Iron Man 3's female villain was nixed by corporate.

www.vox.com/2016/5/16/11684900/iron-man-...-villain-shane-black

Grr. Smash.

I see signs that this mindset is changing, but too slowly.

Hmmmmm, another story about how Marvel mistreats the women in their movies? I would comment but instead I'll just continue...

I love how Black went to great lengths to not say "Ike Perlmutter".

again:

comicsalliance.com/ike-perlmutter-thinks-female-led-films-bomb/

and (most importantly):

www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/marvel-sh...up-film-chief-819205

For those who don't know, Ike Perlmutter came from the toy industry so is OBVIOUSLY the person that Black was referring to as "Marvel Corporate".

So yes, I'm not surprised at this, and why it was nixed. But just as this is a story, it's as story that Perlmutter was REMOVED from affecting the movies. He was removed for many reasons, but this is probably one of them. One only has to look at Disney's recent and future movies to see what they think on this topic. ie.e Maleficent, Inside Out, The Force Awakens, Rouge One, The Alice movies. There are even slated films like Queen of Katwe. I don't think Disney is afraid of female-led movies, and I suspect hearing that from Ike just helped him out the door. (He was mostly likely removed for reasons mentioned in the article, i.e. being hard to work with. But this is just one specific symptom of that, and Iron Man 3 is an example of how it got in they way.)

Marvel Television still reports to Ike Perlmutter, which is probably why it's still sucking. Marvel desperately needs it's own version of Bruce Timm, and to get that person to report to Feige. (And everyone needs an Andrea Romano when doing voice work).

Yup, nailed it TwiceOnThursday. Shane Black is obviously referring to Perlmutter in the article.

Glad Ike has been removed from the picture.

Pity some people are just ignorant. "...mistreats the women in their movies". Move along muppet , nothing to see here. Move along.

Peace.

/K

I did some searching to find out if the Netflix stuff was under Marvel Television. It appears that it is, from what I can find out. I do wonder if they've kept Perlmutter away from it. Usually when something is done, and done publicly, like get Feige out from under Perlmutter, there would be some direction left to Perlmutter. It was reported widely as a rebuke, so I can't imagine someone didn't take him aside and say "Don't fuck up the Netflix deal".

The main Marvel people involved are Loeb and Quesada (who I have my own problems with, but is 100x better than Perlmutter).

The second thing Marvel/Netflix did is Jessica Jones, so I suspect that he's being kept hands off.

TwiceOnThursdays wrote: I did some searching to find out if the Netflix stuff was under Marvel Television. It appears that it is, from what I can find out. I do wonder if they've kept Perlmutter away from it. Usually when something is done, and done publicly, like get Feige out from under Perlmutter, there would be some direction left to Perlmutter. It was reported widely as a rebuke, so I can't imagine someone didn't take him aside and say "Don't fuck up the Netflix deal".

The main Marvel people involved are Loeb and Quesada (who I have my own problems with, but is 100x better than Perlmutter).

The second thing Marvel/Netflix did is Jessica Jones, so I suspect that he's being kept hands off.

Also, I don't think they're expecting the Netflix shows to spin off a lot of toys, which is all Ike really seems to care about.

geekseven wrote:

TwiceOnThursdays wrote: I did some searching to find out if the Netflix stuff was under Marvel Television. It appears that it is, from what I can find out. I do wonder if they've kept Perlmutter away from it. Usually when something is done, and done publicly, like get Feige out from under Perlmutter, there would be some direction left to Perlmutter. It was reported widely as a rebuke, so I can't imagine someone didn't take him aside and say "Don't fuck up the Netflix deal".

The main Marvel people involved are Loeb and Quesada (who I have my own problems with, but is 100x better than Perlmutter).

The second thing Marvel/Netflix did is Jessica Jones, so I suspect that he's being kept hands off.

Also, I don't think they're expecting the Netflix shows to spin off a lot of toys, which is all Ike really seems to care about.

Wouldn't that be great? Some Jessica Jones dolls complete with bottle of vodka.

And yeah, every time Ike's being a dick it seems that he's driven by toy sales. Or being upset at Fox as they won't give back FF (which is why there isn't currently a FF comic at Marvel or one in the works. I think this might be a first for Marvel since 1961).

Funny 2014 is also the year Disney has Released Frozen, which i have argued before is basically a Female Superhero movie, and is certainly a female protaginist lead movie. It did better at the box office then Iron Man 3 did . They also did some merchandising for this movie. I went to a store the other day and found some still avaiable. Also there was a song.

Last year they released Force Awakens, which is also arguably a female superhero movie. There was some question about toys and avalability and outcry over that-the bottom line is (to quote a movie) from a certain point of view disney made a billion dollar movie-and left money on the table becuse of it. They would have sold that Rey action figures.

There followup also has a female lead-or a female lead ensamble-but unlike Force awakens-there not hidding that.

So Yeah Disney you can argue is changing...but who knows.

I'll just leave this here:

Trollolololol do be do be do….ah what the hell, have a bit of time to kill.

You do realise that this is not a Marvel problem, but a HOLLYWOOD problem right? And one does not have to be a genius to realise why this is the case. It’s simple. Most of Hollywood is run by men (heck most of the world for that matter).

So, with that insight, what would be the logical outcome? Right. Most films will feature male heroes squaring up against male villains (particularly in the days up to about the 80s I would posit).

With that said, I ask, what is the point you are making?

Most people, male and female, don’t care if the hero is male or female. They don’t care if the villain is male or female. If it they did, how do you explain this:

"Captain America: Civil War:

Total Lifetime Grosses:

Domestic: $300,717,303 31.1%
+ Foreign: $665,300,000 68.9%
= Worldwide: $966,017,303

Domestic Summary:

Opening Weekend: $179,139,142
(#1 rank, 4,226 theaters, $42,390 average)
% of Total Gross: 59.6%

Widest Release: 4,226 theaters

In Release: 11 days / 1.6 weeks"

I’ve seen many reviews of Civil War (since that is the movie referenced in the clip), from males and FEMALES. Not one of them ever mentioned the gender of heroes or villain. You know what they did mention? How awesome the movie was.

The only people that seem to care about stuff like this (whether the villain is male or female) are SJWs like yourself and femi-nazis.

So, I ask again, what is the point you are making?

Peace.

/K

lfan wrote: Guys....c'mon....do we have to rehash this yet AGAIN?!?!

Geez.....

ElF

No. I guess old kikass got triggered again. Any bit of joke or mild criticism of the MCU seems to do that to him.

What a good story need is a character that has a well-rounded and believable personality, regardless of his or hers gender.

100% agree Woodclaw. The basis should be "what is the character" not the gender.

While Iron Man 3 ranks very close to the bottom of my personal Avengers' Top Movies List, I don't think that having a female villain would have made it any better.

Agree. Iron Man 3 is ok, but like you say the gender of the villain would not have improved it.


Peace.

/K

What I will say is that in a year with the first viable female candidate for US President (not to mention the following years if she gets elected), TV shows and movies with female leads will explode in the US. So from a marketing/financial reason, emphasizing female leads will make sense, at least for a while.

But I agree with Woodclaw and others that in the ideal world, gender should not matter, only good characterization.

But movies change with the culture. James Bond could never have been a a woman back in the 60's. Hell, he was and out and out womanizer, yet he was also the most popular leading character in the movies for some time. That franchise is still alive.

Science fiction feature movies (despite being future-looking progressive in many ways) had very few strong, female main characters until Ripley came along. I'm oversimplifying, but Jane Fonda as Barbarella was the memorable role for a woman in SF movies prior to Ripley.

So gender WILL matter, and whoever takes best advantage of that first and best will make money. I think DC is getting that message, but maybe not so much with Marvel, who lean toward male characters as they always have. They also know their audience.

But this toy thing, and how it backs its way into character decisions, that seems really wrong. But that said, good authors know what kind of characters their target audience wants to read about, so economic forces have often shaped character creation and gender. In the extreme, look at SWM. Gender of characters is vital for this audience.

In the six decades I've been watching movies, no time has been better than this for putting strong females on the screen. The fact that we are also getting some superheroines is beyond expectation.

This is, I think a very fair assessment, we often overlook: stories and storytellers changes with time and each age produces stories that reflect that reflect a certain moment and sensibility.

Without a doubt, art is certainly influenced by the times it is created in.

In the six decades I've been watching movies, no time has been better than this for putting strong females on the screen. The fact that we are also getting some superheroines is beyond expectation.

I agree.

But movies change with the culture. James Bond could never have been a woman back in the 60's. Hell, he was and out and out womanizer, yet he was also the most popular leading character in the movies for some time. That franchise is still alive.

This is an interesting point. Could James Bond be a woman now? Jane Bond? Would it still be a “Bond Film” if 007 were female? Or is it the very fact that James Bond is a man, that makes it a James Bond film?

Another case, and one debated a lot amongst its fans lately, could Dr. Who be a female? Logically one could answer “yes” as it fits in with the mythology (regeneration). Or like Bond, is the fact that the Doctor is male the key defining characteristic of his character? Where is the line between gender and character?

Peace.

/K

kikass2014 wrote:

This is, I think a very fair assessment, we often overlook: stories and storytellers changes with time and each age produces stories that reflect that reflect a certain moment and sensibility.

Without a doubt, art is certainly influenced by the times it is created in.

In the six decades I've been watching movies, no time has been better than this for putting strong females on the screen. The fact that we are also getting some superheroines is beyond expectation.

I agree.

But movies change with the culture. James Bond could never have been a woman back in the 60's. Hell, he was and out and out womanizer, yet he was also the most popular leading character in the movies for some time. That franchise is still alive.

This is an interesting point. Could James Bond be a woman now? Jane Bond? Would it still be a “Bond Film” if 007 were female? Or is it the very fact that James Bond is a man, that makes it a James Bond film?

Peace.

/K

But heres the thing.

Every 3- 4 years(depends, doing it a little faster) We see a Bond movie-who have been 100 White Male Actors.

But Every year or so i see a movie that you can desribe as want to be James Bond. Mission Impossible Franchise is a prime example(the first one feels diffrent enough but MI II and beyond is 95% bond), but there plenty of one offs trys-I spies, Man From U.N.C.L.E etc Some Are Parodies (knight and Day, Tuxedo) to. And some kind of reimaginations( XXX is tough James Bond, FF gets more james bond every time), but all kinda fit in my estimation

The "kinda fun not particuarly realistic Spy Film" is a big genre...and probabbly contains 100s of movies.

I have seen Black James Bond(Westly Snipes Art of War), Tuxedo has an asian james bond.

But- and i may be missing something: i don't think i have seen a single Female James Bond.

Now there are some low budget movies from the 70s you could argue-the modesty Blaise series-but those are 40 years old at this point. Yeah there is soft core and straight up porn that has it I am talking high Budget or even moderate budget modern action james bond movies.

Plenty of 'james bond' movie have kickass female characters. Its increasingly a staple of the genre- the girl who gets a good fit in(usually 1), mostly turns into a love intrest, and by the third act is frequently tied up to let the james bond character do his thing. Sometimes these are fun(Fergensun from Mission imposible III) sometimes awful(Halie Berry in Die another day)...but thats the genre. Shes not the hero. Shes the girl.

Now i could talk myself out of this: Theres movies like Salt-but that Feels like a straight up thriller to me. The TV show less so but the original La Femme Nikita really has a little to rough a tone for it. Hanna Does feel like it...but its also a movie about a kid. I guess you could argue Point of No Return the Nikita Remake kinda qualifies but.....

Yeah i am kinda blanking here. Anyone help out.

Becuse yeah i do think this kinda movie could be really cool, and i am not sure you have to wait for ION here to make it. As Been Said pretty much anything in bond is a playful version of something that has been another action movie-so wait for them to copy.

castor wrote:
The "kinda fun not particuarly realistic Spy Film" is a big genre...and probabbly contains 100s of movies.

I have seen Black James Bond(Westly Snipes Art of War), Tuxedo has an asian james bond.

But- and i may be missing something: i don't think i have seen a single Female James Bond.

....mentions Salt, La Femme Nikita, Hanna, Point of No Return ....


Yeah i am kinda blanking here. Anyone help out.

.

I thought a bit thinking this would be easy. It's not. I have to be missing something.

TV: Alias. And La Femme Nikita, and Nikita They're not quite matches...

Agent Carter (this might be the best match, though translated to episodic TV)

Homeland (not watched it, but it's probably too realistic for a James Bond fit)

The Americans (also not watched it, spy for the other side. Oddly, based on a TRUE modern story, even though the show is set in the past) But I suspect this also isn't James Bond.

Not the star of the show, but Shaw from Person of Interest.

And Hunted. (I think you recommend this to me, I remembered it as I checked my Amazon and netflix queues looking for things).

Movies:

Long Kiss Goodnight? Not quite a spy movie. And it's been too long since I watched it.

Haywire doesn't quite fit either (I think too much focus on the fighting).

She's sandwiched in a Super-hero movie, but Black Widow is essentially James Bond. Cool under pressure, gadgets, etc. James Bond wishes he were as cool as she was in the Avengers chair scene.

Damn. It does seem like I should be able to find a DIRECT female comparison.

I do wish they'd make a movie for Rebecca Ferguson after she did Mission Impossible: Rouge Nation. She killed in that movie.

TV: Alias. And La Femme Nikita, and Nikita They're not quite matches...

Agent Carter (this might be the best match, though translated to episodic TV)

Alias and Nikita are pretty straight examples, though both are a little grimer. Jennifer Garner little over sold it to be bond.

Homeland (not watched it, but it's probably too realistic for a James Bond fit)

The Americans (also not watched it, spy for the other side. Oddly, based on a TRUE modern story, even though the show is set in the past) But I suspect this also isn't James Bond.

Americans is a spy yes-but a very realistic one. its more about "Will they get Caught, going to the grocery store then will they jump this car while a slide whistle plays.

Homeland i heard got away from it in third season but its more like a cop show

And Hunted. (I think you recommend this to me, I remembered it as I checked my Amazon and netflix queues looking for things).

Thats an okay Good example. I think as i recomended when its going-its a buetiful show. But its not quite a fun show as a times it almost has an experimental film vibe when at its best.

Movies:

Long Kiss Goodnight? Not quite a spy movie. And it's been too long since I watched it.

Haywire doesn't quite fit either (I think too much focus on the fighting).

Long Kiss Goodnight? it has elements of it-but its also a little more serious then i think of as a bond movie. the Second act is kind of goofy fun, but it doesn't quite hit

Haywire i think that was the idea-but yeah it feels more an excuse for cool fight scenes, that for me at least never quite get to fun.

She's sandwiched in a Super-hero movie, but Black Widow is essentially James Bond. Cool under pressure, gadgets, etc. James Bond wishes he were as cool as she was in the Avengers chair scene.

Black Widdow seems very aware that she is female action character in a james bond film. When done well Weddon and others have fun writing her aware of the cliches of a female action character in a james bond film-but she is still a female action character in a james bond film.... just with no bond(well captian america oriron man or whoever)


Which goes to i think a point that Woodclaw made , and something i have said before-most of these characters feel like they are trying to do Ridley from Aliens. Except Ridley is by herself not a fun character. She is just grim and serious(at least as how they remake her-Sigourney Weaver actually does a good job of building the character that Haywire misses). And thats not really james bond-its to serious by half. Even its more serious the Craig sometimes. You want someone who doesn't project rage 100% of the time. But i disagree with Woodlcaw-i know in the script it says "Anyone anygender" but there is some that is very Feminie and Female to Weaver, as especially in aliens she acts that if any sees me weak or girly for one second i am dead. And you can say she is just during Arnold swatzenager...but it does feel diffrent.

I Hope as we go forward with action movies-spies, ubergirls what ever- would like to see a movie where yes, the female lead can have a little fun, maybe with a man or two, can go on adventures and maybe looks like she cares about how she looks, save the day and be the actual main character. We do see this sometimes(not in spy movies) but it is rare.



Damn. It does seem like I should be able to find a DIRECT female comparison.

I do wish they'd make a movie for Rebecca Ferguson after she did Mission Impossible: Rouge Nation. She killed in that movie.[/quote]

I think one of the problems when looking for a "female James Bond" example, in fact any example of James Bond outside of white male, is you first need to actually define what a James Bond film is.

I would argue it is easy to classify it as a spy film, but I don't truly believe it fits wholly in that genre. It is almost unique unto itself.

Both of you have mentioned great examples of close approximations, but I guess there in lies the answer. Maybe James Bond couldn't be done as a female.

Salt was an example I thought of too when originally thinking about this. The role of Salt was originally written as male, with the wife being killed instead. But again, it feels more straight-up spy/espionage thriller, regardless of the gender of Salt. I would argue that even Craig's Bond has shifted quite away from what the character was originally like.

It is a tough one. Could you write a character like a female Bond, without the emphasis on the fact that she IS female being the defining characteristic?

Peace.

/K

I want to go back to Woodclaw's comments on Ripley for a moment. We were talking a about the distinction between roles written for females versus roles where the hero happened to be a woman, and Ripley is a great place to consider the differences.

Ripley does NOT trade on the fact that she's female, and her gender is irrelevant to how she solves problems. The Alien(s) movies are making the statement that heroes are heroes and gender isn't important. I get that.

But from another perspective, it did matter. She is a strong female in a way that Sigourney Weaver is uniquely capable of portraying, and that was important to me because we don't see that a lot in movies. A woman just being competent and not needing men or any of the trappings of traditional male/female relationships. That felt like a breakthrough.

That said, however, it was vitally important to me that she WAS female (and an attractive one, IMHO). Even as the movie made the point on the surface that she could have been male and it wouldn't have changed anything.

SALT is another interesting case. It was written for Tom Cruise, but when they recast it with Angelina Jolie, they didn't change much of anything. On the surface, that would make her another Ripley. The idea that a hero is a hero and gender doesn't have to play a part.

But... the physicality of the role as written made no sense for someone as small-boned and thin as Angelina. Not unless she had some super-powers. She soaked up being smashed around by large, powerful men without serious injury, and she did stunts that required far more strength than a woman of her built could possibly possess. In that way, it was silly unless you injected some element of genetic enhancement or whatever into the story to explain her toughness and strength. Which the movie explicitly did NOT do. So it wasn't believable. Women and men do fight differently and have different tolerances for absorbing extreme physical punishment.

That's not to say there aren't exceptionally strong women who can duke it out with men. There are, but Angelina isn't one of them. Some actresses involved in martial arts fighting, wrestling, and increasingly military roles could have been believable in the role. Rhonda Roussey could probably kick any of our asses.

Another example is Adrianne Paclicki (playing Bobbi Morse in SHIELD). She was convincing. She is fit enough and tall enough and trained well enough to supposedly take on a man (on screen) and beat him on his own terms. She passes the gut test. But Angelina... never.

Melissa as Supergirl is another example. She's not waifish and she looks as if she could soak up a punch, Kryptonian powers notwithstanding. She's got some meat on her bones. Gal Gadot, as we've discussed endlessly, not so much. Or Jennifer Lawrence for that matter.

Over time, producers and directors have to cast female action characters more believably. This will get easier as more female action stars emerge who can pull it off.

Shane black did an AMA today on Reddit. He talked about Marvel twice. Since it came directly from him, I thought it might be relevant here (remember the quotes come from him, and he's biased):

www.reddit.com/r/movies/comments/4k3hi6/...ive_made_films_like/?

"Marvel was an education and a half. I remember I was a bit headspun, early on, trying to find out how exactly I fit in, when Joss Whedon approached me. Sensing my distress, he said, "You don't have to keep ahold of every moving part. Trust the machine." And so I took the cotton out of my ears, put it in my mouth, and proceeded to LEARN from the most efficient, well-oiled superhero delivery system in history. Everyone should be so lucky."

"I love the Marvel folk. They're making the best superhero movies around, largely because they're not elaboately calculated products; they're labors of love for these guys. They grew up on the shit."

Off topic, but sorta related matter, he's got a new movie out The Nice Guys with Ryan Gosling and Russell Crowe. I just got back from seeing it (why I read the AMA). It's very much in the same vein as Kiss Kiss Bang Bang (though I think KKBB is better). It's a witty fun movie with a lot of great character bits, great dialog, and some attention to backgrounds. Gosling and Crowe actually have some comedic timing and do a great job. I liked that there were little character bits that they let drop, some they explained and a few they just left. You notice "hey X always does Y" but they don't explain all of them -- making the characters feel more fleshed out. Ryan Gosling can scream like a little girl.

Sadly, no über girl action. We do get Tally played by Yaya DaCosta, and she's probably a role some here will enjoy. Sadly not enough of her in the movie, but I liked it when she was on screen. She could pull off Misty Knight -- she had that blacksploitation 70's vibe going for this part that Misty Knight channels. (That's if we get Misty Knight in Iron Fist, which I hope we do.)

www.imdb.com/media/rm2195132416/nm186162...f_=nmmi_mi_all_sf_23

So, if you'd like to see a non-ubergirl/non-geek film, and witty buddy private detective movies look fun to you, take a look at the trailer. If it seems stupid, then probably not for you. If you think it's funny, the movie is even more of that and you'll have a good time. (Not everything is in the trailer, or at least I didn't feel like I was just watching the trailer)

Thus ends my off topic info (I figure a movie like this can easily get lost, and we WERE just talking about it's writer/director).

Oh, to make it more on-topic, he mention his next films: Doc Savage staring Dwayne The Rock Johnson and a remake of Predator.