expresses any doubts about the new Julia. Plus, she's made such a point of how he needs to adopt the local customs that it would be unreasonable to get mad at him for having done just that (although emotional hurts don't usually give way to rational analysis.)


I agree that Julia probably has let the Howard infidelity issue go, especially as she has had multiple transgressions with multiple men since. A big issue will be if Howard can deal with Julia's "need" to copulate multiple times a day with multiple partners. I find the whole issue that the women cannot fight this "need" to be rather interesting. They are so smart and strong, etc., but when it comes to sex they are like a moose in rut, but their rutting season is the whole year, every day. I find that a curious weakness in my book.

Now don't get me wrong, I would love to help with her needs!! :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
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17 Feb 2017 13:38 #52597 by grungykitten
Replied by grungykitten on topic LaPorte Caves

AuGoose wrote: Welcome back :),

With the introduction of the pheromones, it seems like there's definitely going to come a moment when Julia realizes Howard didn't have the slightest choice in the matter of his response to being borrowed ;). Kind of hard to hold infidelity against a guy when you and every other woman on the planet can strip him of agency at whim. Somehow I don't think a horny 18 year old raised to think men are little more than pets was showing the restrain Julia's trying to exhibit...

Wasn't this already addressed in like chapter 4 or something? Just before Julia first takes the Nourishment, Mindy explained to her about the pheromones, and that Howard really had no choice in the situation.

“Whenever we’re turned on, we release pheromones that turn the wills of weaker beings to jelly.” Mindy spread her legs slightly, the fabric of her miniskirt stretching to accommodate the expansion. “See?”
The delicate wisps of musk that had reached Julia’s nose earlier were now replaced by a thick cloud. Julia’s heart raced. Her breathing shallowed. And her thoughts scattered like bowling pins tumbling away from a well-aimed ball. I’ve got to have her, Julia’s mind screamed. I’ve GOT to. Her hands flailed about seeking the floor anything that could hold her.
“That’s what happened to Howard in the bath. He tried to resist touching me. I don’t know why, but he really tried. It was so cute. But the more he tried to deny his desire, the more it turned me on, so there was no hope for him. I completely crushed his will. Having that kind of power over men – it’s is my favorite part of being Nourished.”
Julia felt another wave of desire hit her. I can’t let myself do this, Julia objected to herself! Howard did this and I hate him for it. Now, I’m fantasizing about committing the same sort of betrayal myself! But her will felt no sturdier than a drinking straw tasked with propping up a brick.

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17 Feb 2017 14:33 #52599 by Woodclaw
Replied by Woodclaw on topic LaPorte Caves

grungykitten wrote:

AuGoose wrote: Welcome back :),

With the introduction of the pheromones, it seems like there's definitely going to come a moment when Julia realizes Howard didn't have the slightest choice in the matter of his response to being borrowed ;). Kind of hard to hold infidelity against a guy when you and every other woman on the planet can strip him of agency at whim. Somehow I don't think a horny 18 year old raised to think men are little more than pets was showing the restrain Julia's trying to exhibit...

Wasn't this already addressed in like chapter 4 or something? Just before Julia first takes the Nourishment, Mindy explained to her about the pheromones, and that Howard really had no choice in the situation.

“Whenever we’re turned on, we release pheromones that turn the wills of weaker beings to jelly.” Mindy spread her legs slightly, the fabric of her miniskirt stretching to accommodate the expansion. “See?”
The delicate wisps of musk that had reached Julia’s nose earlier were now replaced by a thick cloud. Julia’s heart raced. Her breathing shallowed. And her thoughts scattered like bowling pins tumbling away from a well-aimed ball. I’ve got to have her, Julia’s mind screamed. I’ve GOT to. Her hands flailed about seeking the floor anything that could hold her.
“That’s what happened to Howard in the bath. He tried to resist touching me. I don’t know why, but he really tried. It was so cute. But the more he tried to deny his desire, the more it turned me on, so there was no hope for him. I completely crushed his will. Having that kind of power over men – it’s is my favorite part of being Nourished.”
Julia felt another wave of desire hit her. I can’t let myself do this, Julia objected to herself! Howard did this and I hate him for it. Now, I’m fantasizing about committing the same sort of betrayal myself! But her will felt no sturdier than a drinking straw tasked with propping up a brick.


I believe that there'sa significant difference between having something explained and experimenti it first hand. Julia was already on the receiving end of the pheromones when Ruth's daughter seduced her into tasting the Nourishment, but now she has experienced both sides of the deal and I believe that this put her in rather different perspective than most. The women of this world are used to having such "advantage" and they don't consider it a big deal, at the same time the men are either used or resigned to it, but from Julia's (and Howard's) perspective this power might be considered the equivalent of a rape drug.

(formerly Anon, still Librarian)

"What is the point of having free will if one cannot occasionally spit in the eye of destiny?" ("Gentleman" John Marcone)
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17 Feb 2017 15:50 - 19 Feb 2017 22:21 #52601 by Pepper
Replied by Pepper on topic LaPorte Caves

twitch99 wrote:

Pepper wrote:

AuGoose wrote: With the introduction of the pheromones, it seems like there's definitely going to come a moment when Julia realizes Howard didn't have the slightest choice in the matter of his response to being borrowed ;). Kind of hard to hold infidelity against a guy when you and every other woman on the planet can strip him of agency at whim. Somehow I don't think a horny 18 year old raised to think men are little more than pets was showing the restrain Julia's trying to exhibit...

So much has happened since Howard was borrowed that I don't necessarily get the impression that Julia is still nursing that particular grudge, much less reevaluating Howard's culpability for it. She seems to have shed her old self almost completely, and is more mad that Howard expresses any doubts about the new Julia. Plus, she's made such a point of how he needs to adopt the local customs that it would be unreasonable to get mad at him for having done just that (although emotional hurts don't usually give way to rational analysis.)


I agree that Julia probably has let the Howard infidelity issue go, especially as she has had multiple transgressions with multiple men since. A big issue will be if Howard can deal with Julia's "need" to copulate multiple times a day with multiple partners. I find the whole issue that the women cannot fight this "need" to be rather interesting. They are so smart and strong, etc., but when it comes to sex they are like a moose in rut, but their rutting season is the whole year, every day. I find that a curious weakness in my book.

Now don't get me wrong, I would love to help with her needs!! :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:


The difference is that there doesn't seem to be any concept of male consent in that world. When Amanda wants Howard she doesn't ask him, she asks Julia if she can borrow him. I don't know if the concept of rape even exists there, or if it does it's probably an offense against the man's claimant rather than against the man. I have to wonder if Julia will adopt their customs so much that she starts thinking that way herself.
Last edit: 19 Feb 2017 22:21 by fats.
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17 Feb 2017 17:03 #52602 by circes_cup
Replied by circes_cup on topic LaPorte Caves
On the topic of sex and pheromones, I think you guys have pretty much nailed it. For these women, sex is an intense need, but is pleasurable enough that the daily fulfillment of that need becomes an indulgence rather than a chore. The use of pheromones does indeed deprive men of choice in the matter. And for that reason, it is a tool that Julia has resisted using on the man she loves. If these points didn't come across, that's just a weakness in the writing.

Also, Julia is now at the point where she understands that he could not have resisted Amanda's advances in the opening chapters: his physical infidelity was not emotional and was not intentional. I'm glad you just mentioned this plot element, because it is high time for me to incorporate Julia's acknowledgement of what she now understands.

Thanks for the reminder -- and for all the comments!
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17 Feb 2017 18:25 - 18 Feb 2017 16:27 #52606 by Monty
Replied by Monty on topic LaPorte Caves
I mentioned earlier in the thread that perhaps the Nourishment limits the number of females to preserve the amount of fruit for consumption, hence the male to female ratio. Perhaps it also drives them to procreate to maintain a balance? It sure as hell does everything else for them!

ETA updated to mention the Nourishment rather than juice. I've got to give this writing the respect it deserves!
Last edit: 18 Feb 2017 16:27 by Monty.
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17 Feb 2017 19:12 #52609 by twitch99
Replied by twitch99 on topic LaPorte Caves

Monty wrote: I mentioned earlier in the thread that perhaps the juice limits the number of females to preserve the amount of fruit for consumption, hence the male to female ratio. Perhaps it also drives them to procreate to maintain a balance? It sure as hell does everything else for them!


Maybe I am just slow, but now I get why the is a 10 to 1 ration of men to women, it's so there are enough men to keep the women satiated. It did not make sense to me, as the women don't get sick, don't age as fast, etc. plus Monty may be correct as the supply of nourishment may not support more women.

On that note about nourishment, there has been multiple instances of fore shadowing that all may not be right with this world. Another example in Chapter 14 is Julia's dark dream. I keep thinking that Howard and Julia are in this world for a reason and that maybe to help save it, as they have a perspective not shared by the others.

One more thing, Cices, you may not know how many people are reading this great story, but you can be sure that those of us who are reading it, are quite invested in the story. All the comments and analysis should be plenty of proof that this story has proved to be very thought provoking.

Thanks again and look forward to more chapters when they are ready.

Best,

twitch
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18 Feb 2017 00:34 #52621 by Pepper
Replied by Pepper on topic LaPorte Caves

circes_cup wrote: On the topic of sex and pheromones, I think you guys have pretty much nailed it. For these women, sex is an intense need, but is pleasurable enough that the daily fulfillment of that need becomes an indulgence rather than a chore. The use of pheromones does indeed deprive men of choice in the matter. And for that reason, it is a tool that Julia has resisted using on the man she loves. If these points didn't come across, that's just a weakness in the writing.

I think it came across just fine.

Also, Julia is now at the point where she understands that he could not have resisted Amanda's advances in the opening chapters: his physical infidelity was not emotional and was not intentional. I'm glad you just mentioned this plot element, because it is high time for me to incorporate Julia's acknowledgement of what she now understands.

I don't know if they have to rehash that event just for its own sake; a lot has happened since then. But I could see it coming up in a discussion of where they are now and what they owe to each other going forward. To Howard, being borrowed like he was represents a violation more profound than Julia may realize. It's not just that he's not in control of situations any longer, but even his own body and desires can be overridden if a woman so chooses. And not only is he not protected from that, but the culture he's now in encourages and celebrates it. On the other hand, Julia could tell Howard how much she wants to have her way with him, but is holding back out of respect for his feelings. (Which might actually frighten Howard more than reassure him.)

Monty wrote: I mentioned earlier in the thread that perhaps the juice limits the number of females to preserve the amount of fruit for consumption, hence the male to female ratio. Perhaps it also drives them to procreate to maintain a balance? It sure as hell does everything else for them!

Knowing how the Nourishment is produced isn't really necessary to the story. I just figured it was farmed and cultivated somewhere, processed, detoxified, and canned. There's no reason to think that it's in short supply.

But for the world in the story to make any sense, you need an oversupply of men. The women need the men to satisfy their desires, but if there was a 1-to-1 ratio, the women would have to compete for the available men. With 10 men for each woman, it's the men who compete and the women can treat them as a disposal commodity (more or less).

twitch99 wrote: On that note about nourishment, there has been multiple instances of fore shadowing that all may not be right with this world. Another example in Chapter 14 is Julia's dark dream. I keep thinking that Howard and Julia are in this world for a reason and that maybe to help save it, as they have a perspective not shared by the others.

I was thinking that Julia's dreams represent dark times in her relationship with Howard, rather than for that world as a whole. I figured that was just how a nourished woman read the emotional state of her man; a sort of psychic empathy or conscience. Like some of the other things there, it's so endemic that Ruth never even thought to tell Julia she'd be gaining that ability when she became nourished.
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19 Feb 2017 13:01 #52641 by lowerbase
Replied by lowerbase on topic LaPorte Caves

twitch99 wrote: I keep thinking that Howard and Julia are in this world for a reason and that maybe to help save it, as they have a perspective not shared by the others.


That's one thing I expect to happen at some point, that Julia would seat and read the entire history of that world in some post sex lazy afternoon. Maybe out of curiosity.

I mean, I think what we have here is this civilization at its most enlightened and advanced stage and still evolving, like where we are now in history.

What about its past? Was it dark?

I don't know if readers or Circes himself want to explore this, to me, it is fascinating

Just food for thought

If the nourished world parallels our history, this nourished world past might be so much bloodier and perverse. How would be like its tribal past? The nutty religions? Did the nourishment happened at some point in history, or it was there ever since? Was this society once male dominant? There was some sort of female revolution?

Imagine how the advent of agriculture in the nourished world would be like. It is even scary to think how would be slavery, feudalism, wars.

Or the nourishment brought Enlightenment and freed the world from all this perversity?

If I could ever find the entrance of this cave (with a girl, preferably), and the route to the nourished world, I'd binge the alternative history channel for weeks. But that's me. I'm a history nerd
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19 Feb 2017 14:08 #52644 by Monty
Replied by Monty on topic LaPorte Caves
Interesting thoughts there lb. Maybe Circes can put some historical background in. I like to think this World has always been that way, but you never know!...
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19 Feb 2017 14:09 - 19 Feb 2017 14:09 #52645 by AuGoose
Replied by AuGoose on topic LaPorte Caves
I thinking just finding a world map could tell you a lot about whether the caves are connecting different planets or maybe just alternate versions of Earth... The biological compatibility and shared language makes me think the later, but it could play out in many ways.

And the mermaid joke suggested the caves maybe connect different times. Would be hilarious if Ruth lives in Julia's distant (potential) future and Julia basically returns home to plant the first Diana Tree, securing a key turning point in Ruth's distant past, changing possible to likely ;).
Last edit: 19 Feb 2017 14:09 by AuGoose.
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19 Feb 2017 16:09 #52647 by Woodclaw
Replied by Woodclaw on topic LaPorte Caves

lowerbase wrote:

twitch99 wrote: I keep thinking that Howard and Julia are in this world for a reason and that maybe to help save it, as they have a perspective not shared by the others.


That's one thing I expect to happen at some point, that Julia would seat and read the entire history of that world in some post sex lazy afternoon. Maybe out of curiosity.

I mean, I think what we have here is this civilization at its most enlightened and advanced stage and still evolving, like where we are now in history.

What about its past? Was it dark?

I don't know if readers or Circes himself want to explore this, to me, it is fascinating

Just food for thought

If the nourished world parallels our history, this nourished world past might be so much bloodier and perverse. How would be like its tribal past? The nutty religions? Did the nourishment happened at some point in history, or it was there ever since? Was this society once male dominant? There was some sort of female revolution?

Imagine how the advent of agriculture in the nourished world would be like. It is even scary to think how would be slavery, feudalism, wars.

Or the nourishment brought Enlightenment and freed the world from all this perversity?

If I could ever find the entrance of this cave (with a girl, preferably), and the route to the nourished world, I'd binge the alternative history channel for weeks. But that's me. I'm a history nerd


I remember a chat last year about the history of this world and I put forward the hypothesis that Noursihment (at least in the current superconcentrated form) had to be a rather recent development. My base logic is that many of the technological achievements we see around (from cars to computers) are the tools of a society not unlike our own, which means that the people of this world had to face challenges similar to our and came up with similar solutions. For example, from a Nourished perspective any form of transportation, save perhaps an airplane is more or less useless, which implies that cars and other similar tools were either created before the nourished came around or were built by the men first and later redesigned or improved by the nourished to fit their unique needs.

(formerly Anon, still Librarian)

"What is the point of having free will if one cannot occasionally spit in the eye of destiny?" ("Gentleman" John Marcone)
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19 Feb 2017 17:16 #52648 by lowerbase
Replied by lowerbase on topic LaPorte Caves
I love speculative erotic scifi.

even if Circes doesn't address these things, it is already great for us readers to think about such possibilities
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19 Feb 2017 17:31 #52649 by Pepper
Replied by Pepper on topic LaPorte Caves

lowerbase wrote: That's one thing I expect to happen at some point, that Julia would seat and read the entire history of that world in some post sex lazy afternoon. Maybe out of curiosity.

So far, this has this has been pretty much a vacation for Julia, with plenty of time for idle curiosity and reading. I kinda wonder if she'll be expected to contribute at some point, or will Ruth just take care of her the whole time. Being in charge is great when all you're doing is lying on the beach and having sex. I wonder if Julia would like this world quite as much if she had to get a job among the other super-strong, super-smart women.

If the nourished world parallels our history, this nourished world past might be so much bloodier and perverse. How would be like its tribal past? The nutty religions? Did the nourishment happened at some point in history, or it was there ever since? Was this society once male dominant? There was some sort of female revolution?

I think the nourishment had to happen at some point in history, and probably after their industrial revolution. When Julia ate the raw fruit, it made her a little stronger and also quite sick. What they drink from the cans has been processed and detoxified, so the world had to at least get to the point where they learned how to do that.

AuGoose wrote: And the mermaid joke suggested the caves maybe connect different times. Would be hilarious if Ruth lives in Julia's distant (potential) future and Julia basically returns home to plant the first Diana Tree, securing a key turning point in Ruth's distant past, changing possible to likely ;).

I thought of that, too. To me, it would be an utterly monstrous thing for Julia to do; condemning half the human population to an eternity of servitude.
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19 Feb 2017 17:52 #52650 by AuGoose
Replied by AuGoose on topic LaPorte Caves

lowerbase wrote: I love speculative erotic scifi.


I certainly enjoyed your T-Rex gene story. Always hoped you'd get back to it :).

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19 Feb 2017 18:03 #52651 by Woodclaw
Replied by Woodclaw on topic LaPorte Caves

AuGoose wrote:

lowerbase wrote: I love speculative erotic scifi.


I certainly enjoyed your T-Rex gene story. Always hoped you'd get back to it :).


That's sound like a very weird, but interesting set-up.

(formerly Anon, still Librarian)

"What is the point of having free will if one cannot occasionally spit in the eye of destiny?" ("Gentleman" John Marcone)
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