Amount:

DO WE STILL NEED WONDER WOMAN AFTER 75 YEARS?

26 Oct 2016 18:15 #50885 by fats
This week marks Wonder Woman‘s 75th anniversary, and there have been celebrations galore, including the “Wonder Woman 75th Anniversary Special” #1 (out Wednesday), and a ceremony at the United Nations last Friday, where Wonder Woman was named Honorary Ambassador for the Empowerment of Women and Girls.

The appointment was not, however, without controversy. UN staff members launched an online petition in opposition to the event, claiming that a fictional “large breasted, white woman of impossible proportions, scantily clad in a shimmery, thigh-baring body suit with an American flag motif and knee high boots” was a poor choice to lead the fight for gender equality.

www.cbr.com/do-we-still-need-wonder-woman-after-75-years/

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • fats
  • fats's Avatar Topic Author
  • Online
  • SWM - Administrator
  • SWM - Administrator
More
26 Oct 2016 21:08 #50887 by Markiehoe
Replied by Markiehoe on topic DO WE STILL NEED WONDER WOMAN AFTER 75 YEARS?
Some people can not have fun no matter how hard they try.

I suggest all those people that signed that petition get together and come up with an acceptable:
Flat chested
Man of color of believable proportions
Fully clad in dull colors
Covering the thigh
No American motif

You then get this guy


Yes we need Wonder Woman

This message has an attachment image.
Please log in or register to see it.

The following user(s) said Thank You: Sarge395, Ravens_ghost, SCOTT R

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • Markiehoe
  • Markiehoe's Avatar
  • Online
  • Uberposter of Distinction
  • Uberposter of Distinction
More
26 Oct 2016 21:19 #50888 by kikass2014
Replied by kikass2014 on topic DO WE STILL NEED WONDER WOMAN AFTER 75 YEARS?
^ AHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAAA

So true. So true.

Peace.

/K
The following user(s) said Thank You: Markiehoe

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
26 Oct 2016 22:54 #50889 by AuGoose
Replied by AuGoose on topic DO WE STILL NEED WONDER WOMAN AFTER 75 YEARS?
((shrug)) The observation she's a boring character is spot on, and that article made a farce of itself by making ludicrous claims about "what she is" that were pure self-aggrandizing delusion when held up against how the character has been portrayed any time THIS century. She's not a pacifist and most of her feminist moments were handled with all the grace of a 20 lb. sledge in the hands of a 7-year old. This would be the character whose most exciting moment in living memory was snapping Max Lord's neck (which in fact DID make her more useful that the whole motely parade of DC holier-than-thou lily-white vigilantes despite the gasps of horror). Hell, she was about 2 shades of red shy of a full-blown berserker in her recent movie appearance (she takes city-melting hits and GRINS). Being a big screen hero (finally), you can expect more physical ass-kicking when given the spotlight. And I do have some smirking concern that she'd be held up as a feminist idol when her "Kryptonite" is a 75 year old bondage gag.

Do we need her? Sure, as a legacy character that like all of the comic icons with 50+ years under their hood just won't bloody DIE ALREADY, but we've needed a strong female protagonist in the DC universe that can actually form a triangle with Bats and Supes instead of fitting neatly between them in a line where she brings nothing to the table the bookends don't already cover in overwhelming abundance.

Fine, we'll take what we can get. But the DCU and most certainly the UN deserve better.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
26 Oct 2016 23:35 - 26 Oct 2016 23:40 #50890 by AuGoose
Replied by AuGoose on topic DO WE STILL NEED WONDER WOMAN AFTER 75 YEARS?
Thinking about it for all of 90 seconds, I'm sure we could come up with better than Wonder Woman or "Straw Man". Marvel's certainly gone out of their way lately to re-brand Captain Marvel as a positive presence (still hate the color scheme, but the cut of her new costume is slowly growing on me...). Ororo/Storm is a long-time and storied figure whose led her team into its glory days. I'd put her up against Diana in a heartbeat for that claw your way up from street-rat vs. the born-a-princess-what-a-surprise-she-has-it-all story. I kind of like Psylocke both for not entirely ridiculous proportions (in her more recent appearances - yes, she's got some fine porn too, they all do) and practical ninja garb. With added fun of being an English woman reincarnated into an Asian body with some quirky insights into suddenly standing on the other side of the fence in certain racially-motivated heated exchanges.

This image is hidden for guests.
Please log in or register to see it.



DC's honestly kind of slow off the global-inclusiveness blocks, which most of their recent traction in promoting female characters going to Harley (a hard sell on the best of days) and Supergirl (because nothing says cushy upbringing like blonde-haired, blue-eyed American suburbanite in a wealthy foster home). If I had to roll with DC, I might lean towards Barbra Gordon/Oracle as a better image of a woman overcoming adversity to become an absolute lynch-pin of the make-the-world-better community. Sure, she's white and American, but she genuinely brings the smack down on evil --from a wheelchair-- and without throwing a punch or needing a single super power.

This image is hidden for guests.
Please log in or register to see it.

Last edit: 26 Oct 2016 23:40 by AuGoose.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
26 Oct 2016 23:42 #50891 by five_red
Replied by five_red on topic DO WE STILL NEED WONDER WOMAN AFTER 75 YEARS?

fats wrote: The appointment was not, however, without controversy. UN staff members launched an online petition in opposition to the event, claiming that a fictional “large breasted, white woman of impossible proportions, scantily clad in a shimmery, thigh-baring body suit with an American flag motif and knee high boots” was a poor choice to lead the fight for gender equality.


Yes her costume is patently absurd, and yes she has a body shape that is unachievable by the majority of real women, but... WONDER WOMAN ISN'T A REAL WOMAN..!

Let me transport you back to 1954, when a certain Dr. Fredric Wertham published a book called The Seduction of the Innocent. The book caused quite a stir, given that it purported to expose the seedy world of children's comicbooks to American parents. Superman was cast as a fascist, Batman and Robin were accused of homosexuality, and Wonder Woman, naturally, was alleged to be promoting lesbianism. True, when seen through harsh adult eyes, divorced from the context, rules, and conventions of the comic book world that these characters inhabit, it is very easy to read into these characters all manner of sins -- today we would no doubt add paedophilia to the list of Batman's crimes -- but the point is: these characters didn't inhabit a harsh cynical adult world. They occupied a fantasy world, who's rules didn't acknowledge sex of any kind, let alone gay sex.

It's a game we've all played at one time or another: I'm sure I'm not the only one who has joked with friends over a drink about what was really in those Scooby-Snacks, or the true nature of Bert and Ernie's relationship. But we know that the joke is a joke -- Bert and Ernie aren't gay, and nor are they hetro, because the concept doesn't apply to the rules of the Seasame Street world where glove puppets mingle alongside humans as if it's commonplace.

So what of the Amazing Amazon..?

Wonder Woman isn't a real woman, and that's why she doesn't look like the majority of real women. Superman isn't a real man, and he doesn't look like the majority of real men. Daffy Duck isn't a real duck, which is why he doesn't look like a real duck. Miss Piggy isn't a real pig, which is why she doesn't look like a real sow. All of these characters live within fantasy worlds that are different to our world.

The protesters at the UN event are modern day Fredric Werthams -- finding all manner of scandalised horrors in fiction by intentionally stripping away the fantasy context and treating the characters as if they are part of the real world. They see Miss Piggy and they don't see a comical glove puppet purveyor of slapstick humour -- they see instead a violent, self-centred, parody of a female, whose very name -- Miss Piggy -- shames all woman whose body shape is not of supermodel proportions..!

Now... the fact that some commentators spend their days tilting at windmills certainly doesn't mean that there aren't real issues that need discussing. Yes, there really is a very real and urgent debate we need to have about the sexualisation of young girls, and the way that pop stars and fashion seem to be driving erotic and sexual imagery to younger and younger demographics of girls. That's a valid discussion to have -- but dragging fantasy character into the debate isn't contributing anything of value. Which leads me on to...

The reason that dragging fantasy characters like Wonder Woman or Miss Piggy into the debate isn't helpful is because children recognise them as fantasy characters! No child -- no matter how young -- was surprised to find that real world rabbits don't look like Bugs Bunny. No child was ever confused by the fact that real pigs don't talk like Jim Henson characters. No child ever really thought that they could regenerate if injured, like Doctor Who. No child ever mistook Wonder Woman for a real woman!!!

Some adults are too stupid to separate fantasy from reality -- but the kids seem to do it instinctively!

Wonder Woman is now 75 years old. If she really did have a corrupting, corrosive, cancerous influence on the minds and self-image of young girls, then she's been poisoning not only this generation, but their mothers, their grandmothers, and (possibly) their great grandmothers too. Strange how nobody seemed to noticed... until now.

God save us from the Fredric Wertham's of this world -- please!! People who take serious debates, but turn them into pantomime with their lack of imagination and their total inability to separate the fictional from the real. There was nothing wrong with parents in the 1950s being concerned about of the effects of the new mediums of television and comicbooks on their kids, and there's nothing wrong with modern day parents being concerned about the effect Miley Cyrus has on kids -- but there is everything wrong in manufacturing problems where there's no evidence problems exist. *

* = In 2010 the research data Fredric Wertham used to support his claims in Seduction of the Innocent was finally release. Analysis of the data concluded that none of the claims he made in his book -- or delivered at government hearings -- were supported by evidence.

R5

Supergirl Pre-Crisis Chronology: www.superwomenmania.com/supergirltl/
Supergirl: the Life and Times of Kara Zor-El: maidofmight.wordpress.com/
DeviantArt: 5red.deviantart.com/
Blog: x5red.tumblr.com/
The following user(s) said Thank You: Sarge395, Ravens_ghost, SCOTT R, jnw550, Markiehoe

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
26 Oct 2016 23:54 #50892 by AuGoose
Replied by AuGoose on topic DO WE STILL NEED WONDER WOMAN AFTER 75 YEARS?
Wonder Woman hardly needs to be corrupt or cancerous to be a poor choice for the goal being sought after. And yes, there's a LOT of places sick to death of American hegemony and a white super-model (in a distinctly American mode) decked out in bits and bobs of American regalia ain't welcome. Sorry.

The move was poorly thought out, blithely ignorant of its own subtext, and deserving of some harsh scrutiny. Its a bit like Speampunk fans abruptly realizing that outside of their cheery Victorian faux-utopia pith helmets are synonymous with bloody oppression.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
27 Oct 2016 00:26 - 27 Oct 2016 00:29 #50893 by kikass2014
Replied by kikass2014 on topic DO WE STILL NEED WONDER WOMAN AFTER 75 YEARS?

Yes her costume is patently absurd, and yes she has a body shape that is unachievable by the majority of real women, but...WONDER WOMAN ISN'T A REAL WOMAN..!....

Warning: Spoiler! [ Click to expand ]


*Put the bulk in a spoiler tag due to its length, but wanted it all because...

...SO MUCH THIS R5!

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Peace.

/K
Last edit: 27 Oct 2016 00:29 by kikass2014.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Sarge395, five_red

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
27 Oct 2016 00:40 #50895 by Markiehoe
Replied by Markiehoe on topic DO WE STILL NEED WONDER WOMAN AFTER 75 YEARS?
So a white, American woman is immediately ruled out of the discussion because she is white and American.
I just wanted to get that straight.

I guess that puts my Grandmothers, Mother, Sisters, Aunts, Cousins, Wife, Nieces, and Daughter right out of the running.
No matter what they do EVER.
Just because they are White and American.
Thank goodness the staffers of the United Nations (who live a pretty good life in the U.S.) is out there looking after us.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Sarge395, SCOTT R

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • Markiehoe
  • Markiehoe's Avatar
  • Online
  • Uberposter of Distinction
  • Uberposter of Distinction
More
27 Oct 2016 02:32 - 27 Oct 2016 02:32 #50899 by shadar

Markiehoe wrote: So a white, American woman is immediately ruled out of the discussion because she is white and American.
I just wanted to get that straight.

I guess that puts my Grandmothers, Mother, Sisters, Aunts, Cousins, Wife, Nieces, and Daughter right out of the running.
No matter what they do EVER.
Just because they are White and American.
Thank goodness the staffers of the United Nations (who live a pretty good life in the U.S.) is out there looking after us.


White and American wasn't the only two reasons they stated. You are forgetting over-endowed, wearing a tiny American flag bathing suit and those boots. She doesn't look anything like the majority of the UN membership. In many UN countries, she would have been arrested for dressing in public like that. Most of the world isn't white.

More importantly to me, they should have picked someone REAL who has done something heroic for female empowerment. Not some controversial comic-book character created by a guy with some serious bondage fetishes.

As far as the women in your family, if they are internationally known for their feats of female empowerment, then they should not have been ruled out.
Last edit: 27 Oct 2016 02:32 by shadar.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
27 Oct 2016 02:39 #50900 by Markiehoe
Replied by Markiehoe on topic DO WE STILL NEED WONDER WOMAN AFTER 75 YEARS?
I agree it should be a real person but I also believe this Wonder Woman appointment was supposed to be a FUN thing.
There is no living or dead human that can stand up to the scrutiny of being THE female role model.

Someone on this thread singled out White Americans.
The following user(s) said Thank You: SCOTT R

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • Markiehoe
  • Markiehoe's Avatar
  • Online
  • Uberposter of Distinction
  • Uberposter of Distinction
More
27 Oct 2016 02:43 #50901 by Sarge395
Replied by Sarge395 on topic DO WE STILL NEED WONDER WOMAN AFTER 75 YEARS?
Personally I find the UN to be a useless, overpaid, privileged organization that is full of scandals and little else.

They shouldn't be concerned over mascots and special BS events. Just do a smidgen of what your charter asks you to do. Relocate it to Saudi Arabia where tolerance and freedom are the bedrock of their society. You want women's rights? Start there and in half the other abusive countries everyone knows about. Promoting a fantasy figure (in more ways than one) was not a bright idea. Add it to the list of stupidity emanating from the UN.

I will never forget running airfield ops in Afghanistan when a small 12-15 passenger twin prop UN plane landed. Three UN white Land Rovers had gotten there a few minutes before. We were waiting for a C130 resupply and had secured the field already. Out stepped 3 passengers. One of them was a UN envoy who had her friggin poodle with her. She took it about 20 feet away to some brush so it could piss. Then they loaded up and went into the city. It was surreal.
The following user(s) said Thank You: SCOTT R, jnw550, Markiehoe

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • Sarge395
  • Sarge395's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Uberposter of Distinction
  • Uberposter of Distinction
More
27 Oct 2016 02:50 #50902 by Markiehoe
Replied by Markiehoe on topic DO WE STILL NEED WONDER WOMAN AFTER 75 YEARS?
Sarge is so RIGHT ON here.
The UN should be a drifting organization set up in the POOREST country on the face of the Earth.
When the delegates step outside they should have to obey all laws and customs of that country.
I'll bet the UN staffers would stop worrying about comic book characters then and start working on basic human rights reforms.
The following user(s) said Thank You: jdrock24, SCOTT R

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • Markiehoe
  • Markiehoe's Avatar
  • Online
  • Uberposter of Distinction
  • Uberposter of Distinction
More
27 Oct 2016 05:01 #50906 by castor
Wonder Woman Started very much as a comment on Femenism-Speicifically Secondish wave World War 2 era Femenism where Woman could work in our factories, do our jobs...and maybe be better then men.

This was something of a controversial topic. Now Women have been working forever professionally- there have always been waitresses, maids, what ever, but the idea that a middle class woman could have a job that women traditionally did was something. controversial. And there was an intresting idea of a woman in a mans world.

And then in the 50s women went home(the story goes there not totally or really)-and Wonder Woman went dark for awhile-concidentally with the decline of comics, but noticably. Then in the 60s you see the start of fenemism going whole hog in the 70s-and while Wonder Woman was a little slow to catch up, its worth noting that she was a fenemist icon, and by the time the show hit she was a phenomenai agian-during an era where agian women where saying something intresting in a mans world

And in the 80s they did a decent job of keeping up and saying intresting things about a world where women where entering the work force agian in large numbers finding there spot.

But this is going some place. Wonder Woman is a character about a womens in a mans World-and there is a point where i think thats no longer by itself intresting or wonder woman the character lost some of the focus of that.

We live in a World(well western culture) Where Woman are less in the workplace by men, but its margins. The real struggle seems to be:How can we make the womans who are there is better. There is sexual harrasment, there is unequal pay and materinity issues that often lead to it. There is Rape Culture, the idea of objectification(and its counter point of slut shaming) and all of these things. And kind of the general milase of a world that for the young isn't entirely working as well as it did economically or socially as it did for preivous generation.

These are things Wonder woman in the comic has touched on-but its never a point of view of She experiences that, but she wants to make it better. She remains perfect and above it never gritty. And thats her character, you couldn't change it(i think in a way some of the ideas that she is a demi god stuff is an oblique idea to put her more squarly in this, but its oblique).

But When i think of characters that try to deal with womens issue in an intresting way: I think more of Batgirl with her Young Woman in a city, affect. Supergirl cliched as it is, plays with these idea in the show. Harly Quinn who just doesn't play by the rules. Power Girl is similar to wonder Woman in a lot of ways but sometimes plays better becuse shes not perfect. We also have Ms. Marvel playing with the Teenage Minority,She Hulk who has everything but gets stares for it, or even someone like Squirrel Girl who lives in her own reality but at least makes it so appealing that you want it to be.

Which is what i think in a way Wonder Woman has lost at some point. Shes the ideal of what the world should be-and thats well and good-but i think more and more we know what that is. So maybe we don't need her, or rethink it.

I think in the last 10 years they have really played the warrior idea-give her a sword and a shield. i think in part this is a response to the idea of woman in active combat, so make her more a warrior then the warrios(also i think its copying a bit of Xena). I just can't help they need something diffrent at some point. Becuse honestly it is a a little to make you loose intrest.
The following user(s) said Thank You: five_red

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • castor
  • castor's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Uberposter of Distinction
  • Uberposter of Distinction
More
28 Oct 2016 00:54 #50915 by shadar
One thing that's funny about all this is that the UN was created during WWII by Roosevelt and Churchill to fight Nazis. It picked up where the League of Nations had failed.

Wonder Woman was also created during WWII and her initial role was to fight Nazis while dressed in a skimpy costume that suggested the US flag. Which was very inspiring at the time (even now for some folks).

But now, 60+ years later, the UN has a mixed response to her. I wonder if those who protest her even know that they work for an organization which was created with the same goals as Wonder Woman, and at the same time?
The following user(s) said Thank You: Markiehoe

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
28 Oct 2016 04:04 #50920 by AuGoose
Replied by AuGoose on topic DO WE STILL NEED WONDER WOMAN AFTER 75 YEARS?
Or that could be the exact problem - that Wonder Woman is an archaic throwback to a time when the USA was riding high on international good will and hadn't spent decades squandering it with unending wars while morphing into corporate-controlled state that would make Mussolini blush. Because the funny thing about 60 years is that things change in that time. Political landscapes amongst them.

I really am certain that the people who proposed it had nothing but the best of intentions. But it also reeks of nostalgic myopia and not just a little corporate self-promotion with the movie coming up. She's been around 75 years... We're supposed to think it's coincidence that this got trotted out right after the movie trailers? She wasn't positive enough before? Timing IS everything, and if for no other reason that that I can see every level of UN staffer a bit pissed off about being made into a corporate shill for Warner Brothers' next summer blockbuster. This is NOT a folk hero. Wonder Woman is a property. Trademarked from start to finish. Used to sell soup and chewable vitamins.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
28 Oct 2016 10:12 #50925 by kikass2014
Replied by kikass2014 on topic DO WE STILL NEED WONDER WOMAN AFTER 75 YEARS?

But it also reeks of nostalgic myopia and not just a little corporate self-promotion with the movie coming up.


I'd say it reeked a LOT of this to be fair.

And I definatley share your view on what the UN is in its current form and capacity.

Peace.

/K

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
Time to create page: 0.166 seconds