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Where is everyone????
Seems like we took a U-turn somewhere.
I truly miss the free and wondrous internet thinking of the 90's. Sites run for the love of it, and funded from donations.
SWM is a lovely vestige of 90's internet culture. I'd sure love to see it stay that way.
Shadar
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- shadar
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Let me get the site sorted and then we can look at the options, but remember that once to go down the subscription or purchase options there is no going back, we need to get people to interact more on the site that should be our priority rather than the financial side of things.
Fats
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- fats
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fats wrote: Let me get the site sorted and then we can look at the options, but remember that once to go down the subscription or purchase options there is no going back, we need to get people to interact more on the site that should be our priority rather than the financial side of things.
Fats
Amen to that.
IMHO, the last thing this genre needs is another pay-to-view site behind a paywall.
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- shadar
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I do have some concerns about our feedback mechanisms here on the site. For the most part, they're confined to comments hooked to the library entry itself (down at the bottom) and the comments thread in the stories tracker. However, both of them require the highest level of effort for readers to use: they have to write something and they have to do it while they have the story open in front of them - if they even see the reply panel at all. The authors among us here shouldn't underestimate how daunting that is for a lot of our audience. Both technically and because doing so strips away a layer on anonymity many of the site's readers prefer/enjoy. Most stories end up getting almost no comments in either venue beyond the regular efforts of our librarian, who's required to read every piece as part of the submission and publishing process. I've seen a case just recently where a story went up, several people commented on it at the bottom of the library entry, and the author only discovered they'd gotten responses only by chance. Hearing the applause for your stories should never be left to chance!
At the other end of the spectrum of effort, I've experimented with keeping a notebook thread here on the boards. It gets less exposure than full library entries, but presents readers with a one-click way of acknowledging a piece. Believe me: I pour over those 'thank yous' very closely. In my experience if a piece is really clicking for people, it'll get about 6 thank yous. Interestingly the list of people who do click thank you often rotates and shifts, and I'm very aware of when a new name appears for the first time. I always enjoy getting more elaborate feedback in thread, but those easy-peasy thank yous do a LOT to keep my enthusiasm up . They also give me some interesting data when comparing the in-notebook responses to feedback once I've moved finished tales to the library. I've often wondered if most site-users even know the notebook is there. My sense is most of the ones who write out responses do know - because once something goes to the library, there's virtually no further response or commentary at all. I try not to take the sound of crickets personally .
I feel like there's some space between full text responses and single click responses that could be explored. Some sort of one-to-five-stars rating of your enjoyment of a story, or even several rating for various aspects of a story you've just read? It would give readers a way of interacting a little more while still not having to de-lurk and attach their name to a response. However, since we do need and want authors of all skill levels stepping forward, I think any sort of "please grade my creation" functionality should be something you have to opt into when you submit a tale. Some folks are at a stage where they want there stuff picked apart, and some would prefer mostly positive responses that build the confidence to keep generating stories. There's some very successful creative-hosting sites out there that make "Artist desires critique." a very clear switch you can throw as a contributing creator.
I guess my focus would be less on 'where is everyone?' and more on 'how can we make people feel like this is a place to be?' Both as writers and as readers who want to encourage authors they enjoy.
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- AuGoose
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Sometimes you see a story, but there's no feedback from the author and it can read like a blank page sometimes. That sounds harsh, as I know the writer's put alot of time into their work. An example being Circes Cup's excellent La Porte Caves before it was picked up in La Porte's own thread. Now I wouldn't miss the next chapter for the world.
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- Monty
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But some stories are hard to praise, and its often clear that some diplomatically voiced critique could help the author on their next effort.
But given the concerns about negativity and so forth, the unwritten rule on story comments seems to be: "if you can't say something mostly nice, say nothing at all."
That doesn't bother me given we're a genre enthusiast site, and not a writing development site, but it risks authors getting no feedback on some stories, and that doesn't help them develop.
I know in my past, back in AU days when comments were very frequent and detailed (as per the culture of the 90's through about 2005), I frequently had stories where most of the feedback was critical. I found that by welcoming and rewarding uncomfortable criticism, I became a much better author. Without it, I would likely have remained a poor writer, which I certainly was when I started.
Shadar
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- shadar
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shadar wrote: As long as we are putting everything on the table, the SWM culture is tilted more to providing affirmation to authors as opposed to critical feedback.
I agree, but I think a large part of that is because as readers we simply don't know what an author wants in the way of feedback. So we try really hard not to scare them off . They're kind of a limited resource.
But given the concerns about negativity and so forth, the unwritten rule on story comments seems to be: "if you can't say something mostly nice, say nothing at all."
Which is a good policy in the absence of knowledge, honestly. That's is why I wonder if there's some way we can formalize the understanding of an author's goals instead of relying on a body of hidden lore about the habits of these rare birds. To flag which authors are looking for affirmation that their piece has reached a friendly audience and the ones that want some scars in the service of their craft.
The downside of the current 'walking on eggshells until proven otherwise' is its impossible for the writer to distinguish between in the silence of "oh my God, my stuff sucks" and "hey, a couple of our most chatty folks happen to have gone out of town for the weekend". We can't make silence less deadly, but we might be able to make it less the norm. From both sides of the bridge - making readers more confident they're giving feedback that'll get them more of what they want and giving writers any feedback at all .
That doesn't bother me given we're a genre enthusiast site, and not a writing development site, but it risks authors getting no feedback on some stories, and that doesn't help them develop.
That's a good distinction to make. The question is can we restructure or reformat SWM just a little and serve both kinds of audiences?
I know in my past, back in AU days when comments were very frequent and detailed (as per the culture of the 90's through about 2005), I frequently had stories where most of the feedback was critical. I found that by welcoming and rewarding uncomfortable criticism, I became a much better author. Without it, I would likely have remained a poor writer, which I certainly was when I started.
Indeed. That's a great kind of interaction to have... Once a writer's got that "my ego's the size of a small moon and can absorb some meteorite impacts". Meteors are rather more devastating when you've just built your first little house . Moreover, having those kinds of intense discussion out in SWM's commons gives newer writers something to read that may help inspire them to take on another story.
"Only some of us can learn from other people's mistakes. The rest of us have to be the other people."
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- AuGoose
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......
Another area we could consider a change would be a clearer separation between the NSFW/erotic content and the non-erotic stuff. I for one clearly reside in the erotic category (a preference I developed, ironically, by reading Shadar's early stuff, even though he is now in the other category). But whatever the content of my own material, I can completely respect the fact that some people don't want erotic content on their screen or part of their life. I imagine some people have left the site quitely when they concluded perioidically stumbling across erotic content was not for them. Perhaps the erotic stuff should be separated by more than a story tag. We may wish to consider a toggle switch that allows participants to screen that stuff out of their browsing experience (like DA's Mature Content Filter), or perhaps we begin to sequester erotic content in its own section of the site.
......
On the topic of feedback, I can certainly see how having the right culture of discussion could make existing authors want to write more, and also could inspire new authors. For my part, I have to say that the sort of conversation / discussion / debate that emerged on the LaPorte Caves thread was perhaps the best experience I've had in five years of writing. With a few exceptions, that thread was a great example of how a discussion can be motivational to an author without becoming fake and syrupy.
In my view, the "right culture" is one where
- praise is genuine, never fake
- simple praise ("good story!") is accompanied by something thoughtful ("I like the way that you...")
- readers discuss and debate not just with the author, but also with each other
- criticism is delivered privately, on a PM or an email
That last point may seem strange -- to deliver one thing publicly and another privately -- but writing is always an emotional risk and requires some vulerability on the part of the author. Delivering criticism privately acknolwedges that vulnerability. And it's intersting to note that most larger and more anonymous sites, such as DA, feature very little public criticism.
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- circes_cup
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For the present I'm more concerned with the feedback system. I agree that at the present we have two very distinct, but also intertwined problems: the system and the culture.
On the system side I believe that the most sensible thing to do would be to find a way to merge the comments at the bottom of each story and the threads ina single entity, but this isn't that simple. While this probably doable with single installment stories, any kinf of multi-chapter story will present a host of possible complications.
As far as culture goes, I belive that AuGoose, Circes Cup and Shadar already said most of what I think. The biggest difficulty is that often author and readers think in slightly different ways and the "positive only" feedback system can create many problems (as Au highlighted).
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- Woodclaw
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I still think this could attract people to know that they could have their fantasies put into a well written story but yet, I understand that regular writter are more unspired with their own ideas. I know that writing a story is time something (don't have the word).
That could be just an portal where regular writters signal when they are interested to be given some inspiration..
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- luchodemeyer
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SWM has always been somewhat tolerant of soft erotica for text (not so much images), and I'm incorporating more of that than in my new story. As long as the story is strong enough for erotica to be 'spice' and not the main course, then it works for me. Who doesn't like a spicy story.
It depends on where we want to draw new readers. If the target is people who enjoyed Wonder Woman or Jessica Jones or Luke Cage or Supergirl, etc and want to go deeper into the ubergirl genre, including but not exclusive of adult themes, then that could work.
Personally, I think that's where we want to draw new readers, not just zero sum swap them with DA.
How many people saw WW and fantasized about other themes that a bunch of Amazons could present? Or Supergirl TV? Think of all the fetishes and sub-fetishes we share, whether its strength or invulnerability or sexuality, etc. The stories behind the story that can't be told with a PG13 rating or are too specific to our genre for a general audience.
We could have specialized fan-fiction or alternate history story tracks that are inspired by current movies or TV shows. Historically, that has proven successful, and now with so much general audience superhuman material out there, and vast new audiences, this should be a prime time for alternate stories based on those popular characters or universes.
In any case, to draw new readers we have to do something well that others aren't. Whatever that is. And we have to market that once we have some content.
Shadar
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- shadar
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luchodemeyer wrote: To be honest, my main concern was not the compensation nor the payment but the possibility to commission stories for those who don't feel able to write ones (for various reasons).
I still think this could attract people to know that they could have their fantasies put into a well written story but yet, I understand that regular writter are more unspired with their own ideas. I know that writing a story is time something (don't have the word).
That could be just an portal where regular writters signal when they are interested to be given some inspiration..
That's something entirely different. Personally I'd line such a portal to not be limited to commissioning writing but it could be an interesting addition.
And looking at shadars post it sounds like a good idea to split fanfiction from original fiction.
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- njae
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shadar wrote: As long as we are putting everything on the table, the SWM culture is tilted more to providing affirmation to authors as opposed to critical feedback....
I know in my past, back in AU days when comments were very frequent and detailed (as per the culture of the 90's through about 2005), I frequently had stories where most of the feedback was critical. I found that by welcoming and rewarding uncomfortable criticism, I became a much better author. Without it, I would likely have remained a poor writer, which I certainly was when I started.
Shadar
You couldn't put it better, I miss that kind of feedback.
--Brantley
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- brantley
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There has been a funk on this site with lower numbers which is why Fats was concerned. I would like to thank everyone for their input.
I think that we do have some feedback issues as several people have suggested.
I also think that we should try to encourage folks to write, draw and post news.
Illustrations really help stories imo. TSOS was a good example of that. I have a
TGK commission for TSOS that was done 10 years ago. Only Argo and Random have ever seen it. I am dying to post it, but I still hold out hope that Argo and I can get back on that story so that we can post it. I think we were two chapters away when we stopped writing.
This is my favorite place on the net and I sure hope that it outlives me!
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- ace191
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- ace191
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ace191 wrote: I am retired so I have plenty of time to work on it, but Argo who does the majority of the writing and editing still works. I am hoping after he finishes up Baker's Dozen that maybe we could get back to it. We had a good time doing the story for the last workshop. I am half way done with a story that I started a year ago. I need to get up off the couch and get her done.
Sound like a plan
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- Woodclaw
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Instead of bringing money into it (which I don't think will solve the problem), how about a system where we reward people who leave reasonable feedback? We already have an incrementer that tracks a user's number of posts, for example.
I'm not saying this is definitely the way to go, but just bringing to the table the idea of rewarding users who critique library entries.
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- SHTL
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Remember that one option in any decision making process is to not change anything. I like things as is other than more people having more input and discussion or sharing of things they have found.
Maybe an easier way to remain more anonymous for those who are increasingly worried about work or Gov monitoring activity. Never use my work PC for anything too much sexier than the DailyMail trollops and skanks that are seen as clickbait. One of the Linda stories has a short scene where x ray vision is used to see that a teacher at school is a follower of basically the SWM site and has a bottle of booze in his desk. That could almost be me. hah.
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- Sarge395
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And yeah, the feedback I was thinking of had to do with grammar, formatting, pacing, unclear wording, stuff like that. Nothing to do with the creative process. Everyone has their own little twist on the kink; it would be very annoying for all users to want the story to go their way (I think that's what writing.com is for.) Don't know how you could encourage the writing feedback and not the storyline.
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- oldHarmonyMotion
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- Sarge395
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oogber wrote: Aw thanks Sarge. I will say, I got quite a bit of support but still can't find the discipline to finish the story. Don't know why.
And yeah, the feedback I was thinking of had to do with grammar, formatting, pacing, unclear wording, stuff like that. Nothing to do with the creative process. Everyone has their own little twist on the kink; it would be very annoying for all users to want the story to go their way (I think that's what writing.com is for.) Don't know how you could encourage the writing feedback and not the storyline.
The Grammarly software is very helpful for both grammar and spelling. You can get add-ons to your web browser or standalone versions for your PC or Mac that you can run text through even if Grammarly doesn't interface directly with your editing software. Highly recommended.
But it won't help with pacing or plot or character construction and so forth.
Storytelling hasn't changed all that much since the ancient Greeks dissected the art and turned it into science (the Hero's Quest). Today, the people who analyze writing see fiction more as Problem Solving that follows the way our minds work instead of force-fitting it to the Hero paradigm.
While most articles on this subject get dense and complicated very quickly, here's a short and fairly readable discussion that uses modern fictional characters (Luke Skywalker, Spock, etc) as examples.
narrativefirst.com/articles/not-everything-is-a-heros-journey
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- shadar
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Peace.
/K
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- kikass2014
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Some stuff people posted on forums called my attention on my own story that I hadn't noticed. What people liked, what they got out of it, how they connected the dots. If they reply as I expected, it improves my confidence in the story, if not, it makes me to think.
This kind of conversation is a must.
Most people give feedback because they want more of it, which is always nice for the muse to hear, but very few start this conversation. It doesn't need to be a critique. Actually, critiques are usually useless for the writer. The writer has a narrow window to change his style and literary talents, or to 'fix' things, and this is not a job. Critiques at best might help for the writer to improve on the next project, avoiding to step on the same pitfalls.
The best way to give feedback, imo, is not 'this is the greatest story ever', but talking about its characters, what to expect of them, to where the story is going, what they liked the most, what confuses them, and of course, plot holes. And maybe even saying that they are 'disappointed', or not 'convinced' or 'turned off' by a story turn or a character choice/behavior. It is not the end of the world to know that the story sucks at some point. But is essential for the writer to have clues of why it sucks.
Anyway, any feedback is better than none at all.
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- lowerbase
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