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LaPorte Caves
I agree with you for the most part, but it seems like Julia and Howard have stepped back from the brink a little bit in this latest chapter. Julia seems to be finally trying to understand how Howard feels about things, and she has put some effort into giving him some tools to cope in that world. On the other hand, she still considers him feeble, has to stop herself from constantly correcting him, and thinks nothing of drugging him without his knowledge or consent.Woodclaw wrote: Chapter 21 it's a really interesting turning point, but it also highlight one interesting dycotomy in how Julia is currently handling herself. On one hand it's nice to see her finally playing her strength, not the ones given to her by the Nourishment, but those she has because of who she is and how her experience has shaped her so far. On the other her relationship seem to be getting closer and closer to the breaking point: Julia clearly means well and she want to help Howard somehow, but her approach so far has been so ham-fisted that it's kind of surprising seeing her understanding other people so well. I think that the biggest problem is that she hasn't really adjusted to the idea of having the upper hand on Howard so completely: with the people at Ruth's company she was able to empatize because she had been in their spot for most of her life, but with Howard she just can't find a balance point.
This chapter switched back to Julia's point-of-view, so maybe her assessment of Howard's state of mind may not be the same as his own.
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- smoki07
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I kind of expected Howard to say something like "everything I'm thinking may have been put in my head by you."“Your skin has lost all of its color. And your mind seems somewhere else. What’s going on in that head of yours?”
“Not as much as what’s going on in yours.” He replied in the direction of the ceiling. “Everything I’m thinking, everything I’m capable of thinking, probably seems so trivial to you.”
“That’s not true honey.” Her heart ached to watch the machinations of his feeble brain. “What you think is very important to me.”
Julia replies that what Howard thinks is important to her, but is it? It's just a few lines later that he says he's not in the mood to sleep, but she knocks him out and he sleeps anyway. Julia may tell herself that Howard's thoughts are important, but they aren't so important that she won't override them and replace them with other thoughts that she likes better.
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- Pepper
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Pepper wrote: There's another passage from chapter 21 that is kind of nagging at me. From right at the beginning (Julia speaking first).
I kind of expected Howard to say something like "everything I'm thinking may have been put in my head by you."“Your skin has lost all of its color. And your mind seems somewhere else. What’s going on in that head of yours?”
“Not as much as what’s going on in yours.” He replied in the direction of the ceiling. “Everything I’m thinking, everything I’m capable of thinking, probably seems so trivial to you.”
“That’s not true honey.” Her heart ached to watch the machinations of his feeble brain. “What you think is very important to me.”
Julia replies that what Howard thinks is important to her, but is it? It's just a few lines later that he says he's not in the mood to sleep, but she knocks him out and he sleeps anyway. Julia may tell herself that Howard's thoughts are important, but they aren't so important that she won't override them and replace them with other thoughts that she likes better.
Thanks Pepper! Here's my take: We all like to think that we value our partner's thoughts, until those thoughts turn out to be at odds with our own. Julia suggests that she values Howards thoughts, but then Howard grows so despondent that it seems unhealthy, and Julia decides that mutual respect has to take a back seat to sleep and recovery. It's so easy for her to cross the line from hands-off to just fixing the problem herself..... or convincing herself she can fix it.
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smoki07 wrote: I did not expected this twist about Julia's behavior to howard, relationship seems going on good track. Now there is maybe a mindgame played by her even if she means well. If the video game project will be a sucess, Ruth may offer a job in company and that will cause a crisis in the couple. can't wait for more.
grungykitten wrote: Chapter 21 is fantastic! Totally moves the story in a new and very welcome direction. Julia's newfound spine is exactly what she needed, and i can't wait to see where it takes her.
Thanks guys!!
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circes_cup wrote:
Pepper wrote: There's another passage from chapter 21 that is kind of nagging at me. From right at the beginning (Julia speaking first).
I kind of expected Howard to say something like "everything I'm thinking may have been put in my head by you."“Your skin has lost all of its color. And your mind seems somewhere else. What’s going on in that head of yours?”
“Not as much as what’s going on in yours.” He replied in the direction of the ceiling. “Everything I’m thinking, everything I’m capable of thinking, probably seems so trivial to you.”
“That’s not true honey.” Her heart ached to watch the machinations of his feeble brain. “What you think is very important to me.”
Julia replies that what Howard thinks is important to her, but is it? It's just a few lines later that he says he's not in the mood to sleep, but she knocks him out and he sleeps anyway. Julia may tell herself that Howard's thoughts are important, but they aren't so important that she won't override them and replace them with other thoughts that she likes better.
Thanks Pepper! Here's my take: We all like to think that we value our partner's thoughts, until those thoughts turn out to be at odds with our own. Julia suggests that she values Howards thoughts, but then Howard grows so despondent that it seems unhealthy, and Julia decides that mutual respect has to take a back seat to sleep and recovery. It's so easy for her to cross the line from hands-off to just fixing the problem herself..... or convincing herself she can fix it.
The biggest is that from a certain perspective Julia's actions are rational: Howard is a very opinionated and indipendent man in world where these traits might easily lead to an early grave. From a strictly logical perspective Julia's wish to make him a bit less vocal is reasonable, but what I think she don't understand is that by doing this she keep intruding in a very unhealthy way for both of them: for Howard each time she use her powers to control him it hurts both his self-esteem and his love for her, for Julia it's a small step toward the edge of the cliff. It's funny that a number of women from the Weald seem to be genuinely attracted by Howard and his attitude either because they see a challenge in it or because they really seek a more active and confrontational partner.
Anyway, just the simple fact that Julia was able to spy on Howard while he was on the atoll and doesn't seem to be that much bothered by it reveals one interesting detail: how Julia perceive personal space. For a long time of my life I had been a very shy, introverted person without much self-esteem (I still am in many ways), which might make my judgement very biased, but I think that two element are concurring to her constant intruding into Howard's sphere:
- Having been the weaker part of the relationship for a long time, Julia see has her duty to protect Howard in the Weald much in the same way he did with her on Earth.
- Possibly due to her introverted persona, I suspect that Julia has a very limited perception of personal space and so she consider most of intrusions to be relatively minor and throughly justified by her growing concerns.
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What do I mean by that?
In a recent chat Njae pointed it out for me: in a world where everybody has powers, none is really super (misquoting Syndrome a bit). This is actually a very valid point, for the people of the weald the fact that Julia can benchpress a house or hear them sigh from across town is utterly normal (albeit still terrifying), none of that makes her special because that's what they expect out of a woman. What sets Julia apart and might make her super is her ability to empatize with the men of the weald. From our perspective this is trivial, but from theirs it's huge. I said many times before that the real bane of the Weald isn't Nourishment, but Pre-Nourishment, because getting powers -- however limited -- from a young age robs most women of the ability to empatize and understand the hardship men are experiencing. Even women that are exceptionally perceptive and understanding, as Ruth seem to be very often, only understand these problems on a rational and intellectual perspective. It's the same difference that there is between reading about a illness and getting infected for real. In this sense the ability to see things from the perspective of these men is Julia's actual superpower.
This is sometimes called Mooreffoc effect -- a world first used by C.K. Chesterton and later by J.R.R. Tolkien -- when something apparently ordinary becomes extraordinary looked from a completely different perspective. I pretty much wrote my entire bachelor degree thesis on how this effect was one of the basic premises of Terry Pratchett's Discworld
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Interesting analysis, and I agree that Julia's history gives her a unique perspective on how to deal with men. I still wonder if a nourished woman could achieve the same result through purely rational and intellectual means. Ruth or Kylia (the manager that Julia is replacing in Ruth's company) could have done just what Julia did when making the flashcard program for Howard. They could have read all the psychology papers, learned just what level of vocabulary would work best when interacting with male programmers, what sort of facial and verbal feedback indicates that they have maximum understanding, how often to check on their progress, whether to use a carrot or a stick as rewards, that sort of thing. I think it's telling that neither of them did.Woodclaw wrote: In a recent chat Njae pointed it out for me: in a world where everybody has powers, none is really super (misquoting Syndrome a bit). This is actually a very valid point, for the people of the weald the fact that Julia can benchpress a house or hear them sigh from across town is utterly normal (albeit still terrifying), none of that makes her special because that's what they expect out of a woman. What sets Julia apart and might make her super is her ability to empatize with the men of the weald. From our perspective this is trivial, but from theirs it's huge. I said many times before that the real bane of the Weald isn't Nourishment, but Pre-Nourishment, because getting powers -- however limited -- from a young age robs most women of the ability to empatize and understand the hardship men are experiencing. Even women that are exceptionally perceptive and understanding, as Ruth seem to be very often, only understand these problems on a rational and intellectual perspective. It's the same difference that there is between reading about a illness and getting infected for real. In this sense the ability to see things from the perspective of these men is Julia's actual superpower.
A huge part of the problem, and I think I've mentioned this before, is that the women have created a world in which they have all the power and none of the accountability. What I describe would be trivially easy for a nourished woman (Isn't everything?), but she'd still have to think of it. If every misunderstanding is the man's fault, why should a woman do anything different than they always have done?
And we don't really know if the intellectual approach will work; let's see how Howard is doing after a day or two with his flashcards. It's kinda fascinating (and I wonder if circes_cup did this deliberately) that Julia is able to empathize immediately with total strangers at work, but reads academic papers online to understand the one man she's supposed to know intimately.
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Pepper wrote:
Interesting analysis, and I agree that Julia's history gives her a unique perspective on how to deal with men. I still wonder if a nourished woman could achieve the same result through purely rational and intellectual means. Ruth or Kylia (the manager that Julia is replacing in Ruth's company) could have done just what Julia did when making the flashcard program for Howard. They could have read all the psychology papers, learned just what level of vocabulary would work best when interacting with male programmers, what sort of facial and verbal feedback indicates that they have maximum understanding, how often to check on their progress, whether to use a carrot or a stick as rewards, that sort of thing. I think it's telling that neither of them did.Woodclaw wrote: In a recent chat Njae pointed it out for me: in a world where everybody has powers, none is really super (misquoting Syndrome a bit). This is actually a very valid point, for the people of the weald the fact that Julia can benchpress a house or hear them sigh from across town is utterly normal (albeit still terrifying), none of that makes her special because that's what they expect out of a woman. What sets Julia apart and might make her super is her ability to empatize with the men of the weald. From our perspective this is trivial, but from theirs it's huge. I said many times before that the real bane of the Weald isn't Nourishment, but Pre-Nourishment, because getting powers -- however limited -- from a young age robs most women of the ability to empatize and understand the hardship men are experiencing. Even women that are exceptionally perceptive and understanding, as Ruth seem to be very often, only understand these problems on a rational and intellectual perspective. It's the same difference that there is between reading about a illness and getting infected for real. In this sense the ability to see things from the perspective of these men is Julia's actual superpower.
A huge part of the problem, and I think I've mentioned this before, is that the women have created a world in which they have all the power and none of the accountability. What I describe would be trivially easy for a nourished woman (Isn't everything?), but she'd still have to think of it. If every misunderstanding is the man's fault, why should a woman do anything different than they always have done?
And we don't really know if the intellectual approach will work; let's see how Howard is doing after a day or two with his flashcards. It's kinda fascinating (and I wonder if circes_cup did this deliberately) that Julia is able to empathize immediately with total strangers at work, but reads academic papers online to understand the one man she's supposed to know intimately.
I think these are all good points. The story had avoided differentiating between the women until this point, but yes, now we at starting to see how Julia and even Ruth are different from the others, and how that creates its own power. And certainly, the fact that some form of Nourishment is used even in childhood years would dampen empathy.
I thought Pepper's point Julia's empathy was an interesting one: she has a better time understanding strangers than her own boyfriend. I had not done that deliberately, but perhaps instinctively. We spend more time with our partners than anyone else in the world, but sometimes we feel that we understand them less than anyone else in the world, because we are trying to understand them on a different level.
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I have lots of thoughts on the Howard-Julia confrontation in the new chapter and might share them in a bit but really just wanted to delurk and thank circes for all the entertainment.
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Some idyll musings on Howard's free time, with Julia out of the house.
"Yes, Howard?" She answered from across the house. Her volume perfectly modulated to deliver a conversational tone through two walls and a closed door. Almost as if she were standing next to him. Spooky. And yet so typical.
He wanted to see her for this, see if her face or body would give away anything that exquisitely cultured voice concealed so artfully. He left his room and found the master of the house in the open living room, scanning a stack of papers he still found agonizingly arcane. Her business matters, most likely. Some things seemed universal. It was in fact the most human thing he'd seen the Nourished doing.
He strolled up to her. Even seated in a fully reclined lounger she was still eye-level with him standing fully erect.
"So what do you think is your mysterious benefactor's motive?" He nodded to her slightly emphasizing the difference between the her personally 'you' and the 'you' of all of Womankind in the Weald.
She cocked her head slightly, not certain what he meant, even with her hypercognition pouring over his words from a hundred different angles before he'd even drawn another breath. If he'd been a child she would have the dismissed the question as silly blather, but he clearly had a focus to his thoughts she couldn't place.
Howard wanted to chuckle at having stumped her, but admitted to himself it was probably more a cultural gap than any cunning insight on his part that had made his inquiry opaque. He was almost certainly plunging headlong into the worst imaginable social taboo. But boredom and frustration had made him reckless. Reckless enough to open up this particular gambit.
Still, seeing her expression he couldn't resist the chance to walk her through his reasoning at his pitiful male speed. "Your people are trying to fix the parasite problem the Diana trees are suffering. The source of womanly power is threatened and you're taking action. That means you don't think the Diana trees are so sacred that something like this is the will of the fates to be blindly accepted. If they aren't sacred you must of thought about how the Diana trees came to be at all. There's no way something like that evolved naturally - its too perfect. There's no loose ends. All the elements add together towards a pre-designed purpose. Someone DESIGNED the Diana trees. If you don't think the trees are the inscrutably sacred work of some Goddess or Fate, then you must have wondered WHO did it and WHY they did it. Thought about it longer and harder than some male just dropping by from another world. So again, what do you think is your mysterious benefactor's motive?"
Ruth smiled somewhat cryptically. "Well, 'Mister just dropped by', what do you think with your outsider's perspective."
Howard made a gently mocking half-bow. "This lowly male would scarcely dare to offer an opinion... but I think you'd better hope it wasn't as a test. Because its quite possible if it were, your people failed."
Ruth blinked in surprise. Her patience was wearing slightly thin, but on the other hand it was also fascinating to see a man with such unquenchable fire. For the first time she started to see why Julia took such care to nurture and cultivate her mate from the other side. She was reminded of a precious evening with her first husband and his quicksilver mind, so long ago now- 'Just because I'm not smart, that doesn't mean I'm stupid.' He had delighted in crafting puzzles and riddles for her that made even a Nourished mind dig deep to untangle them.
She'd unwound his knots in hours, structures he'd taken a month or more to create. It was still a more formidable demonstration of wit than almost any man she'd ever heard of. It was his small brilliance that had inspired here to try the current software development model that threatened to consume her. 'Just because they're not smart, that doesn't mean they're stupid.'
She missed him so much.
Howard went on, "If the Diana tree isn't natural, then its possible the parasite isn't natural either. Maybe that mysterious someone has decided to shut down this little experiment and return the world to a state more like my own. Minus the Nourished of course. From what you've described of the chemical dependency it imposes...If the parasite spreads unchecked, not many woman are going to outlive the trees."
Ruth added just the slightest bit of reproach to her tone, still unwilling to shame or break this rare creature before her. That was Julia's prerogative. "You seem in rather good spirits describing mass extinction. Do you like seeing women suffer? Withdrawal is an agonizing death. A threat looming over all of us."
"Not the part of 'us' that includes men, obviously." Howard chided her. "I'd like to think I like it less than some women here seem to like watching men die agonizing deaths. Your people could have cleared out those alligator-things in a month, but hey, if they only eat little boys, who cares about their safety? Still, its probably too big for my weak male brain to take in. Or maybe I'm still a bit bitter about having been raped within days of getting here and having my fiancé entrapped into joining the endangered species list."
"You truly want to wash your hands of this place, don't you?" Ruth asked evenly, somewhat astonished at the seething vehemence the man hid within the jocular tones.
He smiled. It wasn't a pleasant smile either. "I've never claimed otherwise. But I admit, now I'm morbidly curious to see how this plays out."
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AuGoose wrote: Finished part 21. I'm enjoying the ongoing world building. Our protagonists are a train wreck but at least they're talking to each other .
Some idyll musings on Howard's free time, with Julia out of the house.
Warning: Spoiler!"Ruth?" Of course she could hear him. He'd worked out pretty quickly that his sense privacy was an illusion. one he chose to play along with, most of the time.
"Yes, Howard?" She answered from across the house. Her volume perfectly modulated to deliver a conversational tone through two walls and a closed door. Almost as if she were standing next to him. Spooky. And yet so typical.
He wanted to see her for this, see if her face or body would give away anything that exquisitely cultured voice concealed so artfully. He left his room and found the master of the house in the open living room, scanning a stack of papers he still found agonizingly arcane. Her business matters, most likely. Some things seemed universal. It was in fact the most human thing he'd seen the Nourished doing.
He strolled up to her. Even seated in a fully reclined lounger she was still eye-level with him standing fully erect.
"So what do you think is your mysterious benefactor's motive?" He nodded to her slightly emphasizing the difference between the her personally 'you' and the 'you' of all of Womankind in the Weald.
She cocked her head slightly, not certain what he meant, even with her hypercognition pouring over his words from a hundred different angles before he'd even drawn another breath. If he'd been a child she would have the dismissed the question as silly blather, but he clearly had a focus to his thoughts she couldn't place.
Howard wanted to chuckle at having stumped her, but admitted to himself it was probably more a cultural gap than any cunning insight on his part that had made his inquiry opaque. He was almost certainly plunging headlong into the worst imaginable social taboo. But boredom and frustration had made him reckless. Reckless enough to open up this particular gambit.
Still, seeing her expression he couldn't resist the chance to walk her through his reasoning at his pitiful male speed. "Your people are trying to fix the parasite problem the Diana trees are suffering. The source of womanly power is threatened and you're taking action. That means you don't think the Diana trees are so sacred that something like this is the will of the fates to be blindly accepted. If they aren't sacred you must of thought about how the Diana trees came to be at all. There's no way something like that evolved naturally - its too perfect. There's no loose ends. All the elements add together towards a pre-designed purpose. Someone DESIGNED the Diana trees. If you don't think the trees are the inscrutably sacred work of some Goddess or Fate, then you must have wondered WHO did it and WHY they did it. Thought about it longer and harder than some male just dropping by from another world. So again, what do you think is your mysterious benefactor's motive?"
Ruth smiled somewhat cryptically. "Well, 'Mister just dropped by', what do you think with your outsider's perspective."
Howard made a gently mocking half-bow. "This lowly male would scarcely dare to offer an opinion... but I think you'd better hope it wasn't as a test. Because its quite possible if it were, your people failed."
Ruth blinked in surprise. Her patience was wearing slightly thin, but on the other hand it was also fascinating to see a man with such unquenchable fire. For the first time she started to see why Julia took such care to nurture and cultivate her mate from the other side. She was reminded of a precious evening with her first husband and his quicksilver mind, so long ago now- 'Just because I'm not smart, that doesn't mean I'm stupid.' He had delighted in crafting puzzles and riddles for her that made even a Nourished mind dig deep to untangle them.
She'd unwound his knots in hours, structures he'd taken a month or more to create. It was still a more formidable demonstration of wit than almost any man she'd ever heard of. It was his small brilliance that had inspired here to try the current software development model that threatened to consume her. 'Just because they're not smart, that doesn't mean they're stupid.'
She missed him so much.
Howard went on, "If the Diana tree isn't natural, then its possible the parasite isn't natural either. Maybe that mysterious someone has decided to shut down this little experiment and return the world to a state more like my own. Minus the Nourished of course. From what you've described of the chemical dependency it imposes...If the parasite spreads unchecked, not many woman are going to outlive the trees."
Ruth added just the slightest bit of reproach to her tone, still unwilling to shame or break this rare creature before her. That was Julia's prerogative. "You seem in rather good spirits describing mass extinction. Do you like seeing women suffer? Withdrawal is an agonizing death. A threat looming over all of us."
"Not the part of 'us' that includes men, obviously." Howard chided her. "I'd like to think I like it less than some women here seem to like watching men die agonizing deaths. Your people could have cleared out those alligator-things in a month, but hey, if they only eat little boys, who cares about their safety? Still, its probably too big for my weak male brain to take in. Or maybe I'm still a bit bitter about having been raped within days of getting here and having my fiancé entrapped into joining the endangered species list."
"You truly want to wash your hands of this place, don't you?" Ruth asked evenly, somewhat astonished at the seething vehemence the man hid within the jocular tones.
He smiled. It wasn't a pleasant smile either. "I've never claimed otherwise. But I admit, now I'm morbidly curious to see how this plays out."
I like it! Makes me want to go back and write more of a backstory for Ruth. But most importantly, it broke a logjam for me on something I wanted to do with Howard a few chapters later. Thanks!
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efelton wrote: Long time reader of the LaPorte Caves here, since it was on brawna in fact. Love the work and eagerly await each new installment.
I have lots of thoughts on the Howard-Julia confrontation in the new chapter and might share them in a bit but really just wanted to delurk and thank circes for all the entertainment.
Really glad you're enjoying it. It's gratifying for me to see that the story has brought some new voices on the forums here. Also, the story has grown bigger and more complicated than I had intended, and I'm very appreciative that a handful of readers are still enjoying it and following it twenty two chapters in!
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Julia goes in with the intention to check in with him, maybe romance him a bit, get him a cup of coffee and a back massage. Five minutes later, after staggering ineptitude she leaves him furious, humiliated and burned.
I don't think she has any excuse. Her apologies have worn thin for me. She's pulled the same move too many times for it to be accidental. Again and again she's rubbed Howard's face in the fact that he is strictly inferior to her. Now, I have no problem with her unapologetically showing him who she is. The situation between them has changed and he has to understand that. But even someone as inflexible and infuriating as Howard has pretty much got it by now. The underlying narrative to their every dialogue is an appraisal by her of his abilities and how much they now lack in comparison to her. She knows he's sensitive on this point. And yet on and on it goes. She can't help but draw attention to it. One brief conversation: he can never learn back massage as well as she can; he has only made meager progress on learning the Weald's written script; he can't distinguish the two coffees by sense of smell. (And countless, countless other examples since ch6.) I think most people would find being subjected to such treatment quite tedious. She's being a jerk!
Howard scalding his hand on the paperweight was a telling story beat for me. Could she not have stopped this from happening? Doesn't she have a super senses? She can accurately estimate altitude from air pressure, yet she can't tell the temperature of hot metal across a room. Her book learning or at least common sense would suggest that picking up the metal would be extremely damaging to Howard. Did she not realise? Having put two and two together would her catlike reflexes not have allowed her to intervene? No, I'm not buying it any more. At some level, consciously or otherwise, she wants to rub Howard's nose in it, wants him to burn his hand.
She needs to own her actions and her words. Wringing her own hands and offering to sort everything out by recourse to the Boob don't cut it any more. She needs to admit there is a pattern to her behaviour and do the work to figure out what's causing this.
I was cheering Howard on as he "slunk out" making his parting shot. He's not emotionally intelligent, not great at explaining his feelings. But he was pretty on the money here: "the less time I’m around you, the better I feel about myself."
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I don't know if I'd have put it all quite that way, but I can see where you're coming from.efelton wrote: I have not read a scene as romantically awkward as the one between Howard and Julia at the end of ch 22, since the dinner party in Lois Bujold's "A Civil Campaign" (recommended for those who read this website since the male lead is physically inferior to his romantic partners and for other reasons). For me, the story is going in Romantic comedy direction, in fact it's almost Screwball comedy. And I'm really enjoying it.
Julia goes in with the intention to check in with him, maybe romance him a bit, get him a cup of coffee and a back massage. Five minutes later, after staggering ineptitude she leaves him furious, humiliated and burned.
I don't think she has any excuse. Her apologies have worn thin for me. She's pulled the same move too many times for it to be accidental. Again and again she's rubbed Howard's face in the fact that he is strictly inferior to her. Now, I have no problem with her unapologetically showing him who she is. The situation between them has changed and he has to understand that. But even someone as inflexible and infuriating as Howard has pretty much got it by now. The underlying narrative to their every dialogue is an appraisal by her of his abilities and how much they now lack in comparison to her. She knows he's sensitive on this point. And yet on and on it goes. She can't help but draw attention to it. One brief conversation: he can never learn back massage as well as she can; he has only made meager progress on learning the Weald's written script; he can't distinguish the two coffees by sense of smell. (And countless, countless other examples since ch6.) I think most people would find being subjected to such treatment quite tedious. She's being a jerk!
Howard scalding his hand on the paperweight was a telling story beat for me. Could she not have stopped this from happening? Doesn't she have a super senses? She can accurately estimate altitude from air pressure, yet she can't tell the temperature of hot metal across a room. Her book learning or at least common sense would suggest that picking up the metal would be extremely damaging to Howard. Did she not realise? Having put two and two together would her catlike reflexes not have allowed her to intervene? No, I'm not buying it any more. At some level, consciously or otherwise, she wants to rub Howard's nose in it, wants him to burn his hand.
She needs to own her actions and her words. Wringing her own hands and offering to sort everything out by recourse to the Boob don't cut it any more. She needs to admit there is a pattern to her behaviour and do the work to figure out what's causing this.
I was cheering Howard on as he "slunk out" making his parting shot. He's not emotionally intelligent, not great at explaining his feelings. But he was pretty on the money here: "the less time I’m around you, the better I feel about myself."
It's just really hard to figure Julia out. She apologizes for hurting Howard, but keeps finding new ways to do it. She shows contempt for men when they make mistakes, but shrugs off her own. She won't use her pheromones on Howard, and says she won't tie him up again, but then forces him to drink milk that controls his thoughts and actions in other ways. She seemed to have taken a step toward more understanding in chapter 21, but now she's back to being hurtful, whether she means to or not.
All of which is understandable, really. She's in a different world, a different culture, even a different body; of course she's going to take a while to find her new identity. She wants to have the best of her old life and the best of her new one. But yeah, if she wants to be seen as strong, capable, and in charge then she's got to own the consequences of her actions, even when things don't turn out perfectly.
So I'm curious to see how she responds to this last interaction with Howard. Will she be hurt, sympathetic, angry? Will she dose Howard with the milk again to try and "fix" things? Will she appreciate his courage and stubbornness, or will she continue to try and train those things out of him? This story could still go a lot of different ways.
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- Pepper
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In a world where 90% of the population are men, that empathy could translate in more power for Julia. What Howard wants the least, is more power for her. Part of his denial and judgmental behavior was to refrain her from being enchanted by her new powers, especially, over him.
And that defiance only made Julia to embrace harder her new being.
I don't think that his last phrase in ch.22 is actually about Julia, or the relationship, it is about Howard figuring out he can't win.
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- lowerbase
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It's really good, and I agree with Lowerbase about that final phrase of Howard. Is he starting to accept his condition??
Let's hope that Julia and Howard can resolve their couple problems.
Great job
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- Sam+Norton
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- circes_cup
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circes_cup wrote: Thanks for the great debate and discussion, guys. I will be away from a computer on Friday, so I am posting Ch 23 a bit early. Hope you enjoy.
The chapter is on now.
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- Woodclaw
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It's nice to see that Howard and Julia still have a connection (Julia still thinks of him as a great man, and Howard tries, risking his life, to wake her up during her nightmare). Let's hope their relationship return more stable, even with Julia creating her harem.
I'm curious about two things: What did the women want for Bendjimon in the complex? And also, the mysterious infection of the Diana trees.
Can't wait for next chapters.
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- Sam+Norton
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As always, really enjoying this well spun tale!!
It still seems like Julia takes one step forward and two steps backwards every time she tries to help or interact with Howard. Her work for Ruth on the software project gave her money, a feeling of power and leadership that she did not previously have, and of course lots of men to screw!! She could relate to them because of her background, but she still cannot figure out how to deal with Howard. I do think a important realization for her occurred during her talk with Jofri:
"He pressed his fingers into of her abdomen, receiving no more give than he did on her arm. It was like playing with a rock wall. He felt his insides becoming the opposite, a gelatinous mass of aching need. “You said you used to be like us, stupid and weak, miss?”
“Julia,” she corrected. “And you’re not stupid and weak. You only seem that way when you are placed side-by-side with a Nourished. But in reality, you’re normal and normal. And yes, I used to be that way too.”"
Realizing that the men in the Weald and Howard are not weak, stupid or pathetic, but actually normal and that the Nourished are the abnormal humans is huge change in point of view.
But after this, she still screws things up by burning Howard's hand with the paperweight and his last statement in Chapter 22 is not encouraging.
It will be interesting to see how long Julia hides her claiming of Bendjimon from Howard, and when he does find out how it goes down. He knows she is sleeping with other men, as that is what the Nourished do. But to claim Bendjimon, the one she told Howard was a better lover and had a bigger cock than Howard just before the crow bar/swamp episode may be a little much for Howard to stomach.
Looking forward to more chapters when they come.
Thanks again Circes for this wonderful tale.
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- twitch99
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Yeah, but she then tells Bendjimon that the things that are important about him are his heart and his cock. Her respect for men ain't exactly off the chart.twitch99 wrote: I do think a important realization for her occurred during her talk with Jofri:
"He pressed his fingers into of her abdomen, receiving no more give than he did on her arm. It was like playing with a rock wall. He felt his insides becoming the opposite, a gelatinous mass of aching need. “You said you used to be like us, stupid and weak, miss?”
“Julia,” she corrected. “And you’re not stupid and weak. You only seem that way when you are placed side-by-side with a Nourished. But in reality, you’re normal and normal. And yes, I used to be that way too.”"
Realizing that the men in the Weald and Howard are not weak, stupid or pathetic, but actually normal and that the Nourished are the abnormal humans is huge change in point of view.
There's that, but I wonder if she'll tell him the circumstances that led to her claiming Bendjimon. He was about to be tortured and killed by a dozen women. Julia was on the verge of walking away, and would have if it hadn't been someone she knew. She's been portraying this to Howard as just a different culture ("we're in their world, we should adopt their ways"); does she now tell him that this is a place that condones brutality? It's one thing for Howard to struggle, and against great obstacles, to maintain his relationship with Julia, but I wouldn't blame him a bit if he started to ask himself why. At some point, will she become someone that he doesn't love and sees no reason to be with?It will be interesting to see how long Julia hides her claiming of Bendjimon from Howard, and when he does find out how it goes down. He knows she is sleeping with other men, as that is what the Nourished do. But to claim Bendjimon, the one she told Howard was a better lover and had a bigger cock than Howard just before the crow bar/swamp episode may be a little much for Howard to stomach.
Agreed.Looking forward to more chapters when they come.
Thanks again Circes for this wonderful tale.
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- Pepper
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To the degree that readers are confused about what's really going on in Julia's head, I can say two things. First, people are mixed bags -- we all have great moments and less-than-great moments, and I am comfortable presenting people as mixtures of kindness and cruelty, discipline and impulsiveness, etc.
However, some of the confusion I have to own as well, as I may have been inconsistent or imprecise in my renderings of the characters from chapter to chapter. I'm still learning my way through this writing thing, and it's particularly challenging to be writing this story in little snippets rather than dedicate a whole day to it as professional writers do. So, if you find yourself wondering why Julia did X in one chapter and Y in the next, perhaps you missed something in the text, or perhaps it was me. When this is all over, I may take some time to comb back through it all and see whether certain parts need to be cleaned up.
Final note: I am traveling through Fri May 5 and will have access only to an old clunky ipad. It performs poorly on these forum posts, on DA and now even on Google Drive. So, if I fail to participate over the next two weeks, you know why. Also, my lack of good browsing capabilities over the next two weeks is the reason I posted Ch 23 early.
.
Happy reading!
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- circes_cup
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Just posted Ch. 24.
I've decided to write the remainder of the story (ie, all the way to the end) before posting any more chapters. It may be a while, therefore, before you see Ch 25.
If you want to see the draft material as it's coming together, send me a note using the PM/note function on this platform and we can discuss. Otherwise, I'll let you know when the remainder of the story is ready for prime time.
Peace,
Circes
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- circes_cup
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