SuperWomenMania.com - Internet's Home of the Uberbabe
Amount
  1. Forum
  3. SuperWomenMania.com
  5. Library
  7. Dru's Return!!

Dru's Return!!

10 May 2013 14:09 #31439 by Jabbrwock
Replied by Jabbrwock on topic Dru's Return!!

Lastleaf wrote: I'll be honest, I deliberately sounded harsh in tone because I know had I gone about meekly or started with IMHO, whatever I write would be passed by. I willingly poked a bee's nest and I knew there would be those who would be offended. I knew there would be those who lash at me too and practically expected the kind of reactions like stoneyman's. Just so you know I also put my neck out there. Hope you don't take it personally Dru. Heck I even expected to be banned to this forum. To those who ask that "I do better" or "don't read it" I'm telling you, you are not helping anyone. At worse you are helping with the continued stagnation of this genre.

I'll echo what Dru said, most of the points I wanted to make has been covered too by a number of people.

Except for expectations. While I'm far from expecting an award winning story and I'm very much aware most of this stories were written for our own self-indulgence (I posit 90% are). I atleast am looking a proper one. To be clear Dru's story, and not just his but a quite a number of stories here, I found lacking in conflict. Stories thrive in conflict, without challenges, without struggle, without dilemma a story stagnates and dies. Without that there is nothing that drives the story forward and nothing readers to look forward to. Transformatrix, Camille Jones', the handful of super blogs, they all suffered from this, they lost direction. Just keeping on raising power levels just doesn't keep it interesting.

I knew this would happen. A while back we had a thread asking why there aren't that much feedback with the stories, in there we talked about this kind of thing with negative criticisms happening. I wanted to keep silent but frankly that wouldn't have helped anything, talk and you risk hurting and losing a writer. Let me ask, what should I done.


All sounding harsh does is make you sound like a jerk. A lot of these stories are designed around lack of real conflict, regardless of what the weaker characters in them may think - they are specifically wish fulfillment fantasies whose plot is just window dressing. They exist to provide a context for an unstoppable ubergirl to crush, with varying degrees of ease, all opposition, because that is a fantasy shared by many readers in this genre.

If you don't like such stories, you are not part of the intended audience. Even within a relatively small genre like ours, there is lots of variety. When you read a story and don't like it, it is important to look at it and ask yourself "Are the things I don't like about this story errors by the author, or are they intentional stylistic and thematic elements that I just don't like?" If you conclude that it's the latter case - and a cursory scan of Dru's other works would show that it is - then you should just shrug and walk away from the story. Your feedback is valueless. In fact, it is actively destructive, because it can only serve to drive away an author who is enjoying writing stories in a segment of this genre and remove potential inspiration from the readers who enjoy his work. Just because somebody enjoys Dru's stories doesn't mean they might not be inspired by them to write something a bit more to your taste.

Dru's stories are what they are. Complaining that the supergirl is too powerful is complaining that you just plain don't like Dru's stories at all - in which case, don't read them. I don't write letters to every author on the mystery and horror shelves at Barnes and Noble telling them they should write stories with more lasers and space ships - I just go read science fiction. When there is cross-over, and these days there is a lot, I avoid those books. Sometimes there's nothing on the shelves that interests me, but that's just life. Even at book stores, where I am a *PAYING* customer, I don't imagine that I have some natural right to demand that only stories that appeal to me be written.

I won't tell you to shut up and not offer feedback. I will merely ask you to think about whether your feedback can possibly be constructive. All Dru is going to learn by reading attacks on the intentional core elements of his stories is that he shouldn't be writing those stories at all. That doesn't help anybody. Some stories are not for you, and as a hopefully responsible commenter, you need to learn the difference between "I don't like it," and "It sucks!"
The following user(s) said Thank You: lfan, fats, SCOTT R, Revan
The topic has been locked.
More
10 May 2013 14:18 #31440 by Lastleaf
Replied by Lastleaf on topic Dru's Return!!
No it is not an excuse nor am I making one. Esteban got it, pansardum got it. My post was blunt, honest but it was direct to the point that I don't think I can explain it any simpler. There was no longer any struggle, its gone. It has just become numbers, who will care if Sirren or Eilara absorbs one or a million more. There is practically no difference.
The topic has been locked.
More
10 May 2013 14:31 #31441 by Lastleaf
Replied by Lastleaf on topic Dru's Return!!
Dru's stories are what they are. And I'm not going to deny that practically a lot of stories here are on the same vein. I will point out what I think what is wrong with it, though. Everything I said is valid critic. He might not like what I said, its fine.
The topic has been locked.
More
10 May 2013 14:40 #31442 by lfan
Replied by lfan on topic Dru's Return!!

Jabbrwock wrote:

Lastleaf wrote: I'll be honest, I deliberately sounded harsh in tone because I know had I gone about meekly or started with IMHO, whatever I write would be passed by. I willingly poked a bee's nest and I knew there would be those who would be offended. I knew there would be those who lash at me too and practically expected the kind of reactions like stoneyman's. Just so you know I also put my neck out there. Hope you don't take it personally Dru. Heck I even expected to be banned to this forum. To those who ask that "I do better" or "don't read it" I'm telling you, you are not helping anyone. At worse you are helping with the continued stagnation of this genre.

I'll echo what Dru said, most of the points I wanted to make has been covered too by a number of people.

Except for expectations. While I'm far from expecting an award winning story and I'm very much aware most of this stories were written for our own self-indulgence (I posit 90% are). I atleast am looking a proper one. To be clear Dru's story, and not just his but a quite a number of stories here, I found lacking in conflict. Stories thrive in conflict, without challenges, without struggle, without dilemma a story stagnates and dies. Without that there is nothing that drives the story forward and nothing readers to look forward to. Transformatrix, Camille Jones', the handful of super blogs, they all suffered from this, they lost direction. Just keeping on raising power levels just doesn't keep it interesting.

I knew this would happen. A while back we had a thread asking why there aren't that much feedback with the stories, in there we talked about this kind of thing with negative criticisms happening. I wanted to keep silent but frankly that wouldn't have helped anything, talk and you risk hurting and losing a writer. Let me ask, what should I done.


All sounding harsh does is make you sound like a jerk. A lot of these stories are designed around lack of real conflict, regardless of what the weaker characters in them may think - they are specifically wish fulfillment fantasies whose plot is just window dressing. They exist to provide a context for an unstoppable ubergirl to crush, with varying degrees of ease, all opposition, because that is a fantasy shared by many readers in this genre.

If you don't like such stories, you are not part of the intended audience. Even within a relatively small genre like ours, there is lots of variety. When you read a story and don't like it, it is important to look at it and ask yourself "Are the things I don't like about this story errors by the author, or are they intentional stylistic and thematic elements that I just don't like?" If you conclude that it's the latter case - and a cursory scan of Dru's other works would show that it is - then you should just shrug and walk away from the story. Your feedback is valueless. In fact, it is actively destructive, because it can only serve to drive away an author who is enjoying writing stories in a segment of this genre and remove potential inspiration from the readers who enjoy his work. Just because somebody enjoys Dru's stories doesn't mean they might not be inspired by them to write something a bit more to your taste.

Dru's stories are what they are. Complaining that the supergirl is too powerful is complaining that you just plain don't like Dru's stories at all - in which case, don't read them. I don't write letters to every author on the mystery and horror shelves at Barnes and Noble telling them they should write stories with more lasers and space ships - I just go read science fiction. When there is cross-over, and these days there is a lot, I avoid those books. Sometimes there's nothing on the shelves that interests me, but that's just life. Even at book stores, where I am a *PAYING* customer, I don't imagine that I have some natural right to demand that only stories that appeal to me be written.

I won't tell you to shut up and not offer feedback. I will merely ask you to think about whether your feedback can possibly be constructive. All Dru is going to learn by reading attacks on the intentional core elements of his stories is that he shouldn't be writing those stories at all. That doesn't help anybody. Some stories are not for you, and as a hopefully responsible commenter, you need to learn the difference between "I don't like it," and "It sucks!"


^^this
The following user(s) said Thank You: Jabbrwock
The topic has been locked.
More
10 May 2013 15:09 #31443 by Dru1076
Replied by Dru1076 on topic Dru's Return!!
Of course I didn't like what u said lastleaf. Mainly because this thread is supposed to be my coming home party, and you sorta took a dump on the rug. I have taken your words onboard. You have made your point. Why don't u start a thread called 'I just don't like it' and continue your rant there.

It's Eilera by the way.

I thank each and everyone of my critics for their overall interesting input, I could not ask for a more rewarding response to what is, afterall, just a work of 'beer and pizza' fiction. That's a Robert Rodriquez reference by the way.



That said...let's put on some good music and relax guys. I don't want this party to end up in an all in brawl. Anyone need a drink...my shout?

Dru
The following user(s) said Thank You: fats, SCOTT R
The topic has been locked.
More
10 May 2013 16:36 #31447 by lfan
Replied by lfan on topic Dru's Return!!

Dru1076 wrote: Anyone need a drink...my shout?

Dru


I'm buying
The following user(s) said Thank You: Dru1076
The topic has been locked.
More
10 May 2013 18:01 #31448 by Dru1076
Replied by Dru1076 on topic Dru's Return!!
Cheers Elf, but at least let me get Jabber's.

I'm surprised nobodies picked on my kill-count yet. I thought that was the most concerning thing about An Arion Ascends. But I assure everyone, no kittens were really in the barrels.

I have promised to isolate my Arion monsters, and so I shall. After that, I'm going to leave the Best multiverse as I found it...and never return there. Despite the dark nature of my story, I actually have the utmost respect for the Aurora Universe and Shadar. Though I'd been dreaming of tales like 'Emma' for a long time before that mosquito flew away hungry from Aurora's flesh, finding the Aurora Universe proved to me I was not alone. Without Shadar...no AK. No AK...probably no Conceptfan.

Thank you Shadar. Thank you AK. And Thank you Conceptfan.

And thank You, Fats. Great decor.

One of the main reasons I haven't written anything in so long is I didn't have to. Deep Down Inside, Michelle's Meteor Memento, and going back further, More than Mortal, Infinity Crisis...I could never write stuff like that. There are so many great authors doing great work in the genre and a round of appause for all of them. It was Anon's reseeding project that gave me a nudge. Cheers, mate.

Okay, I've had too much to drink....

I promise my next story will destroy multiverses entirely of own invention. I am not, I should point out, a member of the AUWG. And I think I hear some sagely nods out there...

I'm afraid I can't promise to deliver the high-end stuff some readers clearly hunger for, but I hope you all like my next tale.

Cheers...
The following user(s) said Thank You: Jabbrwock, kshoo, SCOTT R
The topic has been locked.
More
10 May 2013 18:53 #31451 by Woodclaw
Replied by Woodclaw on topic Dru's Return!!

Dru1076 wrote: Cheers Elf, but at least let me get Jabber's.

I'm surprised nobodies picked on my kill-count yet. I thought that was the most concerning thing about An Arion Ascends. But I assure everyone, no kittens were really in the barrels.

I have promised to isolate my Arion monsters, and so I shall. After that, I'm going to leave the Best multiverse as I found it...and never return there. Despite the dark nature of my story, I actually have the utmost respect for the Aurora Universe and Shadar. Though I'd been dreaming of tales like 'Emma' for a long time before that mosquito flew away hungry from Aurora's flesh, finding the Aurora Universe proved to me I was not alone. Without Shadar...no AK. No AK...probably no Conceptfan.

Thank you Shadar. Thank you AK. And Thank you Conceptfan.

And thank You, Fats. Great decor.

One of the main reasons I haven't written anything in so long is I didn't have to. Deep Down Inside, Michelle's Meteor Memento, and going back further, More than Mortal, Infinity Crisis...I could never write stuff like that. There are so many great authors doing great work in the genre and a round of appause for all of them. It was Anon's reseeding project that gave me a nudge. Cheers, mate.

Okay, I've had too much to drink....

I promise my next story will destroy multiverses entirely of own invention. I am not, I should point out, a member of the AUWG. And I think I hear some sagely nods out there...

I'm afraid I can't promise to deliver the high-end stuff some readers clearly hunger for, but I hope you all like my next tale.

Cheers...


Dru, I honestly think that you're too harsh on yourself.
Granted there are stories out there that are better than your, but there are also a lot that are worse. I know one fanfic writer too many that think too high of himself, just because he's writing and other people are not. Youhave the honesty to recognize your limits and the fact that your work might not be as good as someone's else, which is a major plus as a person in my opinion.

These are your stories, which means that they have to be something you're satisfied with in the first place. Granted criticism are important and listening to them is what help an author to perfect his/hers craft, but I think that there's no point in writing something that you don't like. None of us is here because he's payed or anything, what we write we do because we like or because we need to get it out of our system.

Personally I'm very ashamed of comparing some of my stuff to other stories on this site, but that's part of the game. My stuff is there and if some someone wants to tear me a me one for writing it, you're welcome to try, but I want to hear all the hows and whys.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Dru1076
The topic has been locked.
More
10 May 2013 21:13 #31453 by d_k_c
Replied by d_k_c on topic Dru's Return!!
I don’t mean to play devil’s advocate – But once again I think this forum became overly harsh because someone expressed his opinion. And if a negative comment can garner this kind of response…Then consider it a form of flattery.

If AK and Concept had this kind of reaction to a posted story….I’m willing to bet they’d still be around. I went to sleep yesterday and awoke to a novel of feed-back that I haven’t yet fully read.
At the end of the day I didn’t mind the story. I agreed with the “Kittens in barrels” comment.
And here’s the thing….If this was your first, second or third story Dru, Last Leaf would never have made those comments.

Here’s why I believe he made them. Your story has gained more attention and praise than any other story I can recall. This was Lastleaf asking the forum if he’s the only one who doesn’t like this kind of story. Which.. I think, is a fair comment.

IMO there are those authors that do need to be treated with baby gloves, rookie writers-overly sensitive writers. But Dru is a vet….regardless of how long he’s been gone. He has set his own Bar….Much like Shadar AK Marknew Lfan Concept. Any story that’s below that bar is going to be judged more harshly….And rightfully so.

My only critique of LastLeafs comment is that this forum was labelled DRU’s return not DRU’s newest story. With that being said, DRU you have written the greatest stories I have ever read…Is Mob girl posted in the bank? Why not!? Absolute classic along with many other stories. Without your stories, I can’t say for certain that Infinity Girl would exist or for that matter any of my stories. Thanks for all your work. And keep bringing them…..Regardless of what jerks like Last leaf and myself think ;)
The topic has been locked.
More
10 May 2013 21:38 #31454 by Woodclaw
Replied by Woodclaw on topic Dru's Return!!

d_k_c wrote: Is Mob girl posted in the bank? Why not!? Absolute classic along with many other stories.


I resent this comment, take a look here .
The topic has been locked.
More
10 May 2013 21:51 #31455 by d_k_c
Replied by d_k_c on topic Dru's Return!!
Ooooo! Tanks! :woohoo:
The topic has been locked.
More
11 May 2013 01:00 #31461 by njae
Replied by njae on topic Dru's Return!!

Skye wrote: If you want suspense, get some random one-shot book without any knowledge about it. Or some epic long saga like LOTR, Game of Thrones or if you're more into that, the In Death novels.

With something as short as most of the fiction around here, "suspense" is just windowdressing. Most of the time the "heroine" (or villainess) wins, and sometimes you just wonder what just happened.


I like posts like this. They make me want to reschedule my free time so that I don't waste it with useless stuff like trying to write stories that do build suspense.

Dru1076 wrote: Secondly, while constructive critism is helpful...and most welcome in all its forms, but here's tip. A little less rod, and more carrot goes a long way. Otherwise the mule is only going to learn that you don't like him.


I hope the rod/carrot analogy was about the tone/choice of words in Lastleafs post and not just the amount of positive vs. negative feedback. Because as d_k_c said, your story got a lot more attention than the stories around them. And I agree with him about that being the reason why Lastleaf criticized you more harshly than he should have. This is a bit unfair since it's wasn't your fault, but it simply shows what's wrong here: An old author returns and he gets showered with so much attention that the comment ticker is full of feedback for his story while the parallel running seven workshop stories don't receive a single comment! In other words there are people who are willing to give feedback, just not for any story that's written.
The topic has been locked.
More
11 May 2013 01:33 #31462 by jnw550
Replied by jnw550 on topic Dru's Return!!
Just so I'm clear... I have no qualms with someone giving negative feedback. Hell, I'm military, I live off it! However, the English language is comprehensive enough, I think, that the tone of that feedback should be a little less scathing and bit more helpful.

If you didn't like it because of the amount of comments it recieved versus others...well that's just weird.
The topic has been locked.
More
11 May 2013 01:52 #31463 by d_k_c
Replied by d_k_c on topic Dru's Return!!
Here's my example. And here I go changing the subject. The newest Bond movie....Worst Movie Ever! By far the most awful Bond movie ever created. I kept my mouth shut about it, never really needed to express that opinion to anyone else. Then on Yahoo news I read this praise for the movie. Then I read all the comments that basicaly said how great this movie was. Where I normally would never have written a review of a movie....I felt that my lone opinion must be expressed. Step by step I lambasted this movie. Call me weird, but sometimes going against the masses needs to be done.

Being hurt...or sad because of one negative comment..well i think thats kinda weird.
The topic has been locked.
More
11 May 2013 02:11 #31464 by inactive
Replied by inactive on topic Dru's Return!!
In a funny way, you're all wrong.

:P
- GeekSeven
The following user(s) said Thank You: lfan
The topic has been locked.
More
11 May 2013 02:21 #31465 by lfan
Replied by lfan on topic Dru's Return!!
Welcome back, Dru!
The topic has been locked.
More
11 May 2013 02:28 #31466 by jnw550
Replied by jnw550 on topic Dru's Return!!

d_k_c wrote: Here's my example. And here I go changing the subject. The newest Bond movie....Worst Movie Ever! By far the most awful Bond movie ever created. I kept my mouth shut about it, never really needed to express that opinion to anyone else. Then on Yahoo news I read this praise for the movie. Then I read all the comments that basicaly said how great this movie was. Where I normally would never have written a review of a movie....I felt that my lone opinion must be expressed. Step by step I lambasted this movie. Call me weird, but sometimes going against the masses needs to be done.

Being hurt...or sad because of one negative comment..well i think thats kinda weird.


Wait...you're comparing your scathing review of a movie, of which likely none of the creators or actors involved will likely ever read, much less care about as they bask in their wealth from the millions or more it brought in, to posting a scathing "review", if that's what it was, toward someone's story who will very likely read it, and may or may not take it to heart in a negative way?

The fact that it doesn't even register with some you that your comment may come across hurtful is annoyingly weird. Yeah, so is going against the masses "just because". (I've never understood that.)

Let's not forget that Hollywood is profiting from their art. When I spend good money on a movie I think sucks it pisses me off too. Like "The Hobbit". I want my $7.50 back Petey!

I really don't get it. Just choose your words more carefully. Take a moment and put yourself in his place. It's really that simple. I don't think anyone is asking you to coddle and hug and tickle the guy's balls, just don't be an asshole about it.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Dru1076
The topic has been locked.
More
11 May 2013 02:49 #31467 by Dru1076
Replied by Dru1076 on topic Dru's Return!!
I thought I did an excellent job changing the subject. I think we're going backward fellas.

As I said before, all feedback is welcome. What more could I ask for? If the tone of this thread is overly critical of critics, then that tone was set by Lastleaf kicking a hornets nest. He voiced his opinion honestly, which one should always do. I voiced mine with equal honesty.

I agreed with and understood almost all the comments made about my stories. I think everyone (yes, even lastleaf) had a fair point to make. Cool. I'm not going to ever be able give most of you what you seem to want. Do what I did, write your own and show the world how you think it should be done.

I guess the most important thing to take away from the thread is this. We here to have fun people. At the end of the day this is entertainment. Let's not take it too seriously.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Grayface, Woodclaw, Lastleaf, Ravens_ghost, SCOTT R, pansardum
The topic has been locked.
More
11 May 2013 03:24 #31469 by lfan
Replied by lfan on topic Dru's Return!!
The thing I just cannot get over and what I'm shaking my head from this thread is that somehow Skyfall is the worst movie that DKC has EVER seen....I get that you didn't like it, but worst movie EVER?!?!

ElF
The topic has been locked.
More
11 May 2013 03:27 #31470 by lfan
Replied by lfan on topic Dru's Return!!

geekseven wrote: In a funny way, you're all wrong.

:P


I think you meant to say "you're all right" ;)
The topic has been locked.
More
11 May 2013 03:37 #31471 by d_k_c
Replied by d_k_c on topic Dru's Return!!
LMAO....Ok...Maybe not the worst movie ever. Ok....Maybe not the worst movie ever, By a long shot. But it was still a bad movie. Thanks LFAN now I have to go issue an apology to 50 000 Yahoo movie review Users :P
The topic has been locked.
More
11 May 2013 04:47 #31474 by pansardum
Replied by pansardum on topic Dru's Return!!

jnw550 wrote: You used the word "complain". There is difference between a comment and a complaint. Everyone is entitled to comment, it is a public forum after all; however, that shouldn't give anyone free license to beat someone up just because they don't like their offering. For people that want to grouse and moan about someone's offering should be challenged to do better, yes.

When someone writes they're are putting themselves out there and I don't think its too much to ask to be responsible and mature enough to be civil, and if you want to comment, offer something useful.


I used complain because there is no "Do it better yourself!"-mentality about positive comments. No one here is (so far) beating someone up, the first comments were a bit harsh but it has since been blown out of proportion. Now every other post isn't about the story, but if it is OK or not to think there should be more than only supers doing their thing and getting more powerful. (and Bond movies, which infact was pretty bad :side: )

Me and Lastleaf has put ourself out there and offered our thoughts about the story. I have yet too see anything other than grouse and moan about those from you... See what I'm getting at?

lfan wrote: Welcome back, Dru!

Got a strange Déjà vu from this :p

Where are those drinks mentioned earlier? :pinch:
The topic has been locked.
More
11 May 2013 05:20 #31476 by inactive
Replied by inactive on topic Dru's Return!!
No eBay APP ID and/or Cert ID defined in Kunena configurationI'll take a gin and tonic, thank you very much.

But serve it in this, if you don't mind.

- GeekSeven
The following user(s) said Thank You: Dru1076
The topic has been locked.
More
11 May 2013 05:43 #31477 by jnw550
Replied by jnw550 on topic Dru's Return!!

pansardum wrote:

jnw550 wrote: You used the word "complain". There is difference between a comment and a complaint. Everyone is entitled to comment, it is a public forum after all; however, that shouldn't give anyone free license to beat someone up just because they don't like their offering. For people that want to grouse and moan about someone's offering should be challenged to do better, yes.

When someone writes they're are putting themselves out there and I don't think its too much to ask to be responsible and mature enough to be civil, and if you want to comment, offer something useful.


I used complain because there is no "Do it better yourself!"-mentality about positive comments. No one here is (so far) beating someone up, the first comments were a bit harsh but it has since been blown out of proportion. Now every other post isn't about the story, but if it is OK or not to think there should be more than only supers doing their thing and getting more powerful. (and Bond movies, which infact was pretty bad :side: )

Me and Lastleaf has put ourself out there and offered our thoughts about the story. I have yet too see anything other than grouse and moan about those from you... See what I'm getting at?

lfan wrote: Welcome back, Dru!

Got a strange Déjà vu from this :p

Where are those drinks mentioned earlier? :pinch:


Maybe I got a bit carried away. I can admit that. Just didn't like the half-hearted admission of bad behavior followed by justifications of the same. That means you're missing the point. I wasn't the only one who shared the sentimment if you noticed. I just want a precedent to be set that its okay to behave that way toward people.

I would have done the same for you, Lastleaf, Esteban, or anyone else, without hesitation. ;)
The topic has been locked.
More
11 May 2013 08:52 #31484 by njae
Replied by njae on topic Dru's Return!!

jnw550 wrote: Just so I'm clear... I have no qualms with someone giving negative feedback. Hell, I'm military, I live off it! However, the English language is comprehensive enough, I think, that the tone of that feedback should be a little less scathing and bit more helpful.

If you didn't like it because of the amount of comments it recieved versus others...well that's just weird.


Your earlier post sounded quite different:

jnw550 wrote: ...
If you came here looking for the latest best-seller, NOT that no one here is capable of that, then I think you are looking the wrong place.
...
The simple fact that Dru is putting forth the effort should be sufficient enough at least warrant the respect of "no comment" if you don't like it.


And by that logic no feedback would mean negative feedback, which is the most disencouraging kind of feedback. And I think d_k_c's Bond comparison was quite fitting. And with an audience as small as ours it's even worse to hype one story and totally ignore anything else. Because this behaviour implies that this is what everybody wants to read here. Again, this is not Dru's fault and I doubt Lastleaf didn't like the story because of the hype, it's just that his criticism (where he did mention what he didn't like after all) became harsher because of it. This doesn't make it ok, but still better than keeping his mouth shut.
The topic has been locked.
More
  1. Forum
  3. SuperWomenMania.com
  5. Library
  7. Dru's Return!!
Time to create page: 0.119 seconds