LaPorte Caves

twitch99 wrote: Howard on the other hand has lost nearly everything. Sure he is trapped in a world where all the women are goddesses, with strength, beauty and sexuality that are totally compelling. What man could resist them? But his value is nearly zero, let’s face it, men in this world are kept around because they are needed for procreation and to be used as fuck toys for the women who cannot control their sexual needs and like to have multiple partners at a time or in the course of a day. They are basically servants, valued at a level barely above the family pet and considered totally inferior. We don’t even know Ruth’s husbands name, he is so insignificant. Men know their place in the world because they are raised (brainwashed) to be happy only by serving women. Men accomplish nothing on their own and even if they did, it would be considered far inferior to what a woman could do. No wonder Howard just wants to go home.

I'm trying to decide if it might be even a little darker than that. Do the women just leave the menial jobs to the men, or do they go out of their way to make the men's lives more difficult that they have to be? Who does the menial but dangerous jobs; stuff that would present a risk to a man's life, but wouldn't even break a woman's nail? The fruit can't be consumed in its raw form, so the genders must have been roughly equal until they reached a level of development that wold allow for processing it on a large scale. Did the men happily accept their fate after that, or are there hints of intimidation, brainwashing, or even eugenics since then?

For that matter, I'm a little curious about the birth rates in this world. If you've got a million women who need four sexual partners a day, that's 4 million men. The nourishment seems to prolong a woman's active years, but I think it would also wear the men out pretty quickly. Add in the references to all the men who aren't lucky enough to find a woman and the men must vastly outnumber the women.

pansardum wrote: But I also really like all the discussions, especially around the crowbar scene. I really didn't like it the first time I read it, not my cup of tea. But the more I see the discussions I think I want to see that aspect explored more. Maybe how these new powers go a bit to Julia's head. I think it would be really cool if Ruth (for example) reacted negatively to how Julia treated a man, preferably Howard which then set Julia to a better path.

I think you have to include the whole evening leading up to the crowbar scene. Howard scrounged extra clothes for Julia, got their gear packed and ready, and waited for her for hours, all while Julia was at a party and a feast. Did Ruth, or anyone else, notice he was missing? Did Howard even have any dinner at all? Julia may say that she wants Howard to recognize her as the more capable one in the relationship, but he did everything she told him and still got utterly screwed over. If I was Howard right now I'd be livid. The way things have been escalating between them it's hard to imagine the tension ratcheting back down (assuming that this story is about Julia finding some responsibility and redemption) without reaching some sort of crisis moment. That could happen a bunch of different ways, though.

And I still haven't made up my mind about Ruth. Is she the concerned, gentle matriarch, or has she been pulling Julia's strings since chapter 2 to get things exactly where they are now?

Sorry I have not figured out how to do a selective quote.

Pepper wrote:
For that matter, I'm a little curious about the birth rates in this world. If you've got a million women who need four sexual partners a day, that's 4 million men. The nourishment seems to prolong a woman's active years, but I think it would also wear the men out pretty quickly. Add in the references to all the men who aren't lucky enough to find a woman and the men must vastly outnumber the women.

I remembered somewhere that the ratio was 20 men to 1 women, but found the place in the story and its actually 10 to 1. So a man has a 1 in 10 chance of being Claimed, the rest can only hope they become a regular sex toy for someone, otherwise they can go months or years with no sex. No wonder men will do anything a woman asks, not only does she have infinite power over him, their only chance for sex is to somehow stand out above the rest of the unclaimed men to gain the attention of a woman so she can use him and then toss him aside when she tires of him. I do wonder why to ratio of men to women is so high.

twitch99 wrote: Sorry I have not figured out how to do a selective quote.

Pepper wrote:
For that matter, I'm a little curious about the birth rates in this world. If you've got a million women who need four sexual partners a day, that's 4 million men. The nourishment seems to prolong a woman's active years, but I think it would also wear the men out pretty quickly. Add in the references to all the men who aren't lucky enough to find a woman and the men must vastly outnumber the women.

I remembered somewhere that the ratio was 20 men to 1 women, but found the place in the story and its actually 10 to 1. So a man has a 1 in 10 chance of being Claimed, the rest can only hope they become a regular sex toy for someone, otherwise they can go months or years with no sex. No wonder men will do anything a woman asks, not only does she have infinite power over him, their only chance for sex is to somehow stand out above the rest of the unclaimed men to gain the attention of a woman so she can use him and then toss him aside when she tires of him. I do wonder why to ratio of men to women is so high.

Perhaps the Nourishment acts as some sort of controlling medicine to pregnant woman acting to keep the number of female births low to protect the amount of Nourishing fruit in existence or I may have just wandered off on a tangerine ... errr tangent! It really is a brilliantly constructed story that is very thought-provoking! Can't wait for more Circes!

I'm really gratified to see such a vigorous discussion on SWM, and all the more gratified that one of my stories was the trigger. This level of engagement really helps me, and perhaps other writers, stay excited about what we are doing.

Regarding many of the points that have been made so far, it's not for me to say whether Julia is more right or more wrong than Howard. I had intended to establish them both as imperfect people under trying circumstances, neither one a saint, neither one a villain. The fact that we're debating which member of this couple is more right than the other might be a sign that this aspect of the story is on track!

For the last two weeks, I've suffered a pretty bad case of writer's block, which is strangely similar to having a cold, except that it's behind the sinuses rather than in them. Thankfully, my case is now cleared up and that I will soon be writing again.

In my experience, these chapters are best written in clumps of 3-4 rather than one at a time. Therefore, it will be some time yet before I am able to produce Ch 12. But when I do, the next 2-3 chapters should be follow pretty quickly. Stay tuned!

Hey circes, how's chapter 12 coming? Will we get to see Howard's perspective again? Can't wait to read more!

Torque wrote: Hey circes, how's chapter 12 coming? Will we get to see Howard's perspective again? Can't wait to read more!

Plus 1 from me!!

Can't wait for more of this story

+2! Chomping at the bit a little here.

Working hard on 12, as much as real life will allow. I write chapters in "clumps". So, there will be nothing-nothing-nothing for a while, and then 12-13-14 will arrive back-to-back. Will let you know a timeframe when I have it.

I'm looking forward to the next installment as well, but with a bit of trepidation. The story could still go in a dozen different directions. I just see a lot of contradictions in it; I feel like I'm waiting for them to be resolved, or for someone to at least notice them. How that plays out will probably make a big difference for me.

circes_cup wrote: Regarding many of the points that have been made so far, it's not for me to say whether Julia is more right or more wrong than Howard.

With all due respect, if it's not your place to say, whose is it? I suppose I've already made my views on the subject known. And I'm not saying that Julia is not a believable character, but at this point in the story I don't like her very much.

Woodclaw wrote: One of the things that makes writing different from other medium is that the reader isn't a passive part of the story creation, but rather an active and participating element of it. The way a person imagine the look, the voice, the landscapes are all elements that contribute to the development of his own personal story. Often an author may deliberately avoid to express a judgement on his own characters because, being all figments of his mind, he's not in the best place to judge their actions, hence he put forth a situation he imagined and ask the reader "what do you make of it?"
As readers we might all decide what to make of a character's decisions, motivations and interest. We might like or hate them, find them childish or too mature and so on. Our opinion as readers tell to the author something about the quality and effect of his narrative.

Good point, and very well said. But writers create villains all the time. The good ones have understandable motives, and their actions are consistent with who they are. Some may be amoral, some may think their actions are justified by some greater good. And yet they are still villains, and can be seen as such by their creators.

For those of you that are following this story, I wanted to let you know that I'm still working hard on the next chapters, as much as the rest of my life will allow. I wrote a draft of 12, scrapped it, wrote another completely different draft of 12, scrapped that one too, and am now on my third version. The good news is that the scapped material is not wasted effort: they were the right chapters, just sitting in the wrong part of the story, meaning that I should be able to use them later on. I have a very clear idea where I want to take everything, so it's not a case of needing plot ideas. But knowing the destination is not the same as knowing every step of the route. When I have a clear sense of the posting dates for the next chapters, I'll announce it here. Thanks to all of you who have prodded/urged/asked about the next chapters!

the scapped material is not wasted effort: they were the right chapters, just sitting in the wrong part of the story, meaning that I should be able to use them later on

I know how that goes -- I probably have enough scrapped-and-saved scenes of my own to comprise several (very disjointed) stories now.

It's nice to have a pantry of written material you can reach into when you need a ready-made scene.

Looking forward to your next chapter!

circes_cup wrote: For those of you that are following this story, I wanted to let you know that I'm still working hard on the next chapters, as much as the rest of my life will allow. I wrote a draft of 12, scrapped it, wrote another completely different draft of 12, scrapped that one too, and am now on my third version. The good news is that the scapped material is not wasted effort: they were the right chapters, just sitting in the wrong part of the story, meaning that I should be able to use them later on. I have a very clear idea where I want to take everything, so it's not a case of needing plot ideas. But knowing the destination is not the same as knowing every step of the route. When I have a clear sense of the posting dates for the next chapters, I'll announce it here. Thanks to all of you who have prodded/urged/asked about the next chapters!

When the story is finished it would be interesting to come back and revisit this post; what you wrote, where it eventually wound up, and why you felt it wasn't right for this point in the story.

How are the rewrites coming? Very excited to see what you've come up with!!

Once or twice I've seen authors post that they have a new story (or a chapter in a continuing story) ready, but are holding off submitting it to the library while a workshop is going on. I think it's a courtesy to the workshop authors that they have the audience to themselves for a while.

Don't know if that's what circes_cup is doing, but I hope he'll have the next chapters for us soon.

Torque wrote: How are the rewrites coming? Very excited to see what you've come up with!!

It's still coming. Ch 12 has been through re-write after re-write as I've experimented with different possibilities. It's a good deal of brain damage, but I made a promise to myself that I would be putting out the best story I know how to write, not just volume of the sake of volume. So, hang tight. It'll happen.

To Pepper's point, yes, if the story were ready at this moment, it would be on hold for a bit due to the workshop. That's a voluntary choice but I think it's appropriate given the amount of effort workshop authors put into their own stories.

I'll let you know when I'm getting close. Thanks for checking in, guys.

Woodclaw wrote: ...and I'm wondering if this missing bits are what seem to have wrote Circes in a corner.

That's not necessarily the impression I got from Circes's posts. Seems like the story could go in a dozen different directions from where it left off.

Of course, I don't know where it's supposed to end, so maybe it is a matter of getting the plot from here to there.

So it's time for our monthly check in on this great story. I was so exited when I got the email on comments. Hoping a new chapter had been posted, but alas that was not the case.

I'm not surprised that Circes is having a hard time writing this next chapter. The story is at such a pivotal point, as Pepper noted, it can go in many directions.

I trust Circes will continue to take us on a wonderful ride. Take your time, we will try to be patient.

twitch99 wrote: So it's time for our monthly check in on this great story. I was so exited when I got the email on comments. Hoping a new chapter had been posted, but alas that was not the case.

I'm not surprised that Circes is having a hard time writing this next chapter. The story is at such a pivotal point, as Pepper noted, it can go in many directions.

I trust Circes will continue to take us on a wonderful ride. Take your time, we will try to be patient.

Still working on getting to a completion point with 12. I'm not there yet, but I'll get there in time. All I can say is, hang tight!

ballen wrote: As I read the comments that suggest Julia has somehow become corrupted by power and is treating Howard as a slave, I cannot help but think there is short / selective memory being displayed here. Howard absolutely defines his relationship with Julia by both is perceived greater deductive abilities and physical abilities. And now that Julia is the more able person in this world he is having severe problems coping.

Let's go back to Chapter 8 when Julia was quickly able to decipher the written language of this new world - something Howard was unable to do. What was his reaction? There was no, "that's great Julia. that will be helpful for us to navigate this stange world until we are able to leave ..." He stormed out of the room like a child.

Immediately after, she tried to extend an olive branch by engaging in something that could bring them together; swimming. The passage reads that she looked for a way to bring his confidence back up. Unfortunately the gesture failed. Why? Because of his pride. There was no, "You performed amazingly honey - phenomenal". In fact he understated her performance by saying, "Your pace was good." A reader commented that Howard was trying to build her into a better person. If there was a sincere effort on his part to do that, there would be no need to restrain compliments to his girlfriend. Why hold back? Tell her she is amazing. A confident man would do that. Further, how did he react when she continued to improve her already incredible performance? He struck her! He resorted to physical abuse. There was no taunting, no bating or any provocation on her part except for once in their relationship, she was more able than he, and that he could not tolerate. Thank goodness she was invulnerable.

Howard's reactions clearly demonstrate that this relationship only works for him when he is more able, both mentally and physically. Sure he encouraged her in their former world, but is behavior in this world suggests his encouragement was more likely patronizing and probably would be absent should she "ascend" to his level.

I could go on by discussing their interaction at the rock, but I want to turn to the latest chapter. Where Julia comes into her own and starts behaving like the superior being Ruth is encouraging her to embrace. I will say here, Julia did not exercise any tact or diplomacy when it came to her sexual behavior. She didn't have to tack in that direction but she did so in order to get Howard to hit her with the crowbar. In the end however it was a miscalculation because instead of her getting Howard to recognize she didn't need his protection, she instead only got him to see rage. The metaphor was lost if you will. I would make this point however. Howard was the first to transgress in his act with Amanda. Julia made him promise not to do anything with her, yet he succumbed. And not only that, but he admitted to her how wonderful the experience was. Frankly, neither one of them could have helped themselves. Women in this world are as unable to resist their sexual needs as the men are to resist women's pheromones.

One last quick point on tying Howard to a tree. Again could have been handled better, but definitely for his own good. It's like telling your 10 year old daughter not to go out at night for her own safety, except the 10 year old daughter would know better. Howard would roll out refusing to admit he is less able to defend himself in this world, than a 10 year old girl would be in his old world.

I want Julia to experience being independent and confident and let's see if Howard really can love Julia if he is not able one in the relationship. If so, then I think their relationship will become a deeper one.

And by the way, I thought this was superwomenmania.com? Why would we ever want the nourishment to wear off or the women to LOSE their powers?

Just reading back through La Porte Caves, and I really like this post about how Howard is annoyed and immature about the predicament HE finds himself in, whilst his true love Julia has the power to do as she pleases. I also spotted something in an earlier chapter when Julia tells Howard 'to keep his zip up away from these women or I will make you regret it for the rest of your life' Something he didn't do. Pay-back time with the tied-up steel bar? Great work Circes Cup!

To be fair, it isn't as if Howard had a choice in the matter, which Julia must surely realize.

I hope Circes Cup doesn't mind!

How I would envisage a Fully Nourished 19 year old Mindy...