The LaPorte Caves - Revised

Can't help myself to weigh in again.  Circes, you've got us stirred up, good job.  Guess there's several of us passionate about your story.

First off, I have to admit I haven't figured out Howard's initial love for Julia.  She really does seem out of place for him.  I understand he enjoys, maybe even needs, to take care of her.  But still seems out of place.  Julia is definitely misguided. First she misunderstood Hawk's repentance as change.  So therefore she extrapolated that to mean Howard could change as well.  But changing another person is a mistake in many relationships that lead to disaster.  A person cannot change unless want to and even then with a lot of difficulty.  Julia wants to change Howard into something completely opposite to what he is.  She'll have no chance of that.  And that is her tragedy.  Unfortunately, the tragedy will be on Howard not on Julia, as he will suffer, she'll blame him, then she'll move on to join the rest of the Weald woman and lose memory of Howard.  She's finally learning what it takes to be the lead in a relationship, but has no idea how to do it.  She mistakes dominating Howard as leading.  Due to inability to empathize she cannot see the effect, or worse sees him cowering as adorable.  Now lets look at Howard.  He's being a whiny teenager.  Man up realize you loss the basis of your relationship and figure out how to manage in this world.  He's doing everything he can to lose.  Albeit, he's not given any opportunity to win.  But still, to make snide comments in public more than once and know that they can be heard is irresponsible.  He's still in denial what her capabilities are.  Get over it, realize she's super human and assume you're in for the run of your life.  If he doesn't start taking responsibility for his own protection and wise up, he will not have any protection at all.  I still think their relationship is non-recoverable.  I think it become non-recoverable back when Julia took the swim with Ruth.  Of course, nourishing was the real point, but it would have been recoverable if initial steps were taken immediately.  What I'm a little uncertain on is the foundation of the relationship in Earth.  Woodclaw describes both as narcissistic.  I think the debate in my mind is Howard.  Did he need for Julia to admire him to try to improve her, or was his need more altruistic in that he saw her as someone that could be improved and felt that he could help her do it and enjoy watching her blossom.  The relationship is a rapid moving train wreck which the three forces, Howard, Julia, and Mindy, cannot stop.  I think the only person to mitigate the wreck is Ruth.  But for her to do that will require losing the inherent bias against men and realize Howard is not a Weald male, but more.  So I'll throw this out there.  Maybe the pill is a setup from Ruth.  Can't quite see how as she was not directly mentioned to be in the house during the argument prior to the rehearsal, but since everyone was getting ready, one can assume she was.

The following could have been from Captain Obvious:
From where Circes has started this story Julia has, for good or ill, evolved past their original relationship. For any hope of happiness Julia would need to devolve, or Howard needs embrace, without reservation, Julia's evolution and a new role in their relationship. IF he doesn’t adapt, he’ll either be miserable or dead.

Lead on Circes, lead on.

mpac00 wrote: Can't help myself to weigh in again.  Circes, you've got us stirred up, good job.  Guess there's several of us passionate about your story.

First off, I have to admit I haven't figured out Howard's initial love for Julia.  She really does seem out of place for him.  I understand he enjoys, maybe even needs, to take care of her.  But still seems out of place.  Julia is definitely misguided. First she misunderstood Hawk's repentance as change.  So therefore she extrapolated that to mean Howard could change as well.  But changing another person is a mistake in many relationships that lead to disaster.  A person cannot change unless want to and even then with a lot of difficulty.  Julia wants to change Howard into something completely opposite to what he is.  She'll have no chance of that.  And that is her tragedy.  Unfortunately, the tragedy will be on Howard not on Julia, as he will suffer, she'll blame him, then she'll move on to join the rest of the Weald woman and lose memory of Howard.  She's finally learning what it takes to be the lead in a relationship, but has no idea how to do it.  She mistakes dominating Howard as leading.  Due to inability to empathize she cannot see the effect, or worse sees him cowering as adorable.  Now lets look at Howard.  He's being a whiny teenager.  Man up realize you loss the basis of your relationship and figure out how to manage in this world.  He's doing everything he can to lose.  Albeit, he's not given any opportunity to win.  But still, to make snide comments in public more than once and know that they can be heard is irresponsible.  He's still in denial what her capabilities are.  Get over it, realize she's super human and assume you're in for the run of your life.  If he doesn't start taking responsibility for his own protection and wise up, he will not have any protection at all.  I still think their relationship is non-recoverable.  I think it become non-recoverable back when Julia took the swim with Ruth.  Of course, nourishing was the real point, but it would have been recoverable if initial steps were taken immediately.  What I'm a little uncertain on is the foundation of the relationship in Earth.  Woodclaw describes both as narcissistic.  I think the debate in my mind is Howard.  Did he need for Julia to admire him to try to improve her, or was his need more altruistic in that he saw her as someone that could be improved and felt that he could help her do it and enjoy watching her blossom.  The relationship is a rapid moving train wreck which the three forces, Howard, Julia, and Mindy, cannot stop.  I think the only person to mitigate the wreck is Ruth.  But for her to do that will require losing the inherent bias against men and realize Howard is not a Weald male, but more.  So I'll throw this out there.  Maybe the pill is a setup from Ruth.  Can't quite see how as she was not directly mentioned to be in the house during the argument prior to the rehearsal, but since everyone was getting ready, one can assume she was.

It's not necessarily wrong to try to help someone change. Julia wasn't happy with her body back on Earth. Suppose Howard had cooked healthy meals for the two of them (or chosen healthy options when eating out). He could have helped her give up smoking. It can be a loving and generous act to help someone make positive change in their life.

That's not what Julia is doing. First off, Howard doesn't want to change. Julia is trying to change Howard, not for his benefit, but for her own; to make her life better and to get what she wants. And the change she's trying to get him to make is to accept a life of subservience and abuse. If you want to know how evil Julia is being, imagine Howard, back in Kentucky, saying she "needs to be put in her place."

I think the next chapter or two is going to be very illuminating to where circes wants to take the story. If it's just a straight up super woman fetish, then Howard will be beaten or coerced into submission. This will be evident in how Julia reacts if he tries this magic mind control pill that seems way too convenient, and if Julia doesn't see how desperate he must be to try it. She will either accept that he's serious and does not want to be there, and returns him to Earth, or she will try to "break" him.

If it's more than a male domination fantasy story, then Julia will SOMEHOW realize that she has completely lost sight of what was attractive in their relationship, and that it is not right for her to "put him in his place." He hasn't done anything wrong, even if he tries this pill. He has no way out of the situation, and it's tough to swallow that he is ever going to just accept that she's superior.

I love a strong independent woman, but going that route would not be reflective of how real relationships actually work. Julia and Howard are supposed to be similar to real people, so IMO I have certain expectations of how they would react, especially given the context of their history already.

Looking forward to seeing the next chapter so most of the debate can be put to rest.

Torque wrote: I think the next chapter or two is going to be very illuminating to where circes wants to take the story. If it's just a straight up super woman fetish, then Howard will be beaten or coerced into submission. This will be evident in how Julia reacts if he tries this magic mind control pill that seems way too convenient, and if Julia doesn't see how desperate he must be to try it. She will either accept that he's serious and does not want to be there, and returns him to Earth, or she will try to "break" him.

If it's more than a male domination fantasy story, then Julia will SOMEHOW realize that she has completely lost sight of what was attractive in their relationship, and that it is not right for her to "put him in his place." He hasn't done anything wrong, even if he tries this pill. He has no way out of the situation, and it's tough to swallow that he is ever going to just accept that she's superior.

I love a strong independent woman, but going that route would not be reflective of how real relationships actually work. Julia and Howard are supposed to be similar to real people, so IMO I have certain expectations of how they would react, especially given the context of their history already.

Looking forward to seeing the next chapter so most of the debate can be put to rest.

circes_cup said that it'll take the best part of a year to post all the chapters, so there's still quite a lot of the story left. Because of that, I suspect that things will get worse for Howard before (and if) they get better.

Narcissism is one of the most common personality traits. Everyone has it in lower and higher degrees, I recommend this youtube channel about it www.youtube.com/user/RioGrande51

The real question is when or how Narcissism becomes a disorder and leads to abuse or self-harm, and as far as I can tell, Julia and Howard are a pretty normal couple. It is the situation they find themselves that is nothing normal, and there is no psychological study that could clarify what would really happen.

Besides, without Drama there is no story. If Howard and Julia came to terms with her immense superiority as the perfect couple would do, the story would be over in a few chapters with a forgetful happy ending

So, I hope Howard doesn't 'come to terms' for at least 10 or 20 chapters  

lowerbase wrote: Narcissism is one of the most common personality traits. Everyone has it in lower and higher degrees, I recommend this youtube channel about it www.youtube.com/user/RioGrande51

The real question is when or how Narcissism becomes a disorder and leads to abuse or self-harm, and as far as I can tell, Julia and Howard are a pretty normal couple. It is the situation they find themselves that is nothing normal, and there is no psychological study that could clarify what would really happen.

Besides, without Drama there is no story. If Howard and Julia came to terms with her immense superiority as the perfect couple would do, the story would be over in a few chapters with a forgetful happy ending

So, I hope Howard doesn't 'come to terms' for at least 10 or 20 chapters  

Correct, there is a difference between selfishness and narcissism. We all have selfish tendencies, and I would even say that most of our physical limitations are the biggest negating factors to becoming raging narcissists. Julia hasn't quite hit full on narcissist because she hasn't completely abandoned Howard, but she's right on the cusp. If she wants to enjoy the super powers she's been given, that's entirely her choice, but when she starts imposing her choices onto Howard is when it's no longer ok.

Of course she's going to want to enjoy her new powers, who wouldn't? But she is clearly losing sight of what made their relationship special. It's not about one person being the "alpha" and the other the "beta." 

I'll reiterate again, because it's what I think (hope) that circles is aiming for, that I think Julia just completely lacks the maturity to understand the implications of what her powers mean for their relationship. For her, it's been all fun and games, literally. Circes hinted that the men went snorkeling in chapter 9d, but we don't know how that went. In fact, my biggest criticism so far is the lack of perspective from Howard's side. Did he enjoy it? Is there hope for him to treat this like a vacation like Julia wants? If there is supposed to be more nuance around him becoming more desperate, we haven't seen much. Instead, we just see Julia's descent into Mindy's and Ruth's manipulations, while not actually caring what Howard wants.

I'm like the drama, and you're right, it's how a story stays interesting. But what I can't abide is a story with an unsatisfying conclusion. If Julia gets her way, that they stay for years in the Weald, that Howard just accepts her will, then any drama that builds to that point is meaningless. Both parties need to lose AND win for the most satisfying ending. I know we're a long way off from that, so maybe it's just the format of a chapter at a time that is giving me the narrative blue balls.

Speaking of....Hope to see the next chapter soon!

I'm fascinated.  Because the more I read, the better it gets.  And the angrier I become.  

It's well written, of course.  Circe is a genre writer with a strong command of language.  Skillful scene-setting.  A laudable effort to make the Weald into a fleshed-out, 3D world.  Even if it's a place that's looking less appealing to a male reader with every chapter, regardless of the glories of the Nourished themselves.

Why do I get so irritated?

Is it because Howard is initially so over the top in his insecurity?  So cartoonishly intolerant of the steel Amazon into which his girlfriend has been transformed?  His hapless flailing ego refusing to permit thoughtful engagement with his newly-goddessed girlfriend?  With each thing Julia does....each comic-book feat of strength or speed or mental prowess, he seems to just repeatedly butt his head against it, though Mindy's appalling bullying and threats seem to've made some sort of impression.

Is it because Mindy is so entirely awful, with so few redeeming qualities as to make Julia's interest in her seem egregiously shallow?  Her vanity, petulance, ego, and sadism are appalling, and feel somehow off, given her age.  They seem more fitted for an 11 year old.  Certainly they feel wrong given that Ruth herself is vastly more mature and circumspect.  She seems to have imparted almost nothing in her daughter.

Is it because Julia herself is flirting with asshole-dom as her powers rumble through her, her mind expands, and her ego grows with it, leading her to keep Howard essentially a prisoner in a place so completely, profoundly uncongenial not only to his soul, but also his physical health?

The problem is that you can't get inside a story like this because none of the protagonists feels worth cheering for.  Howard wasn't perfect, but he loved Julia and encouraged her.  The shoe's on the other foot but he apparently possesses absolutely nothing in the coping mechanism department, and his rebuffs of Julia seem both one-note and increasingly strident.

Julia was a doughy plain-Jane who became a goddess.  Yet the wonder of what she can do is often perfunctory and she too-soon shifts to patronizing, condescending, and unsympathetic.  I can run 200 miles per hour!  I'm benching 60 tons!  My mind makes Deep Blue seem like a Casio calculator!  Awww....look at Howard trying to better himself.  Hee hee!  Lookit Widdle Howie pretending he's capable and stuff like on Earth!  It's teeth-grinding.

And you know what?  I wouldn't give half a shit if it wasn't So. Well. Written.  So perhaps that's Circe's great gift.  Creating something so interesting and so compelling that I want to read every bit of it.  It's a world that's fascinating and repellent.  Maybe that makes it hard to look away.  Maybe having no one to really root for is deliberate.  A way to disorient a reader and perhaps help empathize with Howard.  I don't really know for sure.  But the quality is too high for me to stop, even as I sometimes shake my head as I read.

Julia's and Howard's relationship is doomed but let's take a hard look at why.

Let's look at Julia from Howard's point of view.  She used to be smaller than him, less capable.  He viewed her with potential but needed help.  She was his lost puppy to be loved.  She was smart, but did not conform to the job she chose.  She was sweet.  Now she's huge, and significantly more capable than him.  She's far more intelligent and can do any intellectual pursuit she wants.  She's now domineering.  She also is very threatening, she hurt and possibly killed some of the 50 men without remorse.  She also has realized her body is fantastic and loves it.  I think she's completely opposite in every way from her Earth self.  She has some slight resemblance to the old Julia, but even that is slight.

Let's look at Howard from Julia's point of view.  He now is no longer the leader, he cannot keep up in any physical endeavor.  He no longer can provide financially for her.  He is easily intimidated by her, and totally insecure due to fears of his environment.  So from Julia's perspective Howard also is the complete opposite to the Earth Howard.  In this case he looks the same.

So the only thing they share are common memories.  Their relationship will be fundamentally different going forward so those common memories will be confusing and at conflict.  I also propose that Howard does not love Julia since she is now totally different than she was.  Julia loves Howard since she's still retaining those old memories and now feels like she can control the relationship, kind of like vindicated in her feelings.

eromacque wrote: I'm fascinated.  Because the more I read, the better it gets.  And the angrier I become.  

It's well written, of course.  Circe is a genre writer with a strong command of language.  Skillful scene-setting.  A laudable effort to make the Weald into a fleshed-out, 3D world.  Even if it's a place that's looking less appealing to a male reader with every chapter, regardless of the glories of the Nourished themselves.

Why do I get so irritated?

Is it because Howard is initially so over the top in his insecurity?  So cartoonishly intolerant of the steel Amazon into which his girlfriend has been transformed?  His hapless flailing ego refusing to permit thoughtful engagement with his newly-goddessed girlfriend?  With each thing Julia does....each comic-book feat of strength or speed or mental prowess, he seems to just repeatedly butt his head against it, though Mindy's appalling bullying and threats seem to've made some sort of impression.

Is it because Mindy is so entirely awful, with so few redeeming qualities as to make Julia's interest in her seem egregiously shallow?  Her vanity, petulance, ego, and sadism are appalling, and feel somehow off, given her age.  They seem more fitted for an 11 year old.  Certainly they feel wrong given that Ruth herself is vastly more mature and circumspect.  She seems to have imparted almost nothing in her daughter.

Is it because Julia herself is flirting with asshole-dom as her powers rumble through her, her mind expands, and her ego grows with it, leading her to keep Howard essentially a prisoner in a place so completely, profoundly uncongenial not only to his soul, but also his physical health?

The problem is that you can't get inside a story like this because none of the protagonists feels worth cheering for.  Howard wasn't perfect, but he loved Julia and encouraged her.  The shoe's on the other foot but he apparently possesses absolutely nothing in the coping mechanism department, and his rebuffs of Julia seem both one-note and increasingly strident.

Julia was a doughy plain-Jane who became a goddess.  Yet the wonder of what she can do is often perfunctory and she too-soon shifts to patronizing, condescending, and unsympathetic.  I can run 200 miles per hour!  I'm benching 60 tons!  My mind makes Deep Blue seem like a Casio calculator!  Awww....look at Howard trying to better himself.  Hee hee!  Lookit Widdle Howie pretending he's capable and stuff like on Earth!  It's teeth-grinding.

And you know what?  I wouldn't give half a shit if it wasn't So. Well. Written.  So perhaps that's Circe's great gift.  Creating something so interesting and so compelling that I want to read every bit of it.  It's a world that's fascinating and repellent.  Maybe that makes it hard to look away.  Maybe having no one to really root for is deliberate.  A way to disorient a reader and perhaps help empathize with Howard.  I don't really know for sure.  But the quality is too high for me to stop, even as I sometimes shake my head as I read.

I feel the same way when reading this story,  it's so well written and I am compelled to see where it goes, but at the same time I'm pissed off that the Weald women, while they are so physically attractive, they are so cold and uncaring as people.  The world they have built is so selfish and self centered.

I anxiously await the next episode in the train wreck of Julia and Howard's relationship.

Circes, thanks for taking on this rewrite and for sharing it with us.

twitch

Thanks everybody.  

Nothing new this week.  Hope I can have the next chapter out soon.  Everyone have a good weekend.

I believe Julia's behavior towards Howard is a manifestation of her deep-seated self-esteem issues. The very first scene of the story is Julia lamenting about how she couldn't measure up to the rock-climbing girl. From the moment she woke up in the hospital, she feared that Howard would leave her for one of the towering, curvy amazons they were surrounded with. She admitted to Howard that she Nourished in order to better compete for his affection.

Nearly everything Julia has done in this story has been tinged with a sense of her own inferiority, even post-Nourishment. She allows everyone to make decisions for her, even men. I think for her, Howard is her only release valve; the only person she feels she can impose her will on. But it's as if she can't accept that she's even worthy of that privilege; she has to keep bossing him around in order to convince herself that she can.

The problem is, it isn't working. She isn't winning his affection; she's just losing his trust. And his affection was the thing she used to bolster her self-esteem. I have to wonder how she will cope if Howard does decide to move forward with Amanda, especially after vocally spurning Julia specifically for her new body.

I am really enjoying this revision of LPC. The character development and world-building are even better than the classic revision, and the plot is tighter and more focused. Really great stuff.

Nothing new this week either.  Trying to get a few upcoming chapters to align with each other and it is taking some time.  Expect I can have the next chapter our by next weekend.

Thank you all for following the story!

circes_cup wrote: Nothing new this week either.  Trying to get a few upcoming chapters to align with each other and it is taking some time.  Expect I can have the next chapter our by next weekend.

Thank you all for following the story!

Thank you for keeping us informed about the progress.

I haven't read Ch.11 yet (I'm just about to), but thank you for posting. (and thank you Woodclaw for pushing the chapter through.)

Yes, thank you Woodclaw for squeezing it in!

Brilliant. I've read up to the point, so far, where Julia says "and Howard wants me to give it all up" This is astonishingly good writing.

Woodclaw wrote:

circes_cup wrote: Yes, thank you Woodclaw for squeezing it in!

No problem, but for the foreseeable future (and this is something for all the writers), please don't drop your story at the last possible minute. For real, Crices uploaded it at 00.59 AM my time, usually I schedule the stories to go online ar 1.00 AM my time

If you don’t want to publish it this week, then don’t.  I submit my stories when they are done and am not going to apologize for the timing of the submittal.  Publish it in 2021 for all I care.

The conflict between Julia and Howard has been made public. Howard will be indifferent to Julia to express his dissatisfaction. Julia may be trying to change Howard's attitude, including the use of power, but at best she can only make Howard appear submissive.  I like this novel very much

Monty wrote: Brilliant. I've read up to the point, so far, where Julia says "and Howard wants me to give it all up" This is astonishingly good writing.

Does he want her to give it up, though? Maybe the thing that finally gets Julia to open her eyes is for Howard to point out that of all the times he begged Julia to take him back to Kentucky, he never asked her to stay there.

Pepper wrote: Does he want her to give it up, though? Maybe the thing that finally gets Julia to open her eyes is for Howard to point out that of all the times he begged Julia to take him back to Kentucky, he never asked her to stay there.

The biggest secret Howard is holding back on is not Mindy's threats; he's not in love with Julia.  The loss of being in love is beyond the loss of physical appeal.

If Julia still shows off her strength and intelligence in front of Howard, it is hard for her to win back his love. She can force Howard to stay, but he has no advantage over the other men here. Why should Julia like him for so long? If Julia liked to show off her power, she could return to earth and use it. Hopefully Julia will understand that in future chapters. In addition, could we add some scenes in the following chapters in which Julia used her power to attack other men who had no master in front of Howard, so as to warn Howard at the same time?
So many people here to leave a message, everyone very recognized your work. This is a very wonderful novel, no matter how the novel develops, I will pay attention to him. Thank you for your creation!

mpac00 wrote: The biggest secret Howard is holding back on is not Mindy's threats; he's not in love with Julia.  The loss of being in love is beyond the loss of physical appeal.

I think Howard's biggest secret is that he never really loved Julia; he always just saw her as a damsel in distress that he could feel good about rescuing, and now that he can't rescue her anymore, he wants out.