The LaPorte Caves - Revised

I guess what I'd like to see is some acknowledgement from Julia that she has seriously undone the expectations she set with Howard, and broken promises to him. From Chapter 5:

"But it's not going to be like that with us, Howard. I’ll remain exclusive to you, just like we were on earth. We'll be equal partners,
just like we were on Earth. But you need to consent. Deciding whether or not to
accept a Claim is one of the few rights you have here: I can’t just make the
decision on my own."

She's made it clear to him now that they are not equal partners, and that she will not remain exclusive to him. Two expectations set and denied. Two promises made and broken. I think he at least deserves to hear her admit that she has gone back on her word, and has given him good reason not to trust her and good reason to question her integrity.

circes_cup wrote: Thanks evveryone for all the enthusiastic discussion of the story.  I don’t think I’ve ever seen 70+ comments on a single chapter!  Things start looking up for Howard, so I hope those of you that are discouraged on his behalf hang in there.

There will be no updates to LPC this weekend.  If everything goes well, the next posting will occur the weekend of April 18-19, and that will a 17,000-word cluster of three chaters.  

After that, we will have a haitus of at least a few weeks as I work out the subsequent material.  The interconnections between the chapters require me to edit chapters in groups rather than one at time: the group the follows the April-18-19 posting is a pretty large editing job that will take a few weeks.

If you want to help with the process, shoot me a note tellng me which aspect or scene of the story resonaates best with you so far.  That might help me understand which elements of the story are most valuable and deserve to be better drawn out.

Thanks again, all!

Thanks for the update!

I think the one thing I would make sure gets addressed soon is Julia's lack of realization of what her abilities really mean in the context of relationships on Earth and not in the Weald. There have been times when the story makes it seem like she acknowledges how men are treated second class in every aspect of life, and not just because women have "natural" superiority. For example, in chapter 11, she knows the car that Howard runs to barely works, because it was "made for men." Why would a better made car be a bad thing? Why would women see it as unnecessary to provide the safest mode of transportation possible for their Claimed to do the "menial" tasks like grocery shopping? Women are already thousands of times more powerful than any car they could create, so there shouldn't be any reason why it would be so poorly made, unless women really just don't care about helping protect the men. It's not even like a man could design a better car for himself; it's already been stated that women hold all executive positions, as well as own all patents and earn all the money. It's not even in the women's best interests to NOT have a better designed car; if it was more efficient, the men could spend more time serving his woman instead of fighting a crappy engine. It wasn't the focus of the chapter for Julia to ponder these issues, obviously, but she has made similar observations before, like how the male section of the gym is not designed for their optimal training. There is no threat to female superiority if there were better male facilities; it would just make it more fulfilling for them to be able to have the opportunity to get in shape, maybe to attract a female and join a harem. Again, it would ironically be in the women's best interests to provide these things, without having to resort to schemes of fake mind control gas to weed out "malcontents," the irony being in using that word especially, since that implies that she knows they aren't happy with their lives, but she doesn't take the next logical thought into WHY they're discontent, she just accepts the party line of "they want their abilities to matter." To not even think twice about that one statement Ruth made is just mind boggling. I think the longer you go without her becoming a little less naive, the more it strains the suspension of disbelief. Now, you may have already thought of this, and maybe it's because Julia has been so blue balled for the last week (?), that she just hasn't thought about these things more than just observing them.

To go back to the car example, it could also tie into Mindy's backstory, which I think is probably one of the most interesting ideas you've started to explore. She has the potential to be a much more nuanced character; a girl (she's literally only a teen), who lost her father when she was young because of the complacency women take in providing for their men, which leads to her misguided feelings of anger at them simply because they aren't invulnerable like she is, and if they were, her daddy would still be there. I think shifting the focus away from her being the antagonist of the story into a more sympathetic ally for Howard, would be very interesting. The Weald society itself is enough of an antagonist; exploring how Julia and Howard could bring balance to the sexes, but this would have to be done TOGETHER, not just as a "Julia has all the answers" deus ex machina plot device. A new antagonist could be introduced, like some kind of hard line feminist that has a lot of authority, and is part of the reason men, and subsequently, the entire Weald, have stagnated in terms of their scientific advancements, and just continue the "banalities of suburban life." Mindy could become an asset to help change things, because deep down she knows that the men are not a willing subclass, that they have literally been bred to be subservient and are therefore not worth the extra effort to protect, and the loss of her father has hammered that home.

One other thing I want to mention is how you've incorporated Amanda into the story. Even though she has been a somewhat minor character up to know, she's been there for the major pivotal points in Julia and Howard's relationship; she seduced Howard when they first arrived, she rescued him from the drug gang, and she exposed the truth of what Howard was doing to Julia. I like how you wrote that she appears somewhat bashful and shy when she asked Julia to not be too mad at him; it hints that she's crushing on him pretty hard for a Weald woman. I would caution though, against having Howard sleep with her out of some kind of revenge against Julia. Not that he would have any say in it, obviously, but I think if you have him rub it in Julia's face that he slept with her again, he loses some of the moral high ground. So far, even though he isn't perfect (aka resorting to the drug deal), you've done a great job of portraying him as an average guy reacting to a world of Amazons that rule unquestioningly, and how he deals with their corrupting influence on his girlfriend. Everything he's done has been pretty reasonable, with the exception of him not telling Julia about Mindy's harassment. Given how they've interacted since arriving, it's likely that she wouldn't believe him anyway, but it's really the only other thing I can think of that he's done that is a bit ridiculous.

The only other thing I hope you incorporate is somehow leveling the playing field. I think a deeper plot of the Weald being out of balance because of the overconsumption of the Diana fruit, and how the Amazons will have to deal with being more "normal" compared to the men, could offer a lot of opportunity for narratives that still explore the power differential between the men and women. This ties into my thoughts of Mindy's character, and possibly even Ruth, if she realizes how the loss of Mindy's father has affected her.

I'll offer one last thought, since you asked what resonated. The indifference of Julia to Howard's needs, to the staggering difference in their abilities, to telling him just to get over it and that this is for his own good; these type of scenes are going to trigger people very emotionally, because everyone has felt that indifference before. You've done a great job writing it so it infuriates readers sometimes, myself included, because of all the obvious twisting of facts, ignoring comments, or gaslighting Julia does to validate her reasoning for staying. There is still plenty of opportunity to continue that indefinitely, but I would love to see how you write how they overcome that, without Howard becoming a servant to Julia. We're a long way off from a conclusion (I assume), so I don't expect it to wrap up in the next couple of chapters, I'm just commenting that you're doing a good job tweaking at the frustrations everyone feels when they're being dismissed, and the desire we all have for the kind of power Julia has.

Torque, I think you've discovered a way for Howard to regain his sense of usefulness. He knows about air bags and  anti-lock brake systems. He may not be able to engineer them himself, but he could become an advocate for introducing technologies like that into The Weald. Ruth could be his sponsor, put him to work identifying earth innovations that would make life better for the men of The Weald.

In the old version of the story Ruth's company is trying to develop and sell a video game for men, with the main attraction that it is developed by men, and so men will ask their women to purchase it for them. If they would purchase a video game for their men, then why not purchase a safer car for them?

This would give Howard a reason to stay, and provide a path forward for him and Julia.

I read CC's PM (done) solicitation as what do you like, which for me is; (1) the unknowing (towing Howard like a toy during an effortless backstroke) OR overt (tree uprooting, reading ability comparisons) power imbalance demonstrations, (2) the erotic interactions. Not what is disliked, nor what should be changed. There's plenty of that in the chapter comments.

RevTekkX wrote: I read CC's PM (done) solicitation as what do you like, which for me is; (1) the unknowing (being towed like a toy during an effortless backstroke) OR overt (tree uprooting, reading abilities) power imbalance demonstrations, (2) the erotic interactions. Not what is disliked, nor what should be changed. There's plenty of that in the chapter comments.

I agree. I particularly liked the scenes when Julia goes for a stroll, ends up in a bar with men, and helps out bemused, struggling guys with her power. ('Why would she possibly want to help US for?', they would be thinking.)
It showed Julia's good human nature at heart, that she isn't really a bad person at all. Julia may be Nourished, but that doesn't mean she is one of the local Nourished, who would no doubt ignore the guy's struggles. It would be good to see more of this type of scenario!

There's lots to like about your story, circes. If I had to list some personal highlights:
- I like the strength feats, wheter casual and unaware or deliberate. That's an obvious one I believe, but I wanted to mention it anyway. 
- I love Mindy's backstory and the way she's more than just a mindless villain, I hope you explore this some more
- I also really like the interactions between Howard and Amanda and the way she's so obviously crushing on him. Makes you realize that, despite their incredible bodies, Amanda is still very much a teen and not some sort of deity. Same for the other women.
- I love it when we see more about life in the Weald in general. How their society works, how other women treat their men, what rules there are, stuff like that. Just some nice worldbuilding (allthough it's not very nice at all in most cases)

Now, I guess you know my frustrations and gripes already, so I'm not going to bother you with it on here as well  
I just hope you don't turn Howard in yet another submissive slave, other than that, I'm all game!

Thank you for all the hard work that goes into this, I can only imagine how much time, effort and talent are needed to create a story like this.
And it's really nice to see the amount of discussion and passion around it as well. Awesome stuff all around dude!

RevTekkX wrote: I read CC's PM (done) solicitation as what do you like, which for me is; (1) the unknowing (being towed like a toy during an effortless backstroke) OR overt (tree uprooting, reading ability comparisons) power imbalance demonstrations, (2) the erotic interactions. Not what is disliked, nor what should be changed. There's plenty of that in the chapter comments.

Fair. I tend to get long winded to make sure I'm being clear.

For me, I love the actual transformation, the act of growing and getting bigger and stronger. The end result of being super strong is hot and fun, but the process of becoming that is my favorite part. It would be cool to have a description of how their muscles are physically getting a little bigger at their workouts. The size is capped, but describing how they are actually a little smaller before "maxing out" and then growing is very appealing.

RevTekkX wrote: I read CC's PM (done) solicitation as what do you like, which for me is; (1) the unknowing (being towed like a toy during an effortless backstroke) OR overt (tree uprooting, reading abilities) power imbalance demonstrations, (2) the erotic interactions. Not what is disliked, nor what should be changed. There's plenty of that in the chapter comments.

Thanks.  This was indeed what I was getting at.  

Monty wrote: I agree. I particularly liked the scenes when Julia goes for a stroll, ends up in a bar with men, and helps out bemused, struggling guys with her power. ('Why would she possibly want to help US for?', they would be thinking.)It showed Julia's good human nature at heart, that she isn't really a bad person at all. Julia may be Nourished, but that doesn't mean she is one of the local Nourished, who would no doubt ignore the guy's struggles. It would be good to see more of this type of scenario!

Thanks.   I think the corrupting influence of power can go a long way to explaining how a person can be bad and good at the same time.

Victoria Nike wrote: There's lots to like about your story, circes. If I had to list some personal highlights:- I like the strength feats, wheter casual and unaware or deliberate. That's an obvious one I believe, but I wanted to mention it anyway.  - I love Mindy's backstory and the way she's more than just a mindless villain, I hope you explore this some more

Yes, I though Mindy’s character was detaching a bit from reality and wanted to ground it in the revised version.  Glad you liked it.

Victoria Nike wrote: - I also really like the interactions between Howard and Amanda and the way she's so obviously crushing on him. Makes you realize that, despite their incredible bodies, Amanda is still very much a teen and not some sort of deity. Same for the other women.- I love it when we see more about life in the Weald in general. How their society works, how other women treat their men, what rules there are, stuff like that. Just some nice worldbuilding (allthough it's not very nice at all in most cases)

Thanks for these points.  Maybe someday I’ll do someday I’ll do a story with even more world-building.  At the end of the day, this story was really supposed to be a character-driven story, so much of the Tolkien-esque world-building has been left out.  I’m glad to know there is interest in that.

Torque wrote: For me, I love the actual transformation, the act of growing and getting bigger and stronger. The end result of being super strong is hot and fun, but the process of becoming that is my favorite part. It would be cool to have a description of how their muscles are physically getting a little bigger at their workouts. The size is capped, but describing how they are actually a little smaller before "maxing out" and then growing is very appealing.

Funny, the growth sequence is the one thing that the story does not handle in detail.  However, there is a second growth sequence coming up much later in the story that you may enjoy.
——-

Thanks again for the comments guys.  It’s helpful to know what everyone enjoys because it gives me a sense of which passages are likely to be interesting to you and which might be wasted effort.  If you disargee with anything I said here, no need to debate it right now.  If the story is any good, it will explain itself!

anonxyzus wrote: Torque, I think you've discovered a way for Howard to regain his sense of usefulness. He knows about air bags and  anti-lock brake systems. He may not be able to engineer them himself, but he could become an advocate for introducing technologies like that into The Weald. Ruth could be his sponsor, put him to work identifying earth innovations that would make life better for the men of The Weald.

In the old version of the story Ruth's company is trying to develop and sell a video game for men, with the main attraction that it is developed by men, and so men will ask their women to purchase it for them. If they would purchase a video game for their men, then why not purchase a safer car for them?

This would give Howard a reason to stay, and provide a path forward for him and Julia.

I love this idea!  Thanks for sharing.    It would be a great way for Howard to feel useful.  Not sure the women of the Weald care enough about men to bother.  

They may not care enough about men to bother, but they may care enough about the money to be made.

anonxyzus wrote: They may not care enough about men to bother, but they may care enough about the money to be made.

Ruth to Howard; "A Pay-Tent?... what is this thing you call a Pay-Tent?"

 Howard; "No! It's a patent! I've invented it!"

 Ruth; "Very well, here are my bank account details for you to deposit your Pay-Tent!"

Monty wrote:

anonxyzus wrote: They may not care enough about men to bother, but they may care enough about the money to be made.

Ruth to Howard; "A Pay-Tent?... what is this thing you call a Pay-Tent?"

 Howard; "No! It's a patent! I've invented it!"

 Ruth; "Very well, here are my bank account details to deposit your Pay-Tent!"

In chapter 10 Ruth explains to Julia in, or near, the bonfire that women in the Weald hold 97% of all the patents. 

RevTekkX wrote:

Monty wrote:

anonxyzus wrote: They may not care enough about men to bother, but they may care enough about the money to be made.

Ruth to Howard; "A Pay-Tent?... what is this thing you call a Pay-Tent?"

 Howard; "No! It's a patent! I've invented it!"

 Ruth; "Very well, here are my bank account details to deposit your Pay-Tent!"

In chapter 10 Ruth explains to Julia in, or near, the bonfire that women in the Weald hold 97% of all the patents. 

Oops! Sorry, I was trying to inject a little humour into what are tough times, and how Howard would still struggle in the face of the dominant Women of the Weald...I'll reel it in...

Monty wrote:

RevTekkX wrote:

Monty wrote:

anonxyzus wrote: They may not care enough about men to bother, but they may care enough about the money to be made.

Ruth to Howard; "A Pay-Tent?... what is this thing you call a Pay-Tent?"

 Howard; "No! It's a patent! I've invented it!"

 Ruth; "Very well, here are my bank account details to deposit your Pay-Tent!"

In chapter 10 Ruth explains to Julia in, or near, the bonfire that women in the Weald hold 97% of all the patents. 

Oops! Sorry, I was trying to inject a little humour into what are tough times, and how Howard would still struggle in the face of the dominant Women of the Weald...I'll reel it in...

I appreciate the humor!

A loose connection, but it does make me think that these women assume Earth men aren’t capable by any measure, and yet Mindy has yet to experience the full destructive capability of earth’s weapons.

twitch99 wrote:

anonxyzus wrote: Torque, I think you've discovered a way for Howard to regain his sense of usefulness. He knows about air bags and  anti-lock brake systems. He may not be able to engineer them himself, but he could become an advocate for introducing technologies like that into The Weald. Ruth could be his sponsor, put him to work identifying earth innovations that would make life better for the men of The Weald.

In the old version of the story Ruth's company is trying to develop and sell a video game for men, with the main attraction that it is developed by men, and so men will ask their women to purchase it for them. If they would purchase a video game for their men, then why not purchase a safer car for them?

This would give Howard a reason to stay, and provide a path forward for him and Julia.

I love this idea!  Thanks for sharing.    It would be a great way for Howard to feel useful.  Not sure the women of the Weald care enough about men to bother.  

Seems to me like that would just trade one form of selflessness for another. Ruth, and now Julia, seem to think that Howard should find purpose and meaning in ensuring that Julia has a steady supply of orgasms. Is it really much better to derive your sole purpose in making more money for Ruth (even if it does improve the lives of men along the way)? Don't get me wrong, it's nice to feel useful, but I don't think that's all that a person needs in order to feel fulfilled. If he's supposed to give some thought to the needs of others, then those others should give some thought to his needs, especially someone who claims to love him. I think what Howard needs is a girlfriend who cares about his needs (like surviving the next few days) as much as he's supposed to care about hers.

Working for Ruth would be a step up, in that she'd probably pay him, but there are a few hurdles. Julia knows about all the safety inventions from Earth just as much as Howard does. And she was the one who heard Mindy talk of her father's death, so she knows better than Howard that those things are needed in the Weald. And since Howard is still illiterate he'd be dependent on some woman to read an employment contract or apply for a patent. I wouldn't put it past Ruth to give him 2% of the royalties from his idea, and charge him 4% for room and board.

Oops! Sorry, I was trying to inject a little humour into what are tough times, and how Howard would still struggle in the face of the dominant Women of the Weald...I'll reel it in...

If my inference that you thought I may have been offended by the Pay-Tent post is correct, fear not. I was just pumping out facts in case they had been glossed over.

Howard has no money, no assets, so he needs to get funding from somewhere, and Ruth is the only woman of means he knows. And he wouldn't be doing it to make Ruth richer, even if that does happen. He'd be doing it to make life for men easier, and find his own value in himself, not in the eyes of the women. He would find validation in the eyes of the men whose lives he improves.

The point you raise about Julia knowing the same things Howard knows is valid, but it appears to me that she has changed enough to have lost interest in anything having to do with men that doesn't make her feel better about herself, or, as you put it, ensuring that she has a steady stream of orgasms.

anonxyzus wrote: Howard has no money, no assets, so he needs to get funding from somewhere, and Ruth is the only woman of means he knows. And he wouldn't be doing it to make Ruth richer, even if that does happen. He'd be doing it to make life for men easier, and find his own value in himself, not in the eyes of the women. He would find validation in the eyes of the men whose lives he improves.

I didn't explain my point very well, I guess. Consider Julia for a minute, and the things that make her happy. She's content to go cavorting with giant eels, have a cookout on the beach, get a rubdown, and have sex for a few hours. These are all things that feel good to her. No one is suggesting that she would experience greater fulfillment in finding some way to serve others; and, in fact, her pleasure often comes at the expense of others. Even at the beginning of the story, when they were still on Earth and she was quite unhappy, no one said that she should find a way to serve others in order to feel better about herself.

Howard, on the other hand, seems to be expected to serve others. Ruth says that he should be focused only on serving Julia. The suggestion here is that he use his knowledge from Earth to serve the men of the Weald. Would we look down on him if he hooked up with Amanda for no better reason than he enjoyed it? Why is only Julia allowed to be a hedonist?

Being useful, and having something to contribute to the world, is great. And it's also nice to get rewarded for it. But those aren't the only callings in life.

The point you raise about Julia knowing the same things Howard knows is valid, but it appears to me that she has changed enough to have lost interest in anything having to do with men that doesn't make her feel better about herself, or, as you put it, ensuring that she has a steady stream of orgasms.

If Julia saw that there was money to be made by introducing Earth inventions in the Weald, I wouldn't put it past her to patent everything she could think of before Howard could; despite the fact that Howard needs that money more than she does.

circes_cup wrote:
Funny, the growth sequence is the one thing that the story does not handle in detail.  However, there is a second growth sequence coming up much later in the story that you may enjoy.

Regarding this, is there a reason why you chose not to describe the transformation in detail? I think yours is one of the best FMG stories I've ever read, so it has always struck me as odd that you ignored that part.

Byzantine wrote:

circes_cup wrote:
Funny, the growth sequence is the one thing that the story does not handle in detail.  However, there is a second growth sequence coming up much later in the story that you may enjoy.

Regarding this, is there a reason why you chose not to describe the transformation in detail? I think yours is one of the best FMG stories I've ever read, so it has always struck me as odd that you ignored that part.

Good question.  There are plenty of (great) stories out there that cover growth and transformation in detail.  But almost all of them stop when the transformation is complete.   I was interetsed in writing a story on what comes after — the less perceptible inner transformations that occur as a result of the of the move visible transformation on the outside.  

I think it’s actually a very interesting storyline generally: for example, the kid who was an overlooked tech geek in high school but then grows up to be a highly successful tech entrepreneur.  Does he ever lose his sense of being an underdog?  Does he remember what it’s like to be unpopular?  Or does he treat his newfound wealth and power as cosmic payback for all the shit he experienced in high school?

There is a transformation scene coming up, but it is much much later and, again, is not the focus of the story.  Thanks for the question!

circes_cup wrote:

Byzantine wrote:

circes_cup wrote:
Funny, the growth sequence is the one thing that the story does not handle in detail.  However, there is a second growth sequence coming up much later in the story that you may enjoy.

Regarding this, is there a reason why you chose not to describe the transformation in detail? I think yours is one of the best FMG stories I've ever read, so it has always struck me as odd that you ignored that part.

Good question.  There are plenty of (great) stories out there that cover growth and transformation in detail.  But almost all of them stop when the transformation is complete.   I was interetsed in writing a story on what comes after — the less perceptible inner transformations that occur as a result of the of the move visible transformation on the outside.  

I think it’s actually a very interesting storyline generally: for example, the kid who was an overlooked tech geek in high school but then grows up to be a highly successful tech entrepreneur.  Does he ever lose his sense of being an underdog?  Does he remember what it’s like to be unpopular?  Or does he treat his newfound wealth and power as cosmic payback for all the shit he experienced in high school?

There is a transformation scene coming up, but it is much much later and, again, is not the focus of the story.  Thanks for the question!

Very interesting. Any hints as to what or who?

Torque wrote:

circes_cup wrote: Funny, the growth sequence is the one thing that the story does not handle in detail.  However, there is a second growth sequence coming up much later in the story that you may enjoy.

circes_cup wrote:
There is a transformation scene coming up, but it is much much later and, again, is not the focus of the story.  Thanks for the question!

Very interesting. Any hints as to what or who?

Nope!

Sunday TV turned off and an evening's reading awaits. Chapters 12 to 14 are up. Many thanks Circes!

Back in chap 10 Ruth comments to Julia,
“Trying to convince Howard that he is more than he is, or trying to convince him that you are less than you truly are, is deceit. You never should have asked him to give you a swim lesson. You never should have suggested he was capable of teaching you anything. In doing so, you were inviting him into a farce. But do not be too hard on yourself: it takes two to participate in a farce.” The woman’s emerald eyes sparkled in
the flames. “As long as there is Nourishment, the key to harmony between the genders is men’s acceptance of their inferiority and women’s acceptance of their superiority. Each must play their role.”

There''s something that could be called out by Mindy, Amanda, and Ruth about Julia's interaction with Howard.  She's making him promises.  Most importantly she's breaking those promises.  So to follow up with Ruth, a Weald woman would never make a promise to a man, for a Weald woman would know she can never keep that promise.  That promise would be expected to be carried through by a man, since women are perfect.  Therefore a broken promise to a man would be devastating.  Ruth knows Julia has promised at least to be celibate. 

As I previously mentioned, the posting of Ch 12-14 this weekend marks the beginning of a hiatus while I sort out some serious shit on Ch 15-23. I don’t know how long it’s going to take me.  The chapters are being handled as a single cluster and therefore there will be no posting of Ch 15 until Ch 23 is nearly done.Supportive messages are always appreciated.   But I’m not going to be providing progress updates, and there is no need to nudge and prod.  Believe me, I won’t forget about the story!To tide you over for the wait, today’s posting is extra long — 16,000 words — and should give you a little bit extra to chew on.  And more importantly...Illustrations!  I have been the grateful recipient of a number of works of visual art related to the story, and I’m happy to report that much of this great art has now been uploaded to the story chapters!All chapters now have at least one visual piece embedded within, with the exception of 09b, 09c, 09d, 10 and 11.The bulk of this art has come from Lowerbase, who is without peer in the female power 3D visual art world; I am very lucky to have so much of his work.  I also owe thanks to each and every one of the artists, and to Woodclaw for handling the uploads. I am in the process of adding proper attributions to each piece.  This is a great example of where SWM shines: I can’t think of many places where the story text (which is outside DA’s content guidelines, BTW) can be posted alongside the visual imagery (which many sites don’t support).  Thank you, SWM!