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Wonder Woman in Batman v Superman
Thought about it for a bit.
And I am going to call the shot with "the editing in this movie was probably the problem." That said, I'm not really a movie/film geek, so take that with a "he doesn't know boo". Still, feel sorta right.
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- TwiceOnThursdays
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However, I will disagree with you on Luthor. I thought he was very well played. I didn't need to be told he was a megalomaniac to know he was a megalomaniac and couldn't stand someone having more power than him. The Senate hearing scene and the rooftop scene brought his evilness home for me.
I definitely have to see it again to catch some of the things I might have missed. This time I'm taking the wife and kids although I'm a bit concerned if the kids (ages 7 and 10) will be able to sit through it...
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- jdrock24
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But its a movie with good qualities-it does have thoughts about responsiblty what you can and can't do, living as an outsider. It has a lot of good suporting performances Faora is well done, the special effects are great, and at times it is quite a buietifl lyrical movie that feels like the world is at stake by showing it. Some of its suposed flaws i think are strengths-i do think the Zod fight made sence and i like how they made a momment out of his death something a lot of superhero movies(including a lot of marvel movies) really gloss over. So as i have gone..i have kinda softened on it. I think i do kinda like it now.
However one big problem remains storywise. Krypton. The movies opening act on Krypton is bueatiful, dynamic and some of the best special effects in movies. It tells it story well and creates compelling factions and ideas... and is superflucious to plot. For the story the rest of the movie tells, it goes agianst it. The movies stakes are dependent on Superman at least for a minute consider Zod as someone he can work with to join as he is so alienated from it...and without that momment the movie fails.
Cut to B vs S...which is in a lot of ways a better movie. Synder or his writers did listen to the complaints and made them part of the story. You get a compelling movie that never for a second bored me. and after watching the trailers, still suprised me. The action was always followable, the htird act made sence as did every thing else, and while i do hear complaints of some of the relationships where a little hard to follow(We got a good sence of why Batman hated superman-not a perfect sence of why Superman hated batman) i think it generally flowed well. i think i would have liked a momment early on where Superman was an unambious hero, but i can live with it.
The performances where good. Cavil had grown into the role abit, Laurence Fishbourne had more to do, and Amy Adams if at times she was lit a little unflatering(one thing the movie does not improve on is overall cinemtography which was at times hit) did seem very human in a way that you can see the rommance. Ben Affleck was a good a batman as we have seen, and i liked how kinda of played Bruce Wayne as more or less the same guy just a little less focus. Jermey irons was a great Alfred and liked his areobic with at all points that didn't just seem batting of Affleck,. Holly Hunter had a good performance in a small part that went places that well you wouldn't expect and i thought Jesse Eisenberg was a great Lex luthor, maybe the best in the movies so far, a perfect blend of Smarm Millenial millionare, and Evil Genuis. .
And there are ideas in ths movie. at the risk of making a political comment a facebook friend pointed out "This is a movie about a Billionare getting really mad at an illegal immagrant"....and while he thought it was a joke, i do think that thought is intentional, though after spending 2 years talking about this on the forrum, the specifics not so much. And that is something. This more then the last is about facing the consiquences of actions and dealing with ones moral compass..and it does think about it..and that if nothing else gives the movie a good pass for me.
But well to the title of the thread-remember how i mentioned Krpyton.
Gal Gadot i think was great as Wonder Woman- a perfect blend of mystery and humanity, a godess who you could feel sympathy for., and liked how she played of wayne-i like the subtle hint of playful of it . her battle at the end was well done and well acted. And yeah you know what after probabbly a hundred posts here about how skinny she looked or any of that..i thought she looked great. it did work. She was maybe the best part of the movie.
...that probabbly shouldn't have been in it
. Yeah all the justice leauge stuff, especially towards the endless ends kinda took a couple of points of the movie for me. Like the scene in the desert, and the intro of the flash.. but Aquaman was in it for like 10 seconds which was 5 seconds to long. Darksied at the end felt a cameo for something, becuse it wasn't * this* story. This was the story of Batman and superman. And everything beyond felt sequal bait or wonder woman bait..and while i am curious to see those movies...but cluttered it. Like TTOT said it did aid an extra beat that kinda hurt it as it went forward.
But overall i do like it, and i am curious. Honestly for the first time ever i watched the trailer for Civil war before this movie-and that odesn't look nearly a good as movie as this one. i liked it. as mentioned in the spoiler some of it takes it away from Great to Very good..but thats where i am on this.
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- castor
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castor wrote: When i first saw Man of Steel i didn't really like it. Its to long by probabbly a half, Henry Cavil is a good actor(i do recomend Man from UNCLE where hes great) but he seems lost at times,the third act battle feels a bit like an incoherent mess at times...
But its a movie with good qualities-it does have thoughts about responsiblty what you can and can't do, living as an outsider. It has a lot of good suporting performances Faora is well done, the special effects are great, and at times it is quite a buietifl lyrical movie that feels like the world is at stake by showing it. Some of its suposed flaws i think are strengths-i do think the Zod fight made sence and i like how they made a momment out of his death something a lot of superhero movies(including a lot of marvel movies) really gloss over. So as i have gone..i have kinda softened on it. I think i do kinda like it now.
However one big problem remains storywise. Krypton. The movies opening act on Krypton is bueatiful, dynamic and some of the best special effects in movies. It tells it story well and creates compelling factions and ideas... and is superflucious to plot. For the story the rest of the movie tells, it goes agianst it. The movies stakes are dependent on Superman at least for a minute consider Zod as someone he can work with to join as he is so alienated from it...and without that momment the movie fails.
Cut to B vs S...which is in a lot of ways a better movie. Synder or his writers did listen to the complaints and made them part of the story. You get a compelling movie that never for a second bored me. and after watching the trailers, still suprised me. The action was always followable, the htird act made sence as did every thing else, and while i do hear complaints of some of the relationships where a little hard to follow(We got a good sence of why Batman hated superman-not a perfect sence of why Superman hated batman) i think it generally flowed well. i think i would have liked a momment early on where Superman was an unambious hero, but i can live with it.
The performances where good. Cavil had grown into the role abit, Laurence Fishbourne had more to do, and Amy Adams if at times she was lit a little unflatering(one thing the movie does not improve on is overall cinemtography which was at times hit) did seem very human in a way that you can see the rommance. Ben Affleck was a good a batman as we have seen, and i liked how kinda of played Bruce Wayne as more or less the same guy just a little less focus. Jermey irons was a great Alfred and liked his areobic with at all points that didn't just seem batting of Affleck,. Holly Hunter had a good performance in a small part that went places that well you wouldn't expect and i thought Jesse Eisenberg was a great Lex luthor, maybe the best in the movies so far, a perfect blend of Smarm Millenial millionare, and Evil Genuis. .
And there are ideas in ths movie. at the risk of making a political comment a facebook friend pointed out "This is a movie about a Billionare getting really mad at an illegal immagrant"....and while he thought it was a joke, i do think that thought is intentional, though after spending 2 years talking about this on the forrum, the specifics not so much. And that is something. This more then the last is about facing the consiquences of actions and dealing with ones moral compass..and it does think about it..and that if nothing else gives the movie a good pass for me.
But well to the title of the thread-remember how i mentioned Krpyton.
Warning: Spoiler!
Gal Gadot i think was great as Wonder Woman- a perfect blend of mystery and humanity, a godess who you could feel sympathy for., and liked how she played of wayne-i like the subtle hint of playful of it . her battle at the end was well done and well acted. And yeah you know what after probabbly a hundred posts here about how skinny she looked or any of that..i thought she looked great. it did work. She was maybe the best part of the movie.
...that probabbly shouldn't have been in it
. Yeah all the justice leauge stuff, especially towards the endless ends kinda took a couple of points of the movie for me. Like the scene in the desert, and the intro of the flash.. but Aquaman was in it for like 10 seconds which was 5 seconds to long. Darksied at the end felt a cameo for something, becuse it wasn't * this* story. This was the story of Batman and superman. And everything beyond felt sequal bait or wonder woman bait..and while i am curious to see those movies...but cluttered it. Like TTOT said it did aid an extra beat that kinda hurt it as it went forward.
But overall i do like it, and i am curious. Honestly for the first time ever i watched the trailer for Civil war before this movie-and that odesn't look nearly a good as movie as this one. i liked it. as mentioned in the spoiler some of it takes it away from Great to Very good..but thats where i am on this.
Thanks for the well thought out review. I haven't seen B vs S yet, but based on your comments on Man of Steel (which resonate with me) and using that as a basis for judging your comments on B vs S, I'm looking forward to see it.
I also try to avoid getting hung up on little things and look at the meaning and larger message of a movie. Some movies don't have one (or its superficial), but it sounds like B vs S following MOS in having some substance to the message.
Interesting that the end of the movie seemed tacked on -- basically a prologue for WW and Justice League stories to come? Something a lot meatier than a trailer, but not an integral part of the narrative arc of the rest of the movie.
I suppose I'm going to have to take the hour or so trek in toward Seattle area to see it in a decent theater. The crappy theater in my rural area is vastly inferior to my own home theater.
I know this is a lot of personal preference, but is the 3D version worth the distractions? In a rare few movies, the 3D puts me in it, but in other movies it seems superfluous and just makes me dizzy. How well was B vs S done re: 3D?
Shadar
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- shadar
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They *Kinda* integrate it into the story. Wonder Woman appears fairly early on in the movie, but for about 45-minutes to an hour shes disapears. Problem isn't the word but one of the movies issues is that we never know what she is actually up to in the movie. Such that when she appears again towards the end of the second act...the movie never establishes like where in the world she actually is.
. We do see bits of other characters...that to a certain extent feel like things from trailers for other movies(including a fairly long bit of cyborg), and there is one fairly long sequence that i don't want to spoil that refrences them..
.but these kinda feel extranious to the plot, which as mentioned about Batman and Superman. After the movies climax you get a fairly long time about talking about finding the others and forming some kind of organization to fight the devil who is coming to earth and...
(yeah i know Thanos was made to be a copy of Darksied so he is orginally DC...but that doesn't mean both modern superhero movies should go to the same well)
As for 3D....you know honestly i went to the theater thats a little further away for me(granted i live in LA where there is a lot of theaters) to see it in 2D. Didn't want to bother with that. The movie has a lot of Backlighting and lightbloom which is kinda distracting i think in 3D.
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- castor
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I guess I'm gonna be the first, probably not the last, and perhaps not surprisingly, the one who say that I found Batman V Superman to be exactly what I thought it would be, but perhaps secretly wished it wouldn't be.
Simply put, the film is bad. Is it the worst film ever? No. Is it the worst comic book film ever? No. But it is bad.
1) Zack Snyder as the director.
I’ve said before and I’ll say it again, Snyder is a GREAT visual director. He does come up with some great compositions. Problem with this here is that it does not work for comic book movies, in general, and specifically when portraying Superman and Wonder Woman. Desaturating the image so much that Superman (and the rest of the cast) look like corpses, and the settings look like they are in perpetual rain, looks miserable and feels boring.
Super hero comics are an explosion of colour. They are bright, clean, sharp. Not drab and dreary.
2) Ben Affleck as Batman.
To be fair, Affleck was actually a bit better than I thought he would be as Batman. The problem is his characterization is wrong on a fundamental level – Batman does NOT kill. In any of the other interpretations, even in the “dark, gritty, realistic Nolan version” I cannot think of time when Batman, knowingly and willingly, killed anyone. In fact, he expressly states at one point to Catwoman “no guns”, much to her chagrin. Here, he is mowing people down with his car and machine guns.
But hey, Superman killed Zod, fuck it.
3) Gal Gadot as Wonder Woman.
Gal Gadot is a pretty woman. She is not however Wonder Woman. Now, admittedly she is not in the film much, having maybe 20 or so lines to say. The problem is she is not really a great actress, or even a good one. Her delivery sounds stilted and monotone.
I DID like her function in the narrative, but her part of it is the LEAST of the problems with the plot.
I didn’t hate her as Wonder Woman, but I genuinely fail to see how everyone says she “steals the show”. What does she do that’s so amazing? Did I blink and miss it?
4) The rest of the characters.
There are none. They are just exposition-machines. Seriously, I did not care one bit about ANY of them. And seeing as the principles (including Lois and even Martha Kent) are so far removed from what the general consensus knows of them, this is hardly surprising.
5) The music.
This partly ties in with the points below on the story, but I just wanted to highlight a certain aspect of the soundtrack, or more specifically how it is used.
The music here is not used to give atmosphere or tone to a scene. It is used SPECIFICALLY to tell you how to feel at this point in the film (because the writing and performances are so bland and flat that we need to be TOLD what emotions we should be feeling).
Seriously there is TWO main pieces that play over and OVER. The first is the “dun-dun” slow theme from Man of Steel. This is for when something is meant to be sad, or profound in some way. The second is some orchestral, choir-infused bombastic tune that plays whenever there is action or “heroism” on the screen.
I would like to say however that Wonder Woman’s theme (or what I assume to be her theme) was actually pretty cool. It has this sort of “electronic-techno-tribal” underscoring/twang to it that was pretty cool
6) Lex Luthor.
Mis-cast. I generally didn’t have a problem with the characterization of Lex. He had some seriously diabolic machinations going on lol I just felt they came across weak and childish with casting and direction of Jesse Eisenburg. Note, I don’t think he is a bad actor to be fair. Just that this role would have been better with a slightly more mature and/or older actor as Lex Luthor (more akin to Jeff Bridges in Iron Man).
7) The plot.
Now we get to the crux of what makes this film so bad. The story is just too dumb and contrived to take seriously. It requires SO MANY leaps of logic as to be laughable. Some examples include:
a) Lex Luthor somehow knows that BOTH Bruce Wayne is Batman, and Clark Kent is Superman
b) The servers holding this “vital information that Wonder Woman wants back” are located next to the kitchen
c) To extract this information, Bruce Wayne simply plugs a hard drive into a conveniently exposed usb-like cable
d) Lex takes control of an alien spaceship, simply by making fake fingerprints
e) Lex executes a “dangerous” command, which the ship AI says requires “council approval” simply by saying something like “screw it”. Like, there is no code to input, no security whatsoever. This action MUST happen for film logic, so it does.
f) How was Lex supposed to control Doomsday anyway??? The first thing Doomsday does is try to kill Lex. If Superman wasn’t there, Lex would be dead. What was Lex’s plan for Doomsday again???
g) The “main event” should have lasted 1 min.
I want to elaborate on that last point and explain. This is not about Superman being more powerful then Batman, or Batman being smarter then Superman. The whole thing is predicated on some hokey manipulation on Lex’s part of both Batman and Superman. Fine, we can let that slide a little bit.
BUT. Lex explains the whole thing to Superman before he flies off to fight Batman.
All Superman had to do was say “Bruce, we have been had. Lex has manipulated us like this.” Then Batman would be like “Erm, yeah now that you mention it, that all makes sense”.
Fight averted.
Now some may say that Superman did try to explain, then walked into a trap. Fine. Then here is what you do Supes. You STOP WALKING!
Seriously, fly up into the sky and then explain the situation.
Fight averted.
h) Stop trying to be John Milton
I want to put this in bold for emphasis - stop thinking you are writing Paradise Lost or that your story is as epic as that work. You do NOT have the talent to do it! All I hear about this movie, mainly from interviews from Zach Snyder, is that this is so "deep", full of "philosophical debate"; blah, blah, blah. No. Its just pretentious crap. Superman is not Jesus, has never been seen or claimed he was ever GOD. Why would people think this? Shoving religious imagery and lame connections into the film does NOT make it epic or art. That is school boy thinking.
i) The killing of Doomsday and the sacrifice of Superman
No. Here is what you do Big Blue. That spear is Kryptonite right? You FLY at SUPER SPEED and pick up Wonder Woman. Then you either 1) Fly her back QUICKLY til she is range and you don’t get exposed to the Kryptonite for too long; or 2) let WONDER WOMAN just throw the fricking spear. She’s an AMAZON GODDESS, I’m sure she can fling that toothpick into the walking man-mountain that is Doomsday with pinpoint accuracy.
j) “MARTHA!”
‘Nuff said.
Conclusion:
I could go on about this but I will stop there. Like I said in the opening, is it the worst film ever made? No. Is it the worst comic book film ever made? Nope.
But given the amount of money spent on it, and the supposed thought put into it, THIS is the best you could come up with? Again, DC (more specifically WB) miss the boat. What should have been built up naturally was rushed out in an attempt to grab some cash instead of making a good film.
The film is nothing more than establishing the Justice League/franchise films to come. Like I’ve said before, this is suits making comic book films. They looked at all the money Marvel is making and said “How can we get a piece of that pie as quick as possible?”
Batman V Superman is the answer.
Peace.
/K
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- kikass2014
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Was the movie perfect? No. I thought it dragged a little in the first hour. Plus the bit of jarring scenes mentioned above. Even then, as a comic fan, I was enjoying the buildup to the fight(s).
Here is a video review from a guy who really got this movie (Warning, if you haven't seen it yet, it does contain spoilers):
I couldn't get the video to embed so you'll have to click the link. He went in expecting to hate it but ended up loving it.
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- jdrock24
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Kinda spoilery stuff here, so be warned.......
I think the movie kinda did take on a little too much, TBH. Because of that, pacing (as Kikass stated) tends to suffer at the hands of the writers who are trying to tell too much story as well as the hands of the editors which inevitably have to pare down the movie. That said, it wasn't all that bad I thought. There was certainly some rushed moments (creation of Doomsday and the "Martha" change of heart), but I thought certain elements were enough to overcome it.
I thought the fight scenes with Batman were amazingly choreographed, and his "killings" didn't bother me that much. He was intrinsically the same character, just a little more jaded (which was apparent). I thought Affleck was really good.
Likewise, I thought the handling of Doomsday was really good. CGI characters are often hit or miss, and I thought they did a good job with him.
Gal Gadot's lines were limited but she still won me over in the action scenes. She looked phenominal as a warrior in the battle with Doomsday. When she got splattered and got up and grinned like "now you're gonna get it" was a mini-iconic moment in the movie I thought.
Things I thought weren't all that great? Lex was annoying at times. I understand the whole "mad genius" take on the character which I didn't have a problem with, but I found myself wanting less "mad" and more "genius". Something else I didn't/don't like is the checmistry between Adams and Cavill as Supes and Lois. Cavill looks the part and Adams is an excellent actress in other stuff, but they seem to lose something together. I kinda thought the same in MOS but now it really hits me. I can't put my finger on it, but its something about them that doesn't resonate with me.
I found it kind funny that everyone made fun of MOS for all the collateral damage and bystanders killed. Then, it this movie, it was almost as if Snyder said "yeah? ok....fuck you!" and seemed to up the ante with even more razing of the cities.
I personally would prefer a lighter tone to the DCUniverse movies (like the Flash), but it's clear they are going the grittier route with Snyder at the helm. I'm not personally a big fan of his work, but I thought he did a decent enough job to keep his job and do the Justice League movie (though they haven't sought out my opinion)
Finally, I've been in several FB "discussions" on the box office numbers. If you wanna go see it, go see it. Don't let some crackpot theory -- which isn't even thought out --- of "declining Fri-Sun" numbers dissuade you. I'm glad I did!
ElF
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- lfan
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www.esquire.com/entertainment/movies/new...f-batman-v-superman/
www.vice.com/read/batman-v-superman-is-a...source=vicetwitterus
I'm going to see it a second time on Thursday. I'll have to watch it closer for more interesting things I might have missed the first time.
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- jdrock24
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See this is not about “loving” or “hating”. It’s about “good film” or “bad film”.
I didn’t “hate” Batman V Superman, why would I? You clearly like it and that’s fair enough. I can like something you hate and it wouldn’t make it a good film.
Prime example, I LOVE Sucker Punch. Do I think it’s a great, thought-provoking piece of art? No. Do I think it’s the best storytelling since sliced bread? No. Do I think it’s a great film? No. It’s rubbish. It has many flaws. Doesn’t change how I feel about it.
And Batman V Superman is a bad film. It’s a bad film because nothing makes sense. Stuff just “happens”.
As a comic book fan, I would personally have preferred a BETTER Batman film, better Superman film, a MUCH BETTER take on the DC universe as a whole. But, like JD pointed out, I said this was going to bad from the beginning. If I was the only person, or the minority, fair enough. But it seems the majority are saying the same thing.
I’m sure we could go back and forth on this (as we have done over the past year ) but I think we should just agree to disagree.
I won’t click the link to see some review, not because I don’t trust you (I’m 100% safe in clicking it should I want too), but because we could both find positive and negative reviews for it and it wouldn’t validate either argument.
Plus the, “You’re not smart enough to get it” – argument is used a lot. So I will add this. On this I am making my own decisions based on WHAT I SAW IN THE FILM.
Now to give credence to that last part, I just want to say a few things.
I will let all the points slide EXCEPT the story points I’ve made (of which I could write quite a few more of), and can be validated by watching the film.
I’ll give Batman killing, Snyder being a good director, etc.
But.
Please explain those plot holes. Or did I make them up? Because I’m pretty sure a) they are there; and b) I’m sure I’m not the only one who has made these (and other) observations.
Just thinking about it now, I will give a little SLIDE on the first one – Lex knowing Batman is Bruce Wayne and Superman is Clark Kent. One could assume that, since he was keeping tabs on WW, Flash, etc. that it is not inconceivable that he could have had a folder for Batman and Superman. /shrug
However. Feel free with the others.
Peace.
/K
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- kikass2014
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Now in BvS its Deductive. If you Don't know who Superman is you would be in trouble here-not just Man of Steel but in general. Becuse the movies entire plot more or less hinges on the fact in comics He is a Boyscout character a doogooder who rescuses kittens from trees and saves humanity thanklessly., and to a certain extent Kent things hes a good man for doing this. Lex Luthor is his mad scientist Villian enemy, Lois Lane Loves him etc.
Batman similary-it expects you to know a lot about his character, Wonder Woman her character,
The movies entire story is dependent on it, as its not so much that it throws it out the window , as it tweaks it, and changes the perspective of it. Superman thinks hes a good man, and for all the bitching and moaning in reviews is a good man. Hes a little stupider then in some versions of the story, but hes not a diffrent character if purely go by decades of existing superman comics. There is never a point in the story where he really does anything thats wrong or not helpful. and Agian he thinks hes a good man, and the movie honestly really doesn't spend that much time showing us. But .he World or some aspect of the world thinks hes not(), and Were in the world perceptinve(represented as it often is mostly by Batman), though i do like the various Media Personalities from Neil Degrass Tyson to Nancy Grace giving opinions). This tension is all over the movie, not batman vs superman, but 1 version of superman vs the other.
Which is kinda challenging as the movies plot really is about this tensions both for him and Batman(and one of the movies flaws to a certain extent is it doesn't do a good a job and Explaining the worlds opinon of Batman as its suposed to be a matching story, though i kinda get the sence by now Batman is old news). Is this oscar worthy Depth-no but it is kinda challenging which is rare in a 250 million dollar film, and actually pretty rare in anythg
That more then anything is something i will keep from the film-which is something.
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- castor
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kikass2014 wrote: Please explain those plot holes. Or did I make them up? Because I’m pretty sure a) they are there; and b) I’m sure I’m not the only one who has made these (and other) observations./K
Okay, here we go. I'll take these one at a time (Note: I guess I still should put Spoiler tags on this):
a) Lex Luthor somehow knows that BOTH Bruce Wayne is Batman, and Clark Kent is Superman
Easy, he is a mad genius who keeps track of anything that may threaten his standing in the world. You said that you would let this one slide so I won't expand further.
b) The servers holding this “vital information that Wonder Woman wants back” are located next to the kitchen
I'm no computer expert but does it really matter where an access point is in order to gain said access to network? I assumed that Lex owned the building and hence was a part of Luthor's network. The storage area by the kitchen was probably the most out-of-the-way place to access it. How is this a "plot hole" again?
c) To extract this information, Bruce Wayne simply plugs a hard drive into a conveniently exposed usb-like cable
Again, I'm not a computer expert, but I'm sitting here at my computer typing this and I have a bunch of USB outlets. I even have a USB extender (Is that what you call them?) cable that gives me even more. So why is it so far fetched that there was one there to begin with or that Bruce had one with him that he easily installed? He is Batman after all.
d) Lex takes control of an alien spaceship, simply by making fake fingerprints
Did you watch the movie? It was Zod's ship from Man of Steel so when he accessed it with Zod's fingerprints the ship assumed he was him and gave him command.
e) Lex executes a “dangerous” command, which the ship AI says requires “council approval” simply by saying something like “screw it”. Like, there is no code to input, no security whatsoever. This action MUST happen for film logic, so it does.
Honestly, I don't remember that particular line. However, Zod was the leader of the last Kryptonians after the planet blew up so is it so hard to believe that he couldn't tell the ship to do exactly what he wanted? Also, there are strong hints, especially during Lex's rant at the end that he may have been under the influence of Darkseid by this point.
f) How was Lex supposed to control Doomsday anyway??? The first thing Doomsday does is try to kill Lex. If Superman wasn’t there, Lex would be dead. What was Lex’s plan for Doomsday again???
Did you miss the part about Lex being a crazy megalomaniac? The original plan was to have Batman kill Superman. I'm sure he didn't know what he was going to find when he finally got access to Zod's ship but when he did and found out that he could make an indestructible killing machine, he thought it would be a nice Plan B.
g) The “main event” should have lasted 1 min.
Superman didn't want to fight Batman. In fact, Superman was there to get his help. However, as it played out, Batman was having none of it and wasn't even listening. Also, once BM proved that he could actually hurt him, one could not blame SM for getting a little ticked off and fighting back.
h) Stop trying to be John Milton
Not exactly sure how this is a "plot hole"? Are you using the term correctly?
i) The killing of Doomsday and the sacrifice of Superman
Why didn't he give the spear to Wonder Woman? Maybe because he's just seen her for the first time and has no idea who she is and what she can do? Plus, at the time, if you'll recall, she was holding down Doomsday with her lasso. She was a little busy, don't you think?
j) “MARTHA!”
Again, I don't think you are using the term "plot hole" correctly? See the video in my post above for why this is so poignant of a moment.
I don't mind agreeing to disagree. Motion pictures are a form of art and people see works of art differently all the time. However, when people who hate the movie point out insignificant things like this in order to convince themselves and others the movie is bad comes off sounding a bit agenda driven. What that agenda is, I have no idea? It sounds like in your case you just want to see YOUR version of Superman (whatever that may be) and anything different from that must be crapped upon.
I'm seeing the film again tomorrow with my kids. We watched MOS yesterday and talked about it afterward in order to prepare them for it (I still had to fast forward through the awkward cussing parts (Thank God Goyer is gone in BM v SM)). I'll look for some more things I might have missed the first time and see if I notice anything new.
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- jdrock24
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Hopefully we can meet one day over a drink and discuss this in more detail
But for now, we will agree to disagree
Peace.
/K
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- kikass2014
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- Woodclaw
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- My 10 year old had no trouble following the plot. Shame the critics couldn't...
- Both kids and wife cried at the end. To be honest, after watching that video review I posted above, I choked up at a couple of parts also.
- People clapped again when Wonder Woman appeared.
- Noticed Wonder Woman smile during the fight (like she was enjoying the challenge). Did not notice that the first time.
- My kids had no problems while viewing the movie. I warned them that there would be some scary parts so they were prepared and were okay. I know some people have been saying it is too violent for kids but my kids were fine with it. (Note: I'm not taking them within 100 yards of a Deadpool showing. Those parents who did that are out of their minds.)
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- jdrock24
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/K
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- kikass2014
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I've been trying to pin point why I don't like this movie. Ben Affleck as Batman? Nope - that actually works well. Gal Gadot as WW? - She's not in it long enough to understand her character, but she pulls off the role. Maye it was a cacophony of too many characters? I don't think it was any of that.
I began asking myself, why I like Daredevil so much. Yeah its pretty violent, well choreographed but most importantly its the KingPin. I think Daredevils KingPin has to be the best portrayal of any Marvel baddie to date. When I reflected on how awesome the bad guy is in Dare Devil, I finally realized why batman vs superman wasn't that good. Because the villains suck.
I never bought Lex Luthor.... and the creation of Dooms Day was the equivalent of Picard talking to his computer.
"Computer, tea, earl gray, hot"
"But Captain, Starfleet regulations advise a maximum temperature of 90 degrees"
"Damn it computer, I said Hot"
And of Course Superman shows up in the nick of time to save the Captain from drinking the hot tea. Sound silly?.....I think so too =)
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- d_k_c
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d_k_c wrote: Okay, here's why Batman vs Superman is Bad....
I've been trying to pin point why I don't like this movie. Ben Affleck as Batman? Nope - that actually works well. Gal Gadot as WW? - She's not in it long enough to understand her character, but she pulls off the role. Maye it was a cacophony of too many characters? I don't think it was any of that.
I began asking myself, why I like Daredevil so much. Yeah its pretty violent, well choreographed but most importantly its the KingPin. I think Daredevils KingPin has to be the best portrayal of any Marvel baddie to date. When I reflected on how awesome the bad guy is in Dare Devil, I finally realized why batman vs superman wasn't that good. Because the villains suck.
I never bought Lex Luthor.... and the creation of Dooms Day was the equivalent of Picard talking to his computer.
"Computer, tea, earl gray, hot"
"But Captain, Starfleet regulations advise a maximum temperature of 90 degrees"
"Damn it computer, I said Hot"
And of Course Superman shows up in the nick of time to save the Captain from drinking the hot tea. Sound silly?.....I think so too =)
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- jdrock24
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That said-i totally agree with DKC that Domesday was introduced a touch clumsily, more like they needed him in the plot at the end but where a little unsure of how to get them there. A better way would be of him just to be made in the lab, but i think wanted the idea that he was an ancient krypton wepion. The time in the krypttonian ship was all...not well done.
That said i do think his ploting and his stiring the shit of batman and superman was well done and i think overall it was wellish done
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- castor
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@JDRock24
Why the Jon Stewart.gif? I think d_k_c hit it spot on.
Out of curiosity, what did you find wrong with movie?
Peace.
/K
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- kikass2014
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kikass2014 wrote: I agree. Doomsday was handled so poorly. His menace, power and threat should have been built up towards, not shoved in (like a lot of thing in this film). And they could of spent more time on how he looked too.
@JDRock24
Why the Jon Stewart.gif? I think d_k_c hit it spot on.
Out of curiosity, what did you find wrong with movie?
Peace.
/K
The gif was because of the Captain Picard to Luthor comparison. I mean, what the heck was he even talking about?
As for what I found wrong with the movie: I said above that the movie seems to drag until the fights start. The Knightmare sequence threw me the first time I watched it but was totally okay the second time.
Okay, now I'm going to throw this question right back at you:
What did you find right with the movie Mr. kikass2014?
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- jdrock24
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To answer your question, and perhaps surprisingly, there were some things I did LIKE about the movie. To be fair it isn't a lot, but it's something.
I felt Affleck's portrayal of Batman (and Bruce Wayne) was pretty good. His movement, menace when he is Batman, physicality were all good. He embodied an older, more mature Batman. I was probably most surprised by this as I have to admit, I was one of those that was "WTF???" when it was announced he would be playing the part. Hands up, he won me over.
Same goes for Cavil as Superman. Physically he looks the part.
I really liked Wonder Woman's theme
Aesthetically there was a lot of great looking stuff (as there is with all Snyder films, its what he is best at). A little too much slow-mo, but meh, I didn't mind it.
And that's about it. Unfortunately all the good is weighed down by the shear amount of bad stuff, that there really isn't much left. Even die-hard comic-book fans (especially fans of Batman and Superman, who you would think would LOVE this film), say this films is bad.
Peace.
/K
P.S. I am actually surprised that you didn't understand what d_k_c was saying. His "Picard" description is actually not that complicated, or wrong.
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- kikass2014
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I'll put em in spoilers for hecks though not all of them are spoilers.
2. Batmans Iconography was well done-Liked the fact that his new manor was a moderninistc and looks to be not that large house. Liked the costume, and how it suggested he had a complicated history without really going into detail of it, with the joker stuff, the burnt house, and robin. I realize that some of this stuff is going to be added back to the r rated version but whats here work. At the same time liked the costume and car and thought it did a good job of looking modernish and powerful, while yeah very much evoking the Dark Knight returns.
3. Aflecks Batman- It was from top to bottom a good performance. There is the line by Nolan that batman was 3 people, Bruce Wayne the public guy, Batman and him in private. What i liked was...he played it more or less the same guy. Yeah in a couple of scenes you could see that he was playing a rich ashole, but he wasn't playing him that hard. He was a driven, but not unlikable guy trying to do something he belived in- if 20 years had taken his toll on what ever optimism he had. One of the problems i have with batman as a character is: Some days he fights crooks in the street, and somedays he punches out Darksied. This is the first of the latter in any live action media, and he did it well. He was super competent...but still human and it worked.
4. Jeremy Irons Alfried- Micheal Cane played Alfried as a man who wants to go back to something, who wants to change Bruce even as helps him. Not so much here. Hes given up This is the first Alfried who is just pissed off at Wayne and that does work. Hes not a likable guy and he knows it. hes just doing a job hes made his peace with it, even as the movie goes on he realizes that Wayne is doing the wrong thing-but what can he do? its a goodAlfried for this character.
5. Gal Gadot as Wonder Woman- She wasn't given a lot to. We don't know her motivations. at the End of the second act i have no idea where she is suposed to be(shes in plane to fly someplace? where to, where from?). Shes worried about a picture of her? Why? Hasn't she seen that picture of Nicholas cage from the civil war? Why is she here?
But its still an effective character. becuse she uses the momments she has. When the third act comes and she becomes wonder Woman-she just owns it. She looks like a badass and smiles like a badass-shes never scared, but shes also never to hostile. she simply looks and acts like shes knows what shes doing and she can fight and destroy creatures from other worlds. Simple as that.
And in her momments out of costume-she does a good job of suggesting not that so much shes a mysterious, but that there is a mystery-it does kind work for all of it. Its not necessairly Wonder Woman in the comics who never seems so cloak and dagger in a cocktail dress-but its a character.
6. Perry White & the Daily Planet -like how they kinda played it as a realistic modern paper. Unlike Supergirl where it feels a touch...fantasy, i like how they acknowledged that yeah this is a struggling business and we have to send people coach. the set design here-if it was a set-did a good job of feeling just like an office nothing speical. Fishburne finally given something more to do then be a glorified cameo i felt did his best with the material he was given.
7. The Batman Action sequences- Yeah the car chase did involve a lot of ...um murder. and i can see why people didn't like that(though the concept that batman has guns on his car has been around awhile). Beyond it..just wasn't a good carchase
That said the other two main action sequences-the first in the white slavers building was a great sence of establishing character and tension and making people seem afraid...and the second in the warehouse was just an amazing fight to make him seem like a badass. I feels like something out of the Arkham Assylum games in the best way. These where great, and did do what i think this movie did well as compared to the nolan movies-seem like you know what was going.
8. . The Batman Vs Superman fight-This is kinda dumb conceptually-but they do a good job of selling it. I realize there is a lot of comments on"oh thats not superman(which i am going to get to) but one thing the recent supermans have done is played with the idea of what does superman do when his powers aren't quite what he wants"-and this really does sell the idea that superman doesn't actually want to hurt batman, but at some point he doesn't have any other options. Beyond it is simply a well constructed easy to follow action sequence that genuinely works to keep both characters front and center.
9. Lex Luthor-There are dumb lex luthor bits-the krypton space ship as i mentioned is a short hand that doesn't work-but that said his iconography as a billionare millenail genus does work and does give him a good sence of quirky menace-they also do a good job of showing him as a guy who can talk and slide his way into situations and the setup of the senate scene was great an unexpected suprise that in retrospect is setup but works. Like also how they kinda establish enough of Mercys character that when she randomly died you kinda feel for her-and his scene with superman at the end of the first act is a great haha i have the power scene. Yeah they don't do a great job of establishing his motivation-but kinda they don't have to. he seems great as a guy who just can't stand a good man in the world, which yeah i have seen.
10. Knightmare Scene-its just a well constructed clever little scene that yeah is a fake out dream sequence, but is well done in every sence. a good job of establish evil superman for one beat, and a werid superman army which was consistent with what we had scene, clever iconography(yeah the concept that Superman=Arab Terroist is something that is certainly intentionall)-and though it is yeah a dream sequence the appearence of Flash at the end, thats a genuinely good bit.
11. Superman-As i have said before. there is a Superman in the comics-the red and blue guy who stands for truth justice and the american way. This is in this movie. 100% he never really does anything evil, or particuarly selfish, and seems always motivated by a desire to help. There is also a superman in the comic who doubts if hes doing the right thing or doing not enough, but who knows beeing decent in the long run is what to do if he has to be superman.
This is all in here. And Cavil more or less does a great job of selling it. Yeah the rommance with Lois is a little shakey, yeah the the reason he hates batman but no one else seems to care is a nice touch, butcould have been handled there. And it is all there....
but the world doesn't see it. nor should they necessairly. Even as it introduces kryptonite it realizes that sometimes the easily thing to hurt is his reputation-and the movie knows that, how it would effect a human being-and i like that. this is a movie about the contrast between superman image and his character and its presents both, and it does a good job of presenting both. It introduces Batman the Dick Cheny quoting guy to do it-which is not subtle but its there. He is the other. How do we view him.
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- castor
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So, the only things you felt were wrong with the film was the pacing up to the fight? Really? That's all that is wrong with this film?
In my view, yes.
Even die-hard comic-book fans (especially fans of Batman and Superman, who you would think would LOVE this film), say this films is bad.
P.S. I am actually surprised that you didn't understand what d_k_c was saying. His "Picard" description is actually not that complicated, or wrong.
I didn't understand because it made no sense. Are you telling me that the characters of Captain Picard and Lex Luthor are analogous to one other because they can order their computer to do things for them? I mean, which Next Generation episode was it where Picard ordered the Enterprise computer to create an ancient killing machine from a long dead planet? I honestly don't remember...
There are articles popping up all over the net about the emotional themes running through BM v SM. I've already posted a couple. It is unfortunate that some will dismiss them (or worse, refuse to think about them) because this is a "superhero movie" and should be "fun" and crack jokes every five seconds.
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- jdrock24
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jdrock24 wrote:
P.S. I am actually surprised that you didn't understand what d_k_c was saying. His "Picard" description is actually not that complicated, or wrong.
I didn't understand because it made no sense. Are you telling me that the characters of Captain Picard and Lex Luthor are analogous to one other because they can order their computer to do things for them? I mean, which Next Generation episode was it where Picard ordered the Enterprise computer to create an ancient killing machine from a long dead planet? I honestly don't remember...
I think that what DKC meant was that the scene played out more like someone ignoring a simple precaution meant to prevent an unpleasant -- but harmless -- consequence, rather than going through a complex and dangerous procedure that should feature multiple failsafes and security measures. On one hand this is trying to apply real world logic to a comicbook/movie situation, although one could argue that a man of Luthor's supposed intelligence should implement those features for his own survival.
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