Supergirl season 3 - Ep 10 35 Days
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Superman to return for S2 finale

13 Apr 2017 11:25 - 13 Apr 2017 11:54 #53611 by five_red
five_red created the topic: Superman to return for S2 finale
According to E! Online, that is.

Superman's Back! Tyler Hoechlin Is Officially Returning to Supergirl

After Superman's last appearance, executive producer Andrew Kreisberg said he definitely hoped to bring Hoechlin back.

"We're thrilled with working Tyler, which has been an amazing experience," he told reporters at the time. "We just selfishly hope we get to do it again because it really added to the show in a way," he said.

Kreisberg also credited the success of Supergirl's Superman to the fact that Hoechlin was playing a Superman we hadn't seen much of before.

"We very cognizant of not wanting him to come in and steal her thunder, so this Superman that we designed was something that you really haven't seen too much of," Kreisberg said. "Usually when you see Superman, even when it's in the Christopher Reeve movie or Man of Steel or Lois & Clark, he's just starting out and we wanted to show Superman who's been doing this for a decade and has gotten really, really good at it."

"He was really coming in as a supporting character for Kara, to be a friend and a cousin and a mentor," he continued. "We simultaneously wanted to have a Superman who was relatable and fun and sort of everything that you remember about Superman from your childhood that was great, while also, at the same time, de-mystifying him a little bit."


I'm guessing a fair few people on here won't like this news -- there's been grumblings extending well beyond this forum about how Kara is a supporting character in her own show, but The Flash and Superman get ratings, so expect more crossovers and guest appearances throughout S3.

My own take is that story-wise this is largely unnecessary. In the comics, Kara and Kal-El developed into very different people with different perspectives on how to approach being a superhero, so it was interesting to see them interact (sometimes cringe-worthy, given Superman's perchance for being patronising.) In the CW series the characters are so alike that it isn't possible to have any real drama or tension -- effectively each character is interacting with a reflection. As such, all Supergirl can do is keep grinning and pointing at her cousin, while keeping one eye on the Nielsen scores.

Btw: Cat Grant is also returning for the final two episodes, but there's scant reference to this on social media. Anecdotally Supergirl's impact on social sites seems to have been declining over the course of season two, with new episodes generating very little commentary or animated GIF memes the following day. But Tumblr and Twitter lit up with the announcement of Tyler returning as Superman (very little on the excellent Calista, sadly!) There was an April fools joke on Reddit that Superman was to become a cast regular in S3 -- that's not going to happen, clearly, but it is obvious that the show needs him to keep its profile up.


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Supergirl Pre-Crisis Chronology: www.superwomenmania.com/supergirltl/
Supergirl: the Life and Times of Kara Zor-El: maidofmight.wordpress.com/
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13 Apr 2017 15:31 #53614 by ace191
ace191 replied the topic: Superman to return for S2 finale
Whatever they have to do to pay the bills and keep the show on the air is fine with me.
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13 Apr 2017 16:21 #53615 by kikass2014
kikass2014 replied the topic: Superman to return for S2 finale
Tbh, I'm fine with Supes being a supporting character that is used sparingly. It adds to the world-building imo, and I actually liked the guys portrayal of him in the episodes he was in.

We very cognizant of not wanting him to come in and steal her thunder...


This is good to hear, but I also take the point you make Five about there not really being a difference between Kara and Kal-El, thus almost rendering his inclusion moot (at least on some level). I think this problem partly stems from the way they have designed Kara, but it is defiantly one that needs to be corrected if they are to use Superman more (even if sparingly).

In relation to the ratings issue, I really don't think it is a question of having someone like The Flash come in to prop up the ratings. The show suffers from many issues that need to be addressed, which can generally be described as bad writing. I define this as:

- Unnecessary characters and sub-plots that detract from the main plot of the episode:
Get rid of some of the dross (Jimmy Olsen for example). They add nothing to the world.

- Bad character development:
Concentrate on building on each episode, but more crucially, define Kara and her power set/level.

- Bad plotting:
Define your overarching story at the beginning and build on it through the season. Don't introduce stupid things half-way through. For example, the season began with Cadamus as the main protagonist, and Lena as the "mysterious" element. But then this whole "Mon-El" stuff showed up. WTF??? Oh and lets not forget the whole "Guardian" thing.

In all three of these issues, the other shows in the Berlanti-verse deal with much, MUCH, better. And thus, are better shows for it. Perhaps if the show runners focused on these issues, then they wouldn't need to wheel in The Flash, or someone as iconic as Superman, to give the show a boost.

But hey, if all they want to do is appeal to little teeny-bopper girls, then carry on. I just feel you can have both.

Peace.

/K
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13 Apr 2017 18:03 #53621 by shadar
shadar replied the topic: Superman to return for S2 finale
Having Cat Grant back for a couple of shows wins a cheer from me. Hopefully, she's coming back to fire James for incompetence so she can save her media empire.

Snapper Carr should be running the show, which could be interesting as he challenges, fires, rehires, and ultimately teaches Kara how to be a good reporter. Like Clark and Lois, she'll never do it the way her editor wants, but perhaps she and Trapper can work out a way to benefit from her unusual access to stories involving Supergirl. That's a subplot that should be worked hard given it's a Kara-centric story, potentially a Supergirl story, and also one that viewers can relate to.
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13 Apr 2017 19:34 #53623 by theomach
theomach replied the topic: Superman to return for S2 finale
You bring up some very good points. I've got a feeling they'll start improving soon. Especially in season 3.

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24 Apr 2017 15:51 #53776 by AuGoose
AuGoose replied the topic: Superman to return for S2 finale
If it even gets another season. Personally I think Berlanti's whole writing team needs to move on to something more their speed... like flipping burgers.

Arrow burned me beyond redemption last season with terribad writing. On almost a dare, I tried to watch a few more episodes of Legends of Tomorrow and the pay off is a character who gets her powers from a mystic amulet being a bitch to a guy who built a suit of power armor... "'cause he doesn't have real powers." By the end of the episode someone's plucked her necklace off and NOT ONE WORD about the fact she has no 'real powers' either.. and unlike the guy she was ripping on, she'll NEVER HAVE POWERS AGAIN unless she gets that one exact necklace back, while he can rebuild his suit at any time from memory. Ah the joys of power unearned. Not even a hint of how ridiculous her behavior was. No, its all smiles and apologies to the tits, because Berlanti's men all have nothing to do in their lives except chase dat ass.

'Course then she goes on to attack all of them for reasons that are beyond blockhead only to wake up in a cell... still wearing her necklace that everyone knows is the source of her powers.

Who. Writes. This. SHIT?

((Just for yuks someone should have told her "that old thing? We threw it out an airlock. Because if we hadn't you'd inevitably escape and find it and we'd start all over. Nope. Not happening... Ever. Now you're the hero with no powers."))

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24 Apr 2017 16:17 #53777 by shadar
shadar replied the topic: Superman to return for S2 finale

AuGoose wrote: If it even gets another season. Personally I think Berlanti's whole writing team needs to move on to something more their speed... like flipping burgers.

Arrow burned me beyond redemption last season with terribad writing. On almost a dare, I tried to watch a few more episodes of Legends of Tomorrow and the pay off is a character who gets her powers from a mystic amulet being a bitch to a guy who built a suit of power armor... "'cause he doesn't have real powers." By the end of the episode someone's plucked her necklace off and NOT ONE WORD about the fact she has no 'real powers' either.. and unlike the guy she was ripping on, she'll NEVER HAVE POWERS AGAIN unless she gets that one exact necklace back, while he can rebuild his suit at any time from memory. Ah the joys of power unearned. Not even a hint of how ridiculous her behavior was. No, its all smiles and apologies to the tits, because Berlanti's men all have nothing to do in their lives except chase dat ass.

'Course then she goes on to attack all of them for reasons that are beyond blockhead only to wake up in a cell... still wearing her necklace that everyone knows is the source of her powers.

Who. Writes. This. SHIT?

((Just for yuks someone should have told her "that old thing? We threw it out an airlock. Because if we hadn't you'd inevitably escape and find it and we'd start all over. Nope. Not happening... Ever. Now you're the hero with no powers."))



I second all those thoughts. But I keep trying to figure out who likes this kind of writing, especially if the show continues to get renewed.

I understand those of us who have always been absolute fans of Supergirl -- we'll put up with a lot to see her on the screen. I'll end up watching every episode over time. But everything I've learned from several decades writing in this genre is that we're a small group.

Which means there has to be a large group of people who aren't particular SG fans who enjoy the show. What do they come for? The writing? That's a scary thought. Some mindless interaction involving some attractive characters that are living a life that's half comicbook fantasy and half a slice of real life? More likely that.

I grew up on Star Trek and eventually got to Dr. Who, Babylon, DS9, Battlestar Galactica, Firefly and now Expanse. And others. All had/have good writing (most of the time). But I'm sure current audiences would be bored to death with those shows.

I have to say I'm enjoying the heck out of Expanse. It's not always fun, but it's always dramatic, and has enough hard SF to be thought provoking. The books are way better (as always) but the show does a pretty good job given their budget. (Kind of hard in a TV show to portray Belters who grew up in low gravity and stand two meters or more in height and have bones so thin they'd break on Earth. But easy to describe and deal with in a book. As a for instance.)
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24 Apr 2017 18:41 - 24 Apr 2017 21:05 #53778 by brantley
brantley replied the topic: Superman to return for S2 finale
I've avoided SG and its kindred series. But the descriptions make them sound like soap opera. That's a genre that's almost extinct on TV because it no longer has long-term character-driven story lines, as in the classic Luke & Laura days on General Hospital, but just arbitrary short-term plots that you'd think must have come from a random number generator. People would rather keep up with the Kardashians than watch that sort of thing. But maybe the constant reboots of comic book franchises have created an audience for short-term soap opera plots in comic book movies and TV shows.

--Brantley
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24 Apr 2017 20:59 - 24 Apr 2017 21:00 #53779 by kikass2014
kikass2014 replied the topic: Superman to return for S2 finale

I understand those of us who have always been absolute fans of Supergirl -- we'll put up with a lot to see her on the screen. I'll end up watching every episode over time. But everything I've learned from several decades writing in this genre is that we're a small group.

Which means there has to be a large group of people who aren't particular SG fans who enjoy the show. What do they come for? The writing? That's a scary thought. Some mindless interaction involving some attractive characters that are living a life that's half comic book fantasy and half a slice of real life? More likely that.


This is a very interesting point Shadar, and by extension the points you make AuGoose.

I can only answer from my personal point of view of course. With regards to the standard of writing across the Berlanti-verse, I would say I am more then fine with the standard on The Flash, and to a lesser extent Legends of Tommorrow. I was fine with most of the writing in Supergirl (season one), but it really took a nose dive (imo) in season 2. There has been a slight "blip" in the last episode, but I will see if that is maintained.

Now, I want to clarify this by saying that I am in no way under the impression I am going to get some in-depth characters. Or that each and every episode will have an air tight narrative. "Fridge Logic" (I believe is the term often used) is fine for me in shows like this. Though to be fair, there is a breaking point, but its seldom reached.

Even with regards to world logic, I don't expect an in-depth explanation of how everything makes sense. Like The Flash. Things are explained on a superficial level, then the hand is waved and "it's a comic book". The same with Supergirl. For example, I respect the depth and thought you have put into your work Shadar, I love good world-building having done quite a bit of it myself, but I don't need that level of detail to explain/justify Supergirls powers.

Having said that, that does not mean that there shouldn't be ANY thought put into these shows. And to be fair, I would argue that both The Flash and Legends do have thought put into them. The plotting and developments (however wild and silly some find them), can be argued to have an internal logic and consistency. IMO Supergirl lags behind, because that show doesn't even reach that level, at least lately.

So, with regards to the comic book tv genre, if we were to have a spectrum of:

AuGoose/Shadar view <__________> Braindead soap opera view

I would probably sit just right of the center.

I too grew up on Star Trek (though re-runs) in the 80s, and Dr.Who (which I still watch to this day). I have seen Firefly, Babylon 5, DS9, Battlestar Galactica, and they are all excellent shows (for the most part). Is the Berlanti-verse of the same caliber? Hell no!

But the real question, again imo, is and should be, "Do I expect (to stay on topic a bit) the Berlanti-verse to be of the same caliber?"

The answer for me is no. And I can live with that.

I come for a bit of escapism. And generally, that is delivered.

Bit of a long-winded reply, but I hope most get the gist of it.

Peace.

/K
Last Edit: 24 Apr 2017 21:00 by kikass2014.
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26 Apr 2017 13:02 - 26 Apr 2017 13:34 #53800 by five_red
five_red replied the topic: Superman to return for S2 finale

shadar wrote: Which means there has to be a large group of people who aren't particular SG fans who enjoy the show. What do they come for? The writing? That's a scary thought. Some mindless interaction involving some attractive characters that are living a life that's half comicbook fantasy and half a slice of real life? More likely that.


What amazes me is that the audience don't see the various plot developments coming. Having now stopped watching I live the Supergirl show vicariously through social media and forums, and I was amazed at how many people were dumbfounded by Kara losing her job as a reporter, as if they didn't know that she'd be re-instated two episodes later (I assume Kara got her job back on Monday's episode, yes..?) Or maybe people are merely faining their ignorance: the whole Mon-El true identity story was apparently so transparent that many social contributors seemed to be impatient to get the revelation over with from the third or fourth week.

The problem is that the Berlanti cape shows seem to be trope heavy, and that makes them very predicable. I'm genuinely puzzled as to whether their audiences see the plot 'twists' coming but just don't care, or are so naive as to not see the bleeding obvious. And the shows rarely surprise; they don't double bluff by leading you into a false sense of trope (to coin a phrase) but then twist it unexpectedly, as many other shows often do. They are about as surprising as an episode of Scooby Doo -- but maybe that's the appeal? People (young and old) love Scooby Doo because it sticks to a well-worn pattern: even as kids we all knew who the ghoul secretly was every week because we knew the show's formula, but we went along with the ride just for the giggles. So maybe the audience watch Supergirl et al precisely because they don't bother to try the unexpected? Maybe the familiarity feels safe to the audience? Reassuringly predictable. No surprises: just story lines that always head in the direction you expect them to, and end up at the point you knew they would right from the start. Maybe that's the appeal?

Remember ... Supergirl has an audience ... and we are not that audience.

People here are expecting imaginative plots, reasonably plausible actions (within the fantasy context), and consistent characterisation. What Supergirl delivers is standard tropes, disjointed continuity married with plot holes, and characters that seem to vary their motivation and disposition from week to week as befits the theme of the script. It's not Star Trek. It's not Doctor Who. It's not trying to write clever stories, or explore moral issues through the medium of fantasy. It is basically just a fun show that doesn't make many demands of its audience, and doesn't pay much attention to detail. I suspect you either have to learn to embrace that fact, or move on to some other show.


R5

Supergirl Pre-Crisis Chronology: www.superwomenmania.com/supergirltl/
Supergirl: the Life and Times of Kara Zor-El: maidofmight.wordpress.com/
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Blog: x5red.tumblr.com/
Last Edit: 26 Apr 2017 13:34 by five_red.
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26 Apr 2017 16:06 #53802 by ace191
ace191 replied the topic: Superman to return for S2 finale
My wife likes this show. Not quite as much as NCIS with Mark Harmon but almost. She likes the hunks, the gals in pretty clothes, and SUPERGIRL. She doesn't really talk about it, but I bet she fatisizes about being Supergirl. I know she enjoys seeing "The Girls" win for once.
R5, I am guessing that you are not married. My wife does not watch this show for the plot. She frequently asks me what is going on. I generally have the plot figured out way in advance, but if I open my mouth and say anything I will be banished from the room (this holds double for NCIS).

The point I am trying to make is that she enjoys the scenery and the view and she does not care much where the ride ends up. I suspect that majority of this show's viewers think along the same lines that she does. She is watching for a pleasant hour of entertainment and could care less about things like comic book continuity.

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26 Apr 2017 18:00 - 26 Apr 2017 18:03 #53803 by shadar
shadar replied the topic: Superman to return for S2 finale

five_red wrote:

shadar wrote: Which means there has to be a large group of people who aren't particular SG fans who enjoy the show. What do they come for? The writing? That's a scary thought. Some mindless interaction involving some attractive characters that are living a life that's half comicbook fantasy and half a slice of real life? More likely that.


What amazes me is that the audience don't see the various plot developments coming. Having now stopped watching I live the Supergirl show vicariously through social media and forums, and I was amazed at how many people were dumbfounded by Kara losing her job as a reporter, as if they didn't know that she'd be re-instated two episodes later (I assume Kara got her job back on Monday's episode, yes..?) Or maybe people are merely faining their ignorance: the whole Mon-El true identity story was apparently so transparent that many social contributors seemed to be impatient to get the revelation over with from the third or fourth week.

The problem is that the Berlanti cape shows seem to be trope heavy, and that makes them very predicable. I'm genuinely puzzled as to whether their audiences see the plot 'twists' coming but just don't care, or are so naive as to not see the bleeding obvious. And the shows rarely surprise; they don't double bluff by leading you into a false sense of trope (to coin a phrase) but then twist it unexpectedly, as many other shows often do. They are about as surprising as an episode of Scooby Doo -- but maybe that's the appeal? People (young and old) love Scooby Doo because it sticks to a well-worn pattern: even as kids we all knew who the ghoul secretly was every week because we knew the show's formula, but we went along with the ride just for the giggles. So maybe the audience watch Supergirl et al precisely because they don't bother to try the unexpected? Maybe the familiarity feels safe to the audience? Reassuringly predictable. No surprises: just story lines that always head in the direction you expect them to, and end up at the point you knew they would right from the start. Maybe that's the appeal?

Remember ... Supergirl has an audience ... and we are not that audience.

People here are expecting imaginative plots, reasonably plausible actions (within the fantasy context), and consistent characterisation. What Supergirl delivers is standard tropes, disjointed continuity married with plot holes, and characters that seem to vary their motivation and disposition from week to week as befits the theme of the script. It's not Star Trek. It's not Doctor Who. It's not trying to write clever stories, or explore moral issues through the medium of fantasy. It is basically just a fun show that doesn't make many demands of its audience, and doesn't pay much attention to detail. I suspect you either have to learn to embrace that fact, or move on to some other show.


R5


You have absolutely nailed it, R5. Best characterization of the likely audience that I've read yet. And we (in general) are definitely not the audience.

I tried to watch this week's episode (Ace Reporter), I really did, but I couldn't make it halfway through. So I figured if I got stoned enough, maybe that would work. Nope. Even worse given my imagination was now racing even faster, and the show got stupidier.

I don't begrude people liking the show. We all have our ways of escaping reality for a bit. But I prefer ways that engage my brain and don't insult it. Just personal preference. It's basically the same reason I can't watch reality shows.

Instead, I settled down to enjoy the latest episode of Expanse. Now that's SF. They've got some writers! And a savvy, smart audience. Unfortunately, no super-powered females. But then, Supergirl barely has any either.

Shadar
Last Edit: 26 Apr 2017 18:03 by shadar.

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26 Apr 2017 21:02 #53804 by kikass2014
kikass2014 replied the topic: Superman to return for S2 finale

I tried to watch this week's episode (Ace Reporter), I really did, but I couldn't make it halfway through. So I figured if I got stoned enough, maybe that would work. Nope. Even worse given my imagination was now racing even faster, and the show got stupidier.


That's fair enough. By your own admission, this isn't really your cup of tea so to speak, so its totally understandable.

I personally think it was actually pretty good, one of the better ones this season (thought admittedly not saying a huge amount, but just being fair.).

It was well paced, there was some good banter between the characters. Sub-plots were kept to a minimum, and the episode even did some world-building with regards to Lena's character and also following on from the developments of the last episode. I found the scenes between Snapper and Kara quite well done (probably the best in the episode). If anything, the villain was a little weak, but like all villains in these shows, they are just a plot device in the main.

Now, in comparison to BSG, Babylon 5, and a lot of the other great SF shows, you are totally right, this couldn't hold a candle to them. But for me, and maybe others, it was a step in the right direction so to speak.

And that was nice to see :)

Just my 2 cents :)

Peace.

/K

P.S. In answer to your question Red, yes she did get her job back (predictably enough) :P
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